Dear Russ and all, you have posed a very good question that I wish to extend to other Relics of Christ. And I want to remember that the truth is not in the middle when treating Objects related to God.
From the counting of the C14 atoms in physical objects, the labs PROPOSED the dates of some Relics of Christ. I know the following dates ASSIGNED to the relative objects reported below at 95% confidence level:
- Turin Shroud: 1260-1390, mean 1353 A D;
- Titulus Crucis: 980-1150, mean 1065 A D;
- Tunique of Argenteuil: 530-650 and 670-880, means 590 and 775 A D;
- Oviedo Sudarion: 653-786 and 642-869, means 720 and 755 A D.
I want to underline that the labs implicitly PROPOSED the dates (even if perhaps they did not admit it) but they did not determine the dates because in all the mentioned cases the radiocarbon method did not satisfy one postulate posed by Libby (the inventor of the method): all the environmental factors MUST be known from the birth of the living being that composed the object under analysis.
I don’t know of other objects related to Jesus Christ that were dated using C14. On the basis of these data, the following conclusion can be reached. There are two different possibilities that have to be scientifically evaluated.
-A. All the known Relics of Christ are false and they were made in a period between about 700 AD and 1300 AD. The millions of Christian believers that from centuries did venerate and still venerate these object were so stupid and dupe to believe in the words of some forger that, with the aid of the Christian Catholic Church presented as true false Relics. The Christian Catholic Church used and uses the popular credulity for its purposes allowing public Exhibitions of these false objects. In conclusion it’s all a swindle (but a swindle not yet explainable by Science).
Corollary: how much stupid are the SSG Members that discuss from 2002 problems related to a big fake?
-B. All the four tested Relics of Christ are not false but the relative radiocarbon results are false because they did not take into account for some environmental factor that changed the percentage of C14 in the matter posed in concomitance of the Body of Jesus Christ.
A scientific proof is the fact that ALL the scientific results relative to the TS but the radiocarbon dating are in agreement with the hypothesis that the TS enveloped the Body of the Resurrected.
The radiocarbon results are the scientific independent proof that "something" not yet well detected by science surrounds particular human bodies like Jesus Christ but not only Him. The problem is now to detect and quantify this "something". And some suggestion can be taken from some results (not yet still detected and quantified in a sufficient form) measured at Medjugorje during some apparition of the Mother of God.
Corollary: the radiocarbon dating method can be the mean that will scientifically test the presence of some supernatural factor.
Without any doubt I opt for Point "B". At least this is my way of thinking.
Giulio is a good friend but that doesn’t mean we agree. If the shroud and the sudarium can be connected – and I think they can – then we might have some explaining to do. But, aren’t there already identified issues with each of these tests. What do you think?
I know many people will not love what I will say here, but I don’t care ! I’m not here to make friends but to express my point of view !
I just want to say this : In science, every conclusion MUST have a scientific confirmation from AN INDEPENDENT researcher or research team. In Shroud science, IT IS EXTREMELY HARD to find this kind of independence of mind because almost every scientist who’s interested in the Shroud believe it is the genuine Shroud of Christ and have some preconceptions ideas about the subject. I don’t think we can say that this work of Marion found his scientifically independent confirmation yet !
And sorry, but many of those kind of articles and researches about those kind of images (flowers and coins) are often done to confort the agenda that is to prove the resurrection using the Shroud. Why ? Because it is proven that the Corona discharge can produce an image of coins on linen. So the stretch isn’t to long to associate the image of coins produced by Corona discharge and the resurrection of Christ ! I think there’s a real danger of biais there.
I dream of the day when Shroud science will be lead by atheists or agnostics scientists who DON’T CARE ONE BIT about the Shroud being authentic. Understand me, here I’m not talking about the Walter McCrone of this world but I’m talking about honest scientist who have no preconception about the Shroud (like the majority of the STURP members were by the way). Now, that would be science we can trust because it would not be agenda driven.
And, I think Ray Schneider said it well the other day when he state : “The best of the “enhancements” do present the impression of elements of the Pilate coin, however the elements seem to be out of placement and not in the correct scale, so it may well simply be a case of similarity and not a real image at all. Remember that the folks doing the processing were looking for a particular appearance so there is a selection phenomenon at work which will drive the process to the best apparent fit.”
I think the last phrase is very true even when Marion pretend his method avoid every subjective interpretation. I’m not so sure about that because he knew what he was lookin for and I’m pretty convinced that he wanted badly to find it. By the way, this guy Marion worked with Barbara Frele and both believe also that the ghost writtings represent Jesus death certificate ! So, if you don’t see an agenda behind those claims, you could at least agree with me that there is something fishy about all those researches…
I agree. See the full discussion at Paper Chase: Sight and Brain and Shroud of Turin Images « Shroud of Turin Blog
Experts say that ‘The Shroud Of Michael Jackson’ being offered for auction on eBay is a fake. The shroud, a white cotton sheet, is said to contain a ghastly (Ghostly – Ed) image of the singer’s body.
"They lifted the idea from the Shroud Of Turin," an expert said yesterday. "But it’s just a hoax."
I’m sure Max will have something to say about this.
Publishers Weekly recently reported that we are in the midst of a “Digital Bible Explosion.” Apps of the Bible are now more frequently downloaded than Angry Birds, and the sacred texts of other religions aren’t far behind: there’s an iQuran, iTorah, and a digital Book of Mormon. There are devotional apps of other sorts as well. For Catholics, there’s EZPray, the Vatican-endorsed iBreviary, and Confession (which leads you through a personalized “examination of conscience” to prepare you for the sacrament); for Muslims, there’s Islamic Compass, which promises to give “the most accurate prayer times”; for Jews, there’s a combination Siddur and Zmanim; for Protestants, there’s Daily Jesus (a daily quote generator), Bible Blocks (a Tetris-like game that rewards players with a Bible verse between levels), and my favorite, Granny’s Bible Dojo (Granny cracks boards with karate chops, and helps you learn the order of the books of the Bible).
We definitely need a Shroud of Turin app; maybe one that lets us look for images of coins and flowers while riding on the subway.
Do read Sight and brain: an introduction to the visually misleading images by Daniele Murra and Paolo Di Lazzaro:
. . . We should consider this “subjectivity risk" when using computer tools to elaborate images, because we may generally have the propensity to make visible something that we want to see but that is not embedded in the original image.
Concerning the scientific approach to the acheiropoietos images, only reproducible experiments are scientifically acceptable.
Interpretations of shapes, coins, faces, flowers or letters “seen” on acheiropoietos images by means of image processing tools should be considered a track useful to address further studies, but they cannot be considered as self-consistent proofs.
It is a short paper, wonderfully informative and easy to read and understand.
The Georgian Messenger was originally published during the time of the first Georgian independent democratic republic (1918-1921). On February 25, 1921, Russian Bolsheviks occupied Georgia and after that it was published only irregularly. Now it is published regularly. And from its pages we learn that:
[The Chairman of the Parliament of Georgia, David] Bakradze, along with the Metropolitan of Akhalkalaki and Kumurdo Diocese, Nikoloz, visited the St. Archangel Michael Nunnery, where a copy of the Turin shroud is engraved. There is a 3D image of Jesus Christ depicted on the shroud and it is considered evidence of the passion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Glad that in that part of the world, journalist don’t need to go through the tiresome skeptical drill.
. . . The lituus seems to show an horizontal orientation, at variance with the reports by Filas and others.
Note however, that the characters seem to be composed of thread itself; they are not imprinted on the shroud, but they seem to be formed by the woven textile as such. As a matter of fact, it is possible (for instance) to detect al lot of A’s on other parts of the shroud.
So there seems to be some evidence, but it is very weak. . . .
READ THE ENTIRE LETTER: Be fair to Jos Verhulst and to yourself and read the entire email and look at the large images below the fold by clicking on Read More. This is the best analysis I have seen in many years.