
I don’t often ask readers to simply go read something on another blog, but today I am. Hugh Farey has published a letter he received in response to a recent debate on the Shroud — a letter signed “A Reasonable Person.” Many of us can guess who the writer is, and I shall not mention his name.
Note: It looks familiar, like comments I used to receive leading me to ban realseekersministries . . . (Danny Boy, I know you unjustly banned me from your site–he recently wrote) . . . you get the idea.
You can read it here:
Go read it before you read anything else I have to say about it. It looks familiar, like content I once received as comments leading me to . . . (Danny Boy, I know you unjustly banned me from your site).
I have spent many years on this subject, and I have watched authenticists, skeptics, and the genuinely undecided argue with one another — sometimes sharply, occasionally unfairly, but rarely like this. This letter calls Hugh a “corrupt, crooked, deceitful, disgusting, lying sack of garbage.” It accuses him of being a fake Christian for daring to question a fellow believer. It dismisses the sincerely held views of millions of people — anyone who isn’t Christian, and even plenty of Christians who happen to disagree — as, by definition, unreasonable. This is not argument. It’s not even close to argument.
And it does damage well beyond those involved. It’s a shame — a genuine shame — because this kind of letter reflects badly on everyone who takes Shroud research seriously, whatever conclusion they’ve reached. It’s bad for authenticists, who are real scholars and have real arguments and don’t need this attached to their cause. It’s bad for skeptics, who get painted as the sole source of incivility in this field when the record plainly shows otherwise. And it’s bad for the people in the middle — the ones sincerely trying to work out what’s true — who now have one more reason to conclude that the whole subject attracts more heat than light.
I’ll say plainly what I think needs to happen. The author should rescind this letter and apologize to Hugh Farey, publicly and without qualification. And if he doesn’t, others in the authenticist community who value their own credibility should say so clearly, rather than staying silent or making excuses for him. Silence here isn’t neutral. As Hugh himself noted, quoting the old legal maxim, qui tacet consentire videtur — silence is taken for consent.
I’d go further. Language that declares an entire class of people — non-Christians, or Christians who read the evidence differently — inherently unreasonable simply because of what they believe, isn’t just uncivil. It borders on religious bigotry, and it should be named as such.
Here is the comment I left on Hugh’s site:
Hugh,
Thank you for handling this with more grace than most of us could have managed. Reading Glover’s letter, what struck me wasn’t the anger itself but its shape — it’s the kind of fury that usually comes from somewhere closer to home than the target lets on. People rarely explode like that over a position they hold with quiet confidence. That kind of vehemence tends to show up when a belief someone has built a large part of their identity around starts to feel less solid than they can afford to admit, even to themselves.
I don’t say that to diagnose the man, only to note the pattern. A genuinely settled conviction doesn’t usually need to call its critics “epistemic inferiors” or “satanically induced.” That’s the language of someone defending a position he’s afraid to look at too closely.
Take care, Dan
Read the letter. Decide for yourself whether this is what the Shroud debate should look like — and whether silence, this time, is really the answer.
Hi, Dan,
Please show us the evidence that this letter was ever actually a written letter from Dale to Hugh.
Dale denies that he has written such a letter to Hugh.
My understanding from Dale is that this is a patchwork of things he has said. Again, Dale can’t respond directly to you and Hugh as the two of you have banned him from posting on your respective websites. I don’t have time right now to listen to that entire show of Dale’s. Y’all are making the claim–so, prove it, otherwise be guilty of making defamatory claims.
And, you have (on a number of occasions) piggy-backed on Hugh’s postings on his blog–so, it’s not like this is a rare thing. The most recent piggy-back (other than this) was with regard to me and Gregory Referendarius’ sermon. Y’all like to work in tandem.
Best regards,
Teddi
Colleagues.
Listen to the harangue called “Shroud Wars Debate Review- Miracle vs. Man (Part 2)- Reviewing Hugh Farey’s Blog & Kevin’s Question,” on the Real Seekers podcast site. It’s true that it does not begin “Dear Hugh,” nor conclude with “A Reasonable Person,” but it is a direct address to me, and every word of my précis is a direct quote from it, although Glover refers to me in the third person rather than the second.
The podcast is all the evidence Teddi is asking for, and all the evidence you need. If you pretend you don’t have the time to wade through it, then you shouldn’t have the gall to comment on it. If you do listen to it, you will concur that the language of the podcast is intolerable, regardless of what you think of the arguments, feebler though they be, and must be called out as such. Not to do so, or worse, actually to support such language, drags the commenter down to the level of the speaker, and condemns the Shroud forever to academic ignominity.
Best wishes,
Hugh
Hi, Hugh,
YOU are the one who has dragged me into this by mentioning my name in your post.
Specifically, you stated: “What does she [Teddi] think about the language of her host? Will she support it or condemn it, or ignore it altogether, which is much the same thing. Qui tacit consenter videtur, as every lawyer knows.”
I don’t owe you my time in listening to a 1 hour and 46 minute podcast.
I’m not weighing in on whether or not Dale made these intermittent verbal, off-the-cuff statements. I’m weighing in on the deceptive appearance–which is shown to be deceptive as at least two people have now been deceived by this–that Dale WROTE you such a letter.
There IS a difference between off-the-cuff statements and those which someone writes in a letter and sends.
And, the imaginary letter that you posted from Dale is causing people to think that Dale WROTE these things to you in a letter–where it’s just one thing after another (when, I’m guessing, you’ve just PATCHED a bunch of intermittent statements together–one after another.
You should clarify if all of this is one direct, streaming quote or if you’ve patched up a bunch of quotes into a quilt of sorts.
There is no general legal or moral duty that people have to speak out against everything other people say that they disagree with–lest a failure to respond means that they agree with all of the statements that people make.
And, again, (as I mentioned in the comment section on your website), I don’t have a duty to come to your defense–especially when you approach many Shroud matters with “unclean hands” and when you are attempting to manipulate me into doing so–especially for a damaging purpose.
Best regards,
Teddi
Reposting my comment here that I just posted on Hugh’s website:
Hi, Hugh,
Well, as is often the case, curiosity got the better of me. So, while I was cooking dinner, I listened to the review show in question at 2x speed in order to hear it all out. I’m very happy that you urged me to listen to it as I found that–by far–it was a really great show with lots of great, smart commentary and rebuttals by Dale.
In a show that went on for about 1 hour and 46 minutes, it was mostly around 1.5 hours that Dale started getting noticeably angry as he was rebutting a lot of B.S. attacks from both you and rude, aggressive commenters on James Fodor’s channel. Dale gets into the details of them in the show–I’m not going to take the time to quote them all. But, when one is constantly under attack, it can bring out the honey-badger in a person–provided that one has the chops to be a honey-badger.
Some of the ad hominems that Dale was issuing were quite colorful, but, Hugh, you’re not exactly a stranger to making rather colorful and vicious attacks against others–you just use a different style than Dale. But, that doesn’t really make it any different in any real sort of way. And, Dale was quite incited because of lies that were being said–again, people should just listen to the show. So, it is what it is.
I’m neither his mother nor Big Sister. Also, Dale noticed that he was getting quite angry towards the end of the show, and he then decided that it was time for him to just stop with that.
But, despite some of the name-calling, there was a tremendous amount of really great information in this show, and it’s worth everyone’s taking a listen to it.
Best regards,
Teddi
You don’t owe me anything, Teddi. You owed to yourself to listen to what I was criticising, and to decide whether the authenticity argument was supported or undermined by the presentation.
I have no doubt that any authenticist drawn to listen to it themselves will be dismayed by it, even if they think the arguments sound.
Except yourself, it seems. Well, that’s OK. I have pleaded the authenticist cause long enough.
=============
Technical note.
I wrote my criticism in the form of a personal letter entirely deliberately, because it was in the form of a personal attack in a public forum that I was called a scheming, lying snake and corrupt, crooked, deceitful, disgusting, lying sack of garbage. I signed it ‘a reasonable person.’ Nobody who hadn’t listened to the ‘reasonable person’ spewing this filth could have known I was quoting, verbatim, from Dale Glover, unless they had heard the podcast or read the paragraph after it, where they saw that “Glover took to the microphone to redefine his definition of a reasonable person, to explain that he was misunderstood because he hadn’t had time to express himself clearly, to misquote and misapply things I and others have said during interviews, and above all to resort to the abusive language above.” No person “of ordinary prudence” could have interpreted this to mean that I had been sent a handwritten letter, nor that I had sent a handwritten letter (for my response was headed, “Dear Reasonable Person”) in return.
Hi, Hugh,
I don’t think that anyone thought Dale sent you a “handwritten” letter–but an email. And, by your definition, I guess Dan Porter and the other guy in your comment section–who totally thought that Dale sent you an email with all of this–are not people of “ordinary prudence.” Look at Dan’s post here where he opens with: “Hugh Farey has published a letter he received in response to a recent debate on the Shroud — a letter signed “A Reasonable Person.” Many of us can guess who the writer is, and I shall not mention his name.”
Regarding whether the show Dale did supports the authenticity position, it absolutely does. Would I have preferred for Dale to have kept his temper a bit more under control? Well, sure. But, do people have a right to get angry and “spout off” when they keep getting attacked–especially when it’s not just by one person but a horde of vicious YouTube commenters on James’ channel? Well, yes, they do and, towards the end of the show–he definitely “spouted off.”
While it’s often best to keep things cool and professional, there’s often something so totally synthetic about it. When people say what they mean, it’s often quite uncivil–and that’s why people conceal what they think on a regular basis. Are you a nicer guy when you deliver your blows with a velvet glove? I don’t think so. For better or for worse, Dale was being fully candid.
Best regards,
Teddi
Hugh,
Perhaps, as Teddi writes, I’m not someone of “ordinary prudence” myself — I was, after all, taken in by your effective literary trick. If Dale really is the philosopher he claims to be, he might recognize literary-trick Cleanthes, the persona who carries the argument from design in Hume’s Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion.
Regardless, I stand by my assessment. Perhaps it isn’t the letter Dale didn’t write so much as the conduct on his show that borders on religious bigotry — I haven’t watched it myself; I don’t have the stomach for that kind of shenanigans, so I did not recognize the pattern for what it was until I saw it in writing. But Dale and those who gleefully join in the banter do a real disservice to authenticists and to everyone who only wants to find the truth, wherever it leads.
There is no place for reality-denial, conspiracy theory, made-up science, unbridled anger, and insults.
You rightly asked: does Dale speak for us? For the Shroud? For Christ?
No on the first two and seemingly not on the third. But he could. I’ll add one more question — will he go on his show, apologize, and turn over a new leaf?
Take care,
Dan
I piggyback because Hugh’s thinking is right-on.
Hi, Dan,
I see that there is still no apology to Dale for your defamatory blogpost which continues to mislead people. Not everyone reads the comments section—so your mere back-tracking “in fine print” doesn’t amount to much if anything.
Will Hugh chastise you for writing a whole condemning blog post about a fake letter that Dale never wrote when you never even bothered to listen Dale’s show? Of course he won’t, because the two of you are like fish and chips (with loads of vinegar.)
You really shouldn’t trust what Hugh writes without first verifying it for yourself—and before you devote a blogpost to it.
Your stomach has been strong enough to handle Hugh’s attacks on others—and without your condemning it—so, methinks that you are guilty of a double-standard and for privileging style over substance.
True civility isn’t just treating an insult as if it were a pig and then putting lipstick on it. That’s how you and Hugh often deliver your incivilities. No, real civility REFRAINS from that entirely. As a result, civility trades honesty for false peace. Sometimes, people just want to express their honest thoughts and feelings—and if that is what they want to do, they have the God-given ability to do it..
Best regards,
Teddi
Additionally, it is ridiculous to think that just because Dale uttered some very unvarnished ad hominems against Hugh and some vicious YouTube commenters, that his show wasn’t packed with a tremendous amount of excellent, substantive information about the Shroud and rebuttals for attacks made against its authenticity—because, it was.
Name one.
Teddi,
Thank you for taking the time to write, and for saying what you think plainly.
I don’t think an apology to Dale is warranted for the substance of the post. I stand by the criticism itself. But you’re right that I made a mistake in how I characterized the source — I believed it was a letter when it was actually a collection of nasty things Dale said on his broadcast. That’s on me, and I’ll correct it. I’m also thinking of retitling the piece “Trash Talk That Should Shame Us All.”
Dan