Does it Matter if the Shroud is a Fake?

imageThe BBC has published an interesting presentation by Caroline Wyatt on their iWonder website. Click on the image or HERE to see it.

Tens of millions of pilgrims – including several popes – have visited the Shroud of Turin. This mysterious and celebrated cloth has provoked both controversy and devotion.

While devotees believe it is Jesus’ burial cloth, others are convinced it’s a medieval forgery. Whatever the truth behind their origins, why do some objects like the shroud generate such devotion and awe among believers?

22 thoughts on “Does it Matter if the Shroud is a Fake?”

  1. Our Almighty God did not create a 3 D image of Jesus revealing the most important time in world history for ALL to SEE, for no REASON.

    If we read John 3:16 we truly understand why God preserved a 3 D image of Jesus.

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9. King James Bible

    What more evidence do we need to believe, repent, FOLLOW Jesus and be SAVED?

        1. 100’s of the BEST scientists on the planet have already proved the Shroud is the same cloth as told in the gospel of John 19 – 20.

          Please read the 100’s of peer reviewed, scientific, facts, papers and evidence proving the visible and physical evidences of the crucifixion, death, and the ultimate Resurrection of Jesus (Yeshua) meaning Salvation.
          Researched by the best researchers, experts and scientists in the world, proving the facts of God’s love for ALL humans, by sending Jesus who suffered severe pain and punishment by being whipped and nailed to a cross. NOT to condemn us. NO. But to save us. ALL HERE

  2. It’s a nice little piece, reasonably balanced for the bbc ( which usually seems to take an ultra atheistic view of things). Not totally accurate though eg. Names Charles Freeman as a scientist!!!!

    1. Very strange, especially as I spent some time with a researcher and producer from BBC HISTORY the other day, but the BBC is so big that everyone operates independently of each other.

  3. Had nothing been left, Jesus would still be the Anointed One and His atoning death would still cover our sins. “A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign.”

      1. This is not the forum for dueling with scripture quotations or for link farming. In the above comment, I removed the quotation and the link to your lengthy prophecies in the Bible compendium.

        1. By the same token, you should not let Piero get away with his lengthy cut-and-paste entries. He should just let a link stand for his unusually obtuse entries.

  4. Here a strange question (and you can try to answer):
    What has to do with the Shroud (and our friend
    John Klotz!) the recent (and further) evidence for
    the existence of pentaquarks?

    Large Hadron Collider discovers new pentaquark particle.
    >Scientists at the Large Hadron Collider have announced
    the discovery of a new particle called the pentaquark.
    >It was first predicted to exist in the 1960s but, much
    like the Higgs boson particle before it, the pentaquark
    eluded science for decades until its detection at the LHC.
    >The discovery, which amounts to a new form of matter,
    was made by the Hadron Collider’s LHCb experiment. …


    Here an old evidence:
    >July 21, 2003–At the Conference on the Intersections of
    Particle and Nuclear Physics held May 2003 in New York City,
    researcher Stepan Stepanyan from the DOE Office of
    Science’s Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility
    revealed the most convincing evidence yet of a subatomic
    particle consisting of five quarks.
    >He was representing his CLAS (CEBAF Large Acceptance
    Spectrometer) collaboration, a multi-national group of
    researchers, as he presented Jefferson Lab research
    supporting the existence of the “pentaquark.”
    CEBAF–Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility–is an
    Office of Science national user facility managed and
    operated by Jefferson Laboratory. … …

    — —
    Was the Corpse transformed in “new form of matter”?
    I don’t believe in that strange idea, but I would
    to deepen around the question of the …”new form of matter”…
    and the “Sign of the Shroud”…

    1. >LHCb spokesperson Guy Wilkinson commented:
      “The pentaquark is not just any new particle…
      It represents a way to aggregate quarks, namely
      the fundamental constituents of ordinary protons and
      neutrons, in a pattern that has never been observed
      before in over fifty years of experimental searches.
      >”Studying its properties may allow us to understand
      better how ordinary matter, the protons and neutrons
      from which we’re all made, is constituted.”


      Understanding the structure of matter it has been revolutionized
      in 1964 when the American physicist Murray Gell-Mann
      proposed the theory on the structure of matter,
      according to which the particles that form the nucleus of
      the atom (protons and neutrons) are made up of
      three quarks while another class of particles, mesons,
      are made of quark-antiquark pairs.
      — —
      >In 2003 came experimental evidence of a
      five-quark combination which is being called a
      >Strong evidence for the pentaquark came
      from experiments at the Jefferson Lab in
      Newport News, Virginia during 2003.
      >The experiments involved multi-GeV photons
      impacting a deuterium target.
      >The evidence showed a five-quark baryon state
      at a mass of 1.54 GeV with a narrow width of 22 MeV.
      >The new particle is being called Theta-plus,
      with a composition of two up quarks, two down
      quarks and an anti-strange quark.
      >The combination of quark charges +2/3(u), -1/3 (d)
      and 1/3 (anti-strange) gives a net charge of +1.
      >The lifetime of the particle is about 10-20 seconds.
      >The decay is classified as a strong interaction decay
      to a neutron and a K+ meson


      So, I think that we need to update our old knowledges…

    2. Piero, Thanks for the update on the LHC which I’ve been neglecting of late. Doubtless we will eventually see an entirely new batch of technologies develop when all the new data becomes more widely known. The pentaquark would still seem to be the same matter common in our own universe, just a different combination of quarks. I tend to see the resurrected body as made up of an entirely different as yet unknown kind of matter, existing in a different universe, of which our own universe may be a subset. Dark matter which is abundant throughout the universe as yet remains a mystery. Interestingly, two, three and five are Fibonacci numbers which are pervasive throughout nature, either singly or in pairs. I wonder if there might be an octoquark?

  5. You wrote: “I tend to see the resurrected body as
    made up of an entirely different as yet unknown kind
    of matter, existing in a different universe, of which
    our own universe may be a subset. …”
    It’s an interesting idea.
    But a bit heretic, IMO…
    An “unknown kind of matter” seems to be too limited
    (with respect to the infinite power of God…) about the
    final transformation for the Corpse/Body.
    Also the resurrection in “another universe” (“multiverse”?)
    seem to be a sort of mocking result… because this new universe
    can be uncomprehensible for us. This seems to be near a
    sort of “recycled buddhism” = a rebirth, not in this poor world,
    but in another universe that can be a bit unknown (So …
    Is that “universe” the Purgatory? Was the Manoppelo’s Face
    the message from the journey through the Purgatory?
    Jesus saved the souls of the Purgatory and this Face
    is the result of our perception … but we are not yet able
    to understand the true meaning?). Probably it is better
    what the Christian Tradition taught, with three
    different cases : Paradise, Purgatory and Hell…
    In my opinion we cannot try to compute, microscopically
    or macroscopically, the power of God-Father when
    He (…with and through the Holy Spirit) resurrected
    from the death His Son… This is a religious
    question and (IMO) atoms, nuclear particles,
    quarks or strings are far from that problem…
    In any case I am curious to see what kind of results
    will be obtained from true advanced controls…

    We can also discuss whether the body has passed
    through a phase of dematerialization perhaps involving
    the formation of antimatter or new states of matter,
    the non-ordinary states (with very short life span).
    But the question for the moment is only completely
    theoretical. In principle I am opposed to this idea of
    dematerialization with transient phases.
    But I can not exclude it, in fact, we have not yet
    at hand concrete results derived from advanced
    controls (with SPM, etc.) of those colored thin layers which
    then form the Body Image on the Shroud.
    — *** — *** —
    Penta Quark: particle consisting of five quarks.
    Octoquark: particle consisting of eight quarks.

    I have found the word octoquark in the following phrase:
    >…In addition one can look for the corresponding octoquark states uuduudcc state in pp scattering at GSI.

    Transversity 2005: Como, Ilay, 7-10 September 2005
    Di Dr. Vincenzo Barone,Philip G. Ratcliffe

    >As part of a Ministry-funded inter-university Research Project, this workshop was organised to gather together experimentalists and theoreticians engaged in investigating the nature of transverse spin in hadronic physics, with the intent of favouring the exchange of up-to-date theoretical and experimental ideas and news on the subject. Over 70 physicists took part and very nearly all the major experiments involved in transverse-spin studies were officially represented, as too were the main theory groups working in the field. New results and new analyses sparked many interesting and lively discussions.

    See also:
    The hexaquark-flavoured antiK-N-N state computed microscopically with a clusterized octoquark.
    P. Bicudo
    (Submitted on 13 Apr 2008)

    The possible production processes of the antiK-NN are explored. We derive microscopically, with the RGM, the microscopic derivation of the K-N and antiK-N interactions. We discuss the binding or not binding of the different antiK-N and antiK-NN systems. When binding occurs, the respective decay widths are also discussed.

    Note: Talk given at 11th International Conference on Meson-Nucleon Physics and the Structure of the Nucleon (MENU 2007), Julich, Germany, 10-14 Sep 2007. In the Proceedings of 11th International Conference on Meson-Nucleon Physics and the Structure of the Nucleon (MENU 2007), Julich, Germany, 10-14 Sep 2007, pp 131.

    — —
    Quark-Antiquark Combinations.
    Let’s note by q = quark 0 {Up, Down, Top, Bottom, Strange, Charm},
    and by a = antiquark 0 {Up^, Down^, Top^, Bottom^, Strange^, Charm^}.


    Click to access unmatter-definitions.pdf

    Then, we can try to see the “Quark-Antiquark Combinations”
    at p. 7 (of 10):
    >… – if n = 2, we have: qa (biquark – for example the mesons and antimesons);
    >- if n = 3, we have qqq, aaa (triquark – for example the baryons and antibaryons);
    … … …
    >- if n = 5, we have qqqqa, aaaaq (pentaquark);
    … … …
    >- if n = 8, we have qqqqaaaa, qqqqqqaa, qqaaaaaa (octoquark);
    … … …
    >- if n = 10, we have qqqqqaaaaa, qqqqqqqqaa, qqaaaaaaaa (decaquark);

    Under the same address:

    Click to access unmatter-definitions.pdf

    we can read:

    >Unmatter Combinations.
    – For combinations of 2 we have: qa (unmatter biquark), [mesons and antimesons]; the number of all possible unmatter combinations will be 6·6 = 36, but not all of them will
    bind together.

    – For combinations of 5 we have:
    qqqqa, or aaaaq (unmatter pentaquarks);
    the number of all possible unmatter
    combinations will be
    64·6+64·6 = 15,552,
    but not all of them will bind together

    – For combinations of 8 we have:
    qqqqaaaa, qqqqqqqa, qaaaaaaa (unmatter octoquarks);
    the number of all possible unmatter
    combinations will be
    64·64 + 67·61 + 61·67 = 5,038,848,
    but not all of them will bind together.

    Unmatter =
    a new kind of matter whose atoms include both nucleons and antinucleons, with a very short life span of no more than 10 ^-20 sec.
    Stable states of unmatter can be built on quarks and anti-quarks: applying the unmatter principle, obtained is a quantum chromodynamics formula that gives many combinations of unmatter built on quarks and antiquarks. …

    — —
    Were the Shroud and the Manoppello’s Veil
    the first results of a School of Galactic Icons
    coming from other (Extraterrestrial) Institutes of Art?

  6. Piero, I do not see my idea of a resurrected body being of an unknown kind of matter as heretical at all. In fact it is sound, both rationally and theologically.

    What is heretical is to assert that the resurrection was that of a “spiritual body”, which is a contradiction in terms. If it is a spirit, it cannot be a body.

    1. It is possible that a spirit may be perceived by men because of a special divine dispensation. Mystics and the scriptures refer to appearances of angels for instance. In Matthew’s gospel, angels appear to St Joseph, but are said to have appeared to him “in a dream”. But a spirit cannot be touched, nor does it eat food. Normally a spirit cannot interact with the matter of our universe.

    2. In the accounts of the resurrection, Jesus appears to the apostles (perception); Thomas “touches” his wounds; Jesus “walks” and “talks” with apostles on the way to Emmaus, he “sups” with them; when they are gathered in the upper room, he asks if they have something to eat; when they go fishing, he is seen preparing breakfast for them. I assert that a spirit can do none of those things! Therefore he has some kind of resurrected “body” !

    3. Normal matter cannot pass through walls; Nor can normal matter spontaneously “appear” and “disappear”; nor can it normally levitate itself into the clouds as the apostles saw at the Ascension. Therefore the matter that comprised Christ’s resurrected body must be some kind of matter, as yet unknown to us. That can be the only logical conclusion!

    1. daveb of wellington nz says:
      ” Normal matter cannot pass through walls; Nor can normal matter spontaneously “appear” and “disappear”; nor can it normally levitate itself into the clouds as the apostles saw at the Ascension. Therefore the matter that comprised Christ’s resurrected body must be some kind of matter, as yet unknown to us. That can be the only logical conclusion!”

      ***Angel says: Or, known to us, as the transition metal Cooper pairs (superconductors). I mentioned the transition metal Cooper pairs to Colin Berry a while back, referencing levitation, but he refused to believe. Since that time physics has found the transition metal superconductors to perform exactly as I stated to Colin.

      The superconductors levitate, lose weight, etc.
      Levitation and Magnetism associated with superconductors

      As well, the combination of 5 quarks would be referred to as an “octaquark,” rather than an “octoquark.”
      See the following:

      Thermodynamics with density and temperature dependent …
      by XJ Wen – ‎2005 – ‎Cited by 49 – ‎Related articlesJun 6, 2005 – … with an anti-strange quark, such as the pentaquark (u^2d^2\bar{s}) for baryon nmber 1 and the octaquark (u^4d^3\bar{s}) for dibaryon etc.

      With that in mind Jesus may have levitated at the resurrection with the aid of a metal superconductor.

      I love your in-depth and thorough thought processes :)

      My younger sister just died of pancreatic cancer.


    2. Hello Angel, Thank you for your comments about Cooper Pairs which I had not known about, but I had been aware of other properties of superconductors, as early as my undergraduate days now in the long distant past. You didn’t mention whether Cooper Pairs also have the property of passing through walls or spontaneously disappearing and reappearing elsewhere. But I’ll check up on your links.

      My comments on the octaquarks were pure speculation based on no more than 8 being a Fibonacci number. You’re probably aware that the series is: 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21 … Each number is the sum of the previous two, and were discovered by Leonardo Fibonacci in the 13th century. They occur abundantly in nature and have several fascinating properties including a relationship with the golden ratio. I can drivel on about them for hours. Need we search for a tredecim quark?

      Thank you for your kind comments concerning my contributions to the site, and my sincere condolences at the loss of your sister. Blessings, Daveb

      1. Dear Dave,

        Thank you for your condolences regarding my younger sister’s death and you’re welcome. I do love reading your posts!

        Yes, I completely comprehend Fibonnaci numbers, as this topic was included in one of my undergrad chemistry courses.

        After the Higgs-Boson (God particle) was isolated by CERN, I began researching Cooper pairs, Bose-Einstein Condensates (BECs) and the Meisner effect,

        Specifically, referencing Cooper pairs or BECs, I believe metal superconductors, in the solid state, can lose weight and can emit light in the form of waves (like laser beams).. There is a link below that has scientifically confirmed both forms of light (particle and wave).

        Perhaps this antigravimetric process (Cooper pairs/superconductor) was utilized by Jesus at the resurrection, during levitation, which would be in agreement with Isabel Piczek’s Event Horizon theory, I wonder if iron was in the tomb?

        As well, the same would have been responsible for the fast-pulsed laser light that may have produced the image on the Shroud, as theorized by Fanti.

        The garment composing Jesus’ spiritual body would, more than likely, have been composed of bright white light, as seen by Mary Magdalene when she viewed Him as the gardener, on the side of the road near the garden tomb.

        If superconductors are antigravity, then that would explain Jesus entering through the walls when He visited the disciples after His death.

        There are a few scientists working on superconductors, warp drives, induced gravity propulsion and antigravity space craft, etc., that may be utilized for space travel in the not-too-distant future. Some, like Dr. Boylan state, the Lockheed X-22a (two man discoid with onboard laser weaponry) is an antigravity craft, but it is a secret military project, and who knows if it is true. The photo of the Lockheed X-22a on google images is impressive though.

        I’m not a physicist, but perhaps Isabel Piczek could shed some light on the subject of superconductors, with respect to transition metals (those that fill d-orbitals).

        Referencing light or antigravity propulsion using superconductors, see the links.

        First Ever Photograph of light behaving as both a particle and a wave

        Synopsis: A Cooper-Pair Laser

        Cooper pairs


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