Comment by Hugh Farey on Aging
Hugh writes in Might tactile chemography prove to be the super-model?:
Some people think that the “effects of aging” are that an originally bright clear image has faded/flaked to what it is now; and others that an originally completely invisible image became visible by darkening – those who habitually place their experiments in an oven for “aging.” We need to be clear about what “aging” really does.
What happens to non-modern linen bleached by different methods, over time under many different conditions: light, temperature both normal and extreme, moisture, natural radiation, all manner of pollutants in the air or in reliquaries and so forth.
There are the questions: do some or all of these things act differently on “imaged” fibers and non-imaged fibers? How does age act on banding, whatever that is, because it has a visual affect on the image. In fact, is banding a symptom of aging? Why?
Is the Shroud Real? Possibly.
The Shroud of Turin may be the real burial cloth of Jesus. The carbon dating, once seemingly proving it was a medieval fake, is now widely thought of as suspect and meaningless. Even the famous Atheist Richard Dawkins admits it is controversial. Christopher Ramsey, the director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Laboratory, thinks more testing is needed. So do many other scientists and archeologists. This is because there are significant scientific and non-religious reasons to doubt the validity of the tests. Chemical analysis, all nicely peer-reviewed in scientific journals and subsequently confirmed by numerous chemists, shows that samples tested are chemically unlike the whole cloth. It was probably a mixture of older threads and newer threads woven into the cloth as part of a medieval repair. Recent robust statistical studies add weight to this theory. Philip Ball, the former physical science editor for Nature when the carbon dating results were published, recently wrote: “It’s fair to say that, despite the seemingly definitive tests in 1988, the status of the Shroud of Turin is murkier than ever.” If we wish to be scientific we must admit we do not know how old the cloth is. But if the newer thread is about half of what was tested – and some evidence suggests that – it is possible that the cloth is from the time of Christ.
No one has a good idea how front and back images of a crucified man came to be on the cloth. Yes, it is possible to create images that look similar. But no one has created images that match the chemistry, peculiar superficiality and profoundly mysterious three-dimensional information content of the images on the Shroud. Again, this is all published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.
We simply do not have enough reliable information to arrive at a scientifically rigorous conclusion. Years ago, as a skeptic of the Shroud, I came to realize that while I might believe it was a fake, I could not know so from the facts. Now, as someone who believes it is the real burial shroud of Jesus of Nazareth, I similarly realize that a leap of faith over unanswered questions is essential.
My name is Dan Porter. Please email me at DanielRobertPorter@gmail.com
My views is strengthening that the original pigments simply disintegrated over time, leaving discoloured linen behind.
I have recently found some evidence that it was because the images were disintegrating and the Shroud could no longer be clearly seen from afar that accounts for the dramatic falling-off of the number of expositions after 1700, well over fifty in the seventeenth century, only five in the entire eighteenth century with expositions increasingly confined to Savoy family occasions.
My hypothesis can only be proved or disproved by a new surface examination of the Shroud so let’s hope pope Francis authorise one on June 21st!
“We need to be clear about what “aging” really does”
Yes, I agree on that.
So…
Where are the inherent experiments ?
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Here, in my opinion, the situation: without the adequate
scientific comparisons obtained from the experiments,
we are coming (in my opinion) into the dark area where
the truth can be mixed with the false statements…
Sometimes we would almost regret the past research that,
though all its flaws, hadn’t however the shortcoming of senselessness…
Do we have a moral obligation to feel regret for the past works?
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Is Charles Freeman a sort of “paint chemist” par excellence?
Link:
https://www.shroud.com/piczek.htm
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I think that Charles has to study the “Damage Caused by folding”…
and the same thing is valid for ourselves (and then we have
to do the controls using the adequate inspection tools!).
No Piero, I do not have to study anything nor am I an expert in paint chemistry. I have been simply pointing out the immense discrepancies between the depictions and descriptions of the Shroud in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries and the Shroud today and putting forward a possible hypothesis for these discrepancies.
I am in the same situation as John Jackson when, having ruled out a reweaving of the Shroud corner through his photographs of the bindings, he put forward the hypothesis that carbon monoxide might have swayed the carbon-14 result. The Oxford lab tested his hypothesis and found that carbon monoxide had no effect on dating. End of hypothesis.
Similarly, I am waiting for an expert in textile conservation with experience in painted linens to examine the Shroud close-up and see whether my hypothesis has anything going for it. Only the pope can authorise the examination that is needed. I am quite happy to wait in the hope that this will happen. No one else seems to know how the images were made so why not another hypothesis?
Charles,
You wrote:
> …I am waiting for an expert in textile conservation with experience in painted linens to examine the Shroud close-up …
I have found only the following address because I have not had time to look better:
http://www.museumtextiles.com/blog
Sorry, perhaps this expert does not seem adequate to the particular needs of control you have indicated in your message…
Then, I have found another name:
Pippa Cruickshank,
under another address:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/about_us/departments/staff/conservation_and_science/pippa_cruickshank.aspx
>… She also carries out research into the technology, condition, deterioration and appropriate treatment of artefacts, in liaison with scientists, curators and other specialists, and advises on the condition, conservation, storage and display, of a wide range of organic artefacts. …
See also the study:
Recent treatments of painted Egyptian shrouds: The influence of condition and intended role.
published in
The Conservator 01/1999; 23(1):37-48
Abstract:
Several painted Egyptian linen shrouds have recently been treated either for storage or for display in the recent Ancient Faces exhibition and the Roxie Walker Galleries of Egyptian Funerary Archaeology at the British Museum. They vary widely both in date, from c. 1450 bc to 200 bc, and in their condition.This paper brings together a range of treatment options found to be successful for different shrouds, and discusses in what context each method was found to be appropriate. It concentrates on the treatment of five large shrouds, exploring the use of adhesive and stitched lining options, either on their own or in different combinations. Each textile presented its own problems, and the treatment had to be tailored to its individual requirements.
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Here a vague example of “Painted Shroud” :
>Child’s shroud, with deceased depicted holding bird, ankh and pomegranate, painted linen, Egyptian civilization, Roman Empire, 3rd century
under the address:
http://www.gettyimages.it/detail/foto/childs-shroud-with-deceased-depicted-holding-bird-fotografie-stock/185737950
or the:
>Elaborately Painted Shroud of Neferhotep, Son of Herrotiou
Link:
http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/opencollection/objects/3845/Elaborately_Painted_Shroud_of_Neferhotep_Son_of_Herrotiou#
Medium: Linen, painted
Place Found: Deir el-Medina, Egypt
Dates: 100-225 C.E.
Period: Roman Period
Dimensions: 1/16 x 27 x 67 in. (0.2 x 68.6 x 170.2 cm)
Brooklyn Museum photograph, 2007
We know that:
>the tension of folding, which can cause fiber breakage over a long period of time…
So…
before to enter in long discussions around the operations about the new surface examinations, I believe we can try to do some easy textile control using
the adequate set of experiments (on painted linens submitted to
the adequate aging procedures)…
… and, in order to speed up checks on the effects of bending,
then it would be wonderful to have at disposal “a folding machine”.
Unfortunately I have not yet found an adequate textile machinery…
We require a high-speed automatic folding system designed to precisely fold linens (linens and painted linens)…
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How we carry out research into the technology?
I see you didn’t appreciated …or disregarded… my idea about the adequate textile machinery (to use in order to spare time…).
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Are we able to built a machine where folding plates electronically adjust to the desired width while staying parallel to each other? This allows tighter, more consistent folding on all types of linens (obtained from the experiments).
Now please excuse me for this kind
of semi-industrial exaggeration…
Perhaps we can try to do something
in a more artisanal manner…
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Have you an exact idea about the folding process and the inherent control?
Therefore:
Do you have found an useful idea or not?
Charles, you wrote: “No one else seems to know how the images were made so why not another hypothesis?”
On another thread I wrote “(as a SHORT reply since I have no much time for a long winded articulate comment), methinks the crucifixion victim’s ‘smooth wet and dust-covered textile skin’ (or ‘second skin’ aka his aqueous alkali solution in-soaked inner winding burial sheet now known as the Turin Shroud), tightly moulded over his dust-sweat-blood covered body, acted as an image enhancing membrane for accurately aligning (collimating) incompressible vapour flow and orthogonally moved in terms of body-to-cloth gradual shrinking and unsticking front and back by means of the said flow as a thermal actuator.
What is now most needed is a physical model in terms of state-of-the-art experimental archaeology to test the hypothesis (no kitchen lab, no pig experiment).”