Rogers’ Impurity Layer and Di Lazzaro’s Experiments

Yes, maybe. But what if Rogers is wrong about “a thin layer of carbohydrate impurities”?

imageA reader writes in response to the Interview with Interview with Paolo Di Lazzaro:

Scientifically speaking, this is not the main objection we can have concerning the coloring results obtained by Di Lazzaro and his team. No. According to a Shroud specialist like Ray Rogers (who knew one or two things about radiation and its effects on linen fibers), the main objection would be that it is virtually impossible for a mechanism like a burst of UV light (or any other burst of intense radiation like heat, proton, neutron, etc.) to only color a thin layer of carbohydrate impurities that is resting on some linen fibers without, at the same time, coloring the first wall of those fibers and leaving distinct damages there. For Rogers, this kind of coloring result that would affect and color not only the impurity coating but also the fiber itself IS NOT the same kind of result as what he observed on the samples he took in the image area of the Shroud.

Again, we can say that even if something can look like the image on the Shroud, it is [erroneous] to say so if the results obtained do not match with ALL the chemical and physical properties of the image (or in this case, of the color). In the case of Di Lazzaro’s results, if we believe the expert point of view of Rogers, they don’t, even though the coloring results he got are looking quite similar (at first sight) to the color on the Shroud.

I’m afraid science has to look at a much milder process (probably natural and coming from the highly traumatized corpse that was inside the cloth) to explain once and for all the image on the Shroud.

Yes, maybe. But what if Rogers is wrong about “a thin layer of carbohydrate impurities”?

Caption for image at Wikipedia:

Phase contrast microscopic view of image-bearing fiber from the Shroud of Turin. The carbohydrate layer is visible along top edge. The lower-right edge shows that coating is missing. The coating can be scraped off or removed with adhesive or diimide.

19 thoughts on “Rogers’ Impurity Layer and Di Lazzaro’s Experiments”

  1. ‘But what if Rogers is wrong about “a thin layer of carbohydrate impurities”?’

    Apart from a few idolators for whom questioning experts is anathema, serious doubts have been raised about this layer by authenticists and non-authenticists alike.

    Anatomy of a wriggle:

    – Water McCrone detected red ochre and starch. He was wrong about the first but correct about the second.

    – Heller & Adler did not detect any vanillin or any starch. They were right about the first but wrong about the second.

    – Rogers himself detected starch on the Raes fibres. But then concluded that the Raes fibres were not part of the Shroud anyway.

    Perhaps someone could clear up these inconsistencies.

  2. The reader apparently did not read the previous interview, in which one question could have
    made him think twice before raising his doubt:
    Ray Rogers sought answers in the Maillard effect as one ingredient, impurities and so on. It was a positivistic approach, but what if he was wrong?
    Jesus was not the only one crucified during the period, hundreds were nailed to the cross.
    As I pointed out earlier, the (Hasmonean) Jewish king Alexander Janaeus crucified 800 Pharisees in 86 BC, and at least some bodies were laid in tombs.
    Was Jesus’ tomb particularly hot or different in some other way? Were other Jews placed in air-conditioned tombs?

  3. If Rogers is incorrect about an impurity layer, the problem of the affect of radiation on linen means this method of creating the image is impossible based on his chemical examination of the Shroud fibers which did not sustain the damage this expert would expect. Hence it really doesn’t matter if there was an impurity layer or not in terms of radiation. It is impossible for radiation to have caused the image, period.

  4. Note that I said “radiation-like” and not radiation in my question and this was due to the fact that laser was used in the experiment to obtain Shroud-like colouration. My emphasis was to determine the speed involved in the process.

    1. If I am not mistaken, Dr. Paolo Di Lazzaro had performed his calculations about the speed of the alleged phenomenon (and those calculations are rightly based on the speed of light in air and inside the linen fiber), namely: the glorious Resurrection Jesus from the dead!
      But now I do not remember well (ie: exactly) what was the result he had obtained, however (if I’m not mistaken) Dr. Paolo Di Lazzaro argued that the phenomenon Resurrection (seen in its concrete manifestation, in textile fibers) has had a speed that is connected to that of the Light … and up here we can also agree and try to deepen ourselves the problem (which is related to the formation of the surface layer on linen fibrils, the same layer that after aging turns into the “ghost”, a material that can fall … and of which I have spoken in an other message [linked to the strange “gopic hand test” = a vibrational test] that you can easily read).
      Although these speculations are a bit strange in the eyes of the profane (see,
      for example, the harsh criticism of the “sins” made by “Shroudology” that is
      present in the now famous book Nicolotti, published in Italy by Einaudi),
      I think that might be interesting.
      To improve the calculations we should also keep in mind the speed of reaction
      to the light (of the excimer laser) of the material present at the surface
      characteristics of the fibrils. That is, we can not say that the chemical reaction
      is instantaneous because it requires a certain amount of time (little, IMO.
      In any case there is a proportionality with respect the power. And then see
      the exact energy threshold to overcome…).
      The same Dr.Paolo Di Lazzaro has highlighted the question of the latent image
      (ie: the imprint, produced with a certain wavelength, may develop after a certain
      period of exposure to air …), so that the B.I.F. problem seems to be even more complex.
      So you have to identify the points on which to pin power.
      For example: I have found what seems to be a problem related
      to the interaction of light energy with natron and calcite (and iron oxides, dusts).
      Is that phenomenon the possible explanation about the particular “fog result”
      of the Image ? I don’t know, I have some doubt.
      We require calculations and more exact experiments.
      — —
      I confess that I see myself a little uncomfortable with these “dogmatic assumptions”
      (= the Light was the force that depicted the image on linen sheet surface…) and therefore I stress that I would prefer only to see reality as it appears (= under the controls of advanced microscopy), rather than launches into specific (…and interesting) conjectures that (perhaps) can turn into pitfalls…
      Any comment?

      For example: what happened with the light acting on the calcite crystals
      and natron that were present on the cloth? These problems do not appear
      to have been taken into account in the interesting research conducted by DiLazzaro.
      — —
      Maybe you can guess that a really sudden dimensional change
      (a sort of “dimensional transfer”, with a breaken simmetry…)
      can produce certain effects on branes.
      And at the moment this is only the vaguest conjecture.
      But it is always in the field of “materialistic” conjectures,
      a way of seeing in the mechanical-materialistic sense,
      in which quantum mechanics seems to be still far
      from being well-considered …
      — —
      At the end the same eternal refrain: at least we have to submit
      “the coloring results obtained by Di Lazzaro and his team”
      to the SPM controls… in order to obtain a scientific certification.

      1. Errata corrige

        about the short paragraph:

        >Although these speculations are a bit strange in the eyes of the profane (see,
        for example, the harsh criticism of the “sins” made by “Shroudology” that is
        present in the now famous book Nicolotti, published in Italy by Einaudi),
        I think that might be interesting.
        To improve the calculations we should also keep in mind the speed of reaction
        to the light (of the excimer laser) of the material …

        My attempt about a correction:
        >Although these speculations are a bit strange in the eyes of the profanes (and see also [for example] the harsh criticism about the “sins” made by “Shroudology” that now we can read in the famous book Nicolotti, published in Italy by Einaudi), I think that might be interesting to do the inherent complete calculations.
        We should also keep in mind the speed of reaction
        to the light (of the excimer laser) of the materials …
        — — —
        Although there are other issues to improve,
        I think my attemp of correction is acceptable.
        — — —
        In the latest book by Dr. P. L. Baima Bollone :
        “2015 – La nuova indagine sulla Sindone”
        (= a “popular book” published by Priuli & Verlucca, Italy) Dr.
        Paolo Di Lazzaro is not mentioned in the index … and the same with Eng. Fanti, but there are some words about Eng. Fanti, Dr. Rogers and Riggi in this new book (instead Riggi, Rogers, Gonella, Balossino and Dr. F. Zugibe were mentioned in the Index).

        Obviously I am not mentioned in the index, because despite having stressed (in 1998, the centenary of the photos made by the lawyer Pia) the need to use SPM microscopies in order to improve our knowledges (on cellulosic DP, on “biological watch”, on ancient DNA, etc.), I’m just a stranger to most and without an University degree…

  5. Do you know what is Gopichand/ektara, an indian instrument?

    >The ektara is constructed from two strips of bamboo, from the same piece of bamboo which has a cap on the top of the instrument.
    >A single string travels in between is connected from the top to the membrane. the membrane of the ektara would have a flexible bottom cut from animal hide, lizard skin or often more commonly elastic synthetic materials.
    >A single wooden wooden tuning peg is hand carved and inserted into the top.


    Gopichand is a one-string instrument most often used in traditional music
    from Bangladesh, India, Egypt, and Pakistan.
    In origin the gopichand was a regular string instrument of
    wandering bards and minstrels from India and is plucked with one finger…
    — —
    See also another possible “vibrational instrument”:
    the Jew’s harp or mouth harp (= scacciapensieri, in Italian language)…
    — — —
    Yesterday I wrote:
    >We have to know if linen fibrils treated by Paolo Di Lazzaro
    (compared to the other coming from the Holy Shroud)
    pass or fail the “gopic hand test”…

    I want to repeat here that we still have to check what
    will be the answer to this test.
    The name of the test (= “Gopichand test”) is just
    a curious idea (a figment of my own invention).
    Do not go to look for information on the test,
    do not exist on the Internet …

    Have you a figment of your imagination
    (on this “vibrational argument”) to be made available to all?
    — — —
    In any case, regardless of your thoughts on the matter,
    the vibrations are not a figment of human imagination.
    … And then : we can study what kind of vibrations are coming out from
    the different type of linen fibrils (firstly: we have to start from
    the controls on experiments done, … before to touch the precious
    linen fibrils coming from the Holy Shroud!) under examination.
    So, in my opinion, we can virtually obtain the truth (about the
    possible age) from the ancient textile material (submitted to
    the particular “gopic hand test”).

  6. I think it would be appropriate to investigate the issue
    about the exact process of the formation of the “ghosts” …
    If the image was formed as some researchers have imagined
    (see for example: the model indicated by John Jackson, the one
    outlined by Fanti, or one based on VUV emissions as indicated by Di Lazzaro, etc.)
    then the fibrils involved in the change should have certain characteristics.
    So the task of the research is to carry out the appropriate analyses.

    I believe we can use the “gopic hand test” pass/fail in order to improve the knowledges…

  7. But the major problem is to not spoil the material, and instead
    the “gopic hand test” could get to needlessly ruin the material
    of the Shroud (and forever = for example with the detachment
    of “ghosts”, as concrete result from the vibrations!), maybe
    without getting useful informations …

    So the “gopic hand test” seems to be more useful on linen samples
    coming from the experiments (ie : from the treatments with CD,
    or VUV, etc.) … in order to improve the preliminar comparisons…

    What is you idea on the matter?

  8. So many contradictions, so many uncertainties, so many unknowns, inaccessibility of the object of enquiry, so many personal agendas, authenticists and non-authenticists can never agree. Cause of the image, nature of the image, its peculiar orthogonality, nature of the blood-stains, image under the bloodstains?? Pollens? Was there a reweave? And so on, and so on, and so on. Radiation? Maillard? Unrepresentative sampling? Miracle? Forgery? Naturalistic? We thought STURP had provided answers in 1978. The C14 labs thought they had the answer in 1988. Now we seem certain of nothing about it at all. And that’s all without even touching on the historical aspects.

    Would a more structured approach get any further? A research foundation under the auspices of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences? It would need a huge endowment to make any progress. That might mean big corporates becoming involved. Meantime we have all these little disparate cells pursuing their own private theories. Getting nowhere! Books on it churned out by the dozen. Little agreement. What’s the answer?

    1. Daveb: What’s the answer?

      Our brains are so complex and goes in many directions. How can we minimise or maximise the Objective Function. But it is so complex that as there are so many variables and so many constraints. So we will never get an answer from the data availble.

      Based on my wisdom I think Image on the Shroud of Turin is not a man made one. If it a man made one then today with our knowledge in science and technology we would have produced more than Billions of Shroud of Turins.

      So only solution is, hope, one day Church authorities will allow scientists to do more testing to do to determine the age of the Shroud of Turin.

      1. daveb and Sampath,

        I concur with your assessment. The mystery deepens. Let the Shroud speak .

        I would enjoy a discussion by this group on the nature and physics of the Transfiguration. My speculation is that whatever energy emanated then may have been similar at the resurrection. A different sub-atomic particle being released? Neutrinos? A good read – The Physics of Christianity by Frank Tipler. Intriguing. The forensics still offer the greatest clues. I have yet to see ANY artistic rendition of a brutalized corpse with the details on the Shroud.

  9. Rogers indicated that the mailiard reaction alone was not an answer to the issue of image formation. I wonder if the answer maybe quite simple. It was light.

    Originally the linen shroud was white. Agreed? Over the ages it darkened and the fading of the “image” is in part at least to a lost of contrast as the linen darkened. Am I wrong that one thing that can darken linen is light, just ordinary see it every day sunlight.

    Once as a child I toyed with developing photographs. They has to be “fixed” lest they faded. The impact of light on any object would depend on its chemical composition. Other times light might bleach a material.

    Sometimes it would darken, sometimes it could bleach. When the drawing called “La Bella Principessa” was subjected to Multispectral Digital Imaging (MDI) they had to use special lighting designed to prevent damaging the drawing.

    St. Paul’s claimed the appearance of Christ to him was in a bright blinding light.

    When it comes to the Shroud I am reminded of the Gospel of John:

    “And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not.”

  10. Visible light, which is presumably what St Paul and the witnesses to the transfiguration saw, is part of the electromagnetic radiation spectrum which includes heat (infra-red) and Paulo di Lazzaro’s UV laser. Depending on its wavelength, intensity and duration, deterioration of linen is certainly possible, and in some circumstances, as di Lazzaro has shown, results very similar to the discolouration of the Shroud can be achieved.

    The first question is then, where did the ‘light’ come from? The problem here is that except in very peculiar circumstances which I shall describe below, it could not have come from the object making the image (such as the body of Christ). If you expose a piece of photographic paper to a lamp in a dark room, you do not get a photo of the lamp, just a white blur, as rays from all over the lamp spread out and affect all over the paper. Even if you place a luminous mask on a piece of photographic paper in the dark, you do not get a photo of the mask, although a vague outline of its shape might be possible. This is because the light from all over the mask radiates in all directions.

    The peculiar circumstances mentioned above would be that if the rays of light from every point on the object all emerged and travelled in exactly the same direction, and if the intensity of the ray from each point diminished according to its distance from the cloth, then indeed, you might get a photo of a lamp or a luminous mask just be exposing it to a photosensitive sheet. There is no known way to achieve this, although Giulio Fanti’s coronal discharge experiments have been exploring the idea.

    The second question is, can a live, dead, supernatural or earthquake stimulated body produce the appropriate radiation (such as heat, light or UV) with appropriate qualities. So far, there is no known way.

  11. Hugh,

    Isabel Piczek described the image as an “event horizon.” I have written that event horizon is an appropriate metaphor for death. Perhaps its more than a metaphor. According to St. Paul, Christ appeared to him in a bright light that blinded him. Then there is Christ’s warning to Mary Magdalene when he appeared to her outside the tomb Sunday morning. “Do not touch me.”

    I would be a fool to claim I have solved the mystery of the Resurrection but not a fool to point out the known circumstances of the image are consistent with the Resurrection – The body transforming or transporting into a different dimension or level of existence. The image which appears to have been created in a micro-second (Rogers) would be the last instant before that transformation or transportation was complete. A literal event horizon becasue we can not today view or even comprehend where the the body went or how it was transformed.

    There are some who insist that science can never get to that point. I would suggest that the history of science particularly in the last two centuries has pushed the boundaries of science far beyond what was imagined previously. Evolution is one such but we know that the Darwin’s survival of the fittest is only a partial answer to the process of evolution.

    Someone was labeled my thoughts as Chardinian as in Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (I believe it was a compliment). I plead guilty for Teilhard envisioned a coalescence of science and faith both dependent on the other, both illuminating the other. What is the history science but an exploration and revelation of the wonder and magnificence of our existence; a journey that has not been concluded and may never end.

    I expect to be blogging on this in the near future for there is one thing I have concluded: that Shroud is authentic and what that means. Some may disagree.

    1. John Klotz

      This is not on the topic, but reading what you write I think you may be interested in a new book coming out, “A Beautiful Question: Finding Nature’s Deep Design” by Frank Wilczek. Here is part of what Amazon writes about it;

      “Artists as well as scientists throughout human history have pondered this “beautiful question.” With Nobel laureate Frank Wilczek as your guide, embark on a voyage of related discoveries, from Plato and Pythagoras up to the present. Wilczek’s groundbreaking work in quantum physics was inspired by his intuition to look for a deeper order of beauty in nature.”

    2. I was intrigued by the latest medical news, representing a solution of a problem that lasted for decades =
      Kawchuk GN, Fryer J, Jaremko JL, Zeng H, Rowe L, et al. (2015)
      Real-Time Visualization of Joint Cavitation.
      PLoS ONE 10(4): e0119470.

      I believe that the same could happen to the question of determining
      the true age of the Shroud.

      Here the excerpts from the abstract:
      >Cracking sounds emitted from human synovial joints have been attributed historically to the sudden collapse of a cavitation bubble formed as articular surfaces are separated. Unfortunately, bubble collapse as the source of joint cracking is inconsistent with many physical phenomena that define the joint cracking phenomenon. Here we present direct evidence from real-time magnetic resonance imaging that the mechanism of joint cracking is related to cavity formation rather than bubble collapse… etc. …
      >… Our results offer direct experimental evidence that joint cracking is associated with cavity inception rather than collapse of a pre-existing bubble. These observations are consistent with tribonucleation, a known process …

      — — —
      I wonder what is the meaning about the fact that we want to speak
      about physical issues that we still do not know very well
      ( ) mixed with certain
      ideas on Resurrection.
      I think that our Physics has some way to go before to speak
      about certain ideas of dimensional change with simultaneous transport
      in other dimensions…

      I hope that the required improvement of useful physical knowledges
      will be obtained with the same speed of that which come from the progress
      deriving from the use of an instrument:
      Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer (AMS).
      In other words, see the study:
      “Comment on AMS02 results support the secondary origin of cosmic ray positrons”

      Roberto A. Lineros
      April 14, 2015


      under the address:

      >Recently Blum, Katz and Waxman have claimed that the flux of high energy cosmic ray (CR) positrons near Earth that has been measured with the Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer (AMS) aboard the International Space Station can be produced in the collisions of Galactic CR protons and nuclei with the ambient matter in the Galactic interstellar medium (ISM).Their claim was based on an alleged “robust upper limit to the positron flux” which neglected the energy loss of e+’s in the ISM. Inclusion of this energy loss, however, yields a much smaller upper limit, which excludes secondary production in the ISM by the Galactic cosmic rays as the main origin of the CR e^+ flux above 10 GeV.
      — — —
      The Alpha Magnetic Spectrometer (AMS-02) is a state-of-the-art particle physics detector designed to operate as an external module on the International Space Station. It will use the unique environment of space to study the universe and its origin by searching for antimatter, dark matter while performing precision measurements of cosmic rays composition and flux. The AMS-02 observations will help answer fundamental questions, such as “What makes up the universe’s invisible mass?” or “What happened to the primordial antimatter?”
      — —
      Then AMS and AFM are the two different ways to know this World…
      B.T.W., here what I have found in a new health field:
      >Nanodentistry is an emerging field with significant potential to yield new generation of technologically advanced clinical tools and devices for oral healthcare. Nanoscale topology and quantitative biomechanical or biophysical analysis of dental surfaces are of significant interest. In particular, using Atomic force microscopy techniques—diseases such as dental caries, tooth hypersensitivity, and oral cancer can be quantified based on morphological, biophysical and biochemical nanoscale properties of tooth surface itself and dental materials or oral fluids such as saliva. An outlook on future “nanodentistry” developments such as saliva exosomes based diagnostics, designing biocompatible, antimicrobial dental implants and personalized dental healthcare is presented…

      Don’t you want to think to improve the health?
      See also Dr. Childérick Severac of ITAV, Toulouse, with his AFM system…
      under the address:

      >…In the collaborative research efforts, AFM is being used to probe the mechanical properties of various cells, e.g. cancer cells, to study their invasiveness. …
      — — —
      Now I want to leave alone for a moment the technique
      and then I jump on the question of studies on Early Christianity:

      In my opinion there are many points of the events of 2000 years ago that are a little unclear.
      For example: Our Lord Jesus Christ had a foster father: St. Joseph. However: where is the tomb of St. Joseph? Recently I read a short service on the ancient cult of St. Joseph in Palestine. Along with the article was a picture of the so-called Tomb of the Right or of St. Joseph (which exists at the convent of the Sisters of Nazareth), the text was also quoted an ancient document called Judeo-Christian “Historia Josepi”.
      According to this ancient report the death and glorification of St. Joseph took place right in the place where according to tradition Jesus revealed his “secret doctrine”, ie on Mount Olivet …
      The Dominican Milan IsidoroIsolano inserted the History of St. Joseph in his “Summa de donis St. Joseph”, printed in Pavia, in 1522. And in that work the story of Joseph’s life is attributed to Jesus himself, who would confided to the disciples on the Mount of Olives.
      IsidoroIsolano, who wrote the Summa of the gifts of St. Joseph, said that there will come a time when you will discover riches enclosed in St. Joseph.

      The Gospel of St. Matthew informs us that the death of Christ, “the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints who had died, resurrected. Coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many “… So: St. Joseph was among them?

      Another question: the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Holy Mother of Jesus, is seen by some as the dying and then resurrected and went to heaven. Others (here I refer to one of the many responses given by Our Lady in Medjugorje) seem to deny that Mary is dead!
      Then: the Blessed Virgin Mary was dead or simply “asleep”?
      Some theologians, although the precise address expressed years ago by Pope Wojtyla, seems still debating the issue …
      — — —
      After these notes, however, I would not be passed to a heretic …

      St. Joseph by the unanimous opinion of the theologians and the teaching of Blessed Pius IX (Decree Quemadmodum Deus, December 8, 1870), Leo XIII (enciclicaQuamquam pluries, August 15, 1889) and Pius XI (speech of 21 April 1926) exceeds dignity in any other saint of the Old and New Testament Baptist (though John the Baptist died a martyr, shedding his blood, and therefore there is no comparison) and Apostles included. Make faith the true marriage of St. Joseph with the Blessed Virgin Mary, the high paternity exercised against Jesus Christ, the extraordinary mission leader and guardian of the Holy Family, unsurpassed participation and knowledge of the divine plan of salvation

      I don’t put myself against the Truth of the Faith, but I see that some mysteries still seem to remain unresolved. Should we add mystery to the Mysteries? I do not think this is the right way to go toward the Truth.

      — — —

      Summa de donis sancti Joseph. – “Titre” : En, lector ingenue, novum opus… Summa, in quatuor secta partes, de donis sancti Joseph, sponsi beatissimae Virginis Mariae ac patris putativi Christi Jesu… [aedita a fratre Isidoro de Isolanis.] – “Au fol. 101” : Papiaeque impressa, apud Jacob Paucidrapium, M.D.XXII., tertio cal. septembr___

      — —
      Now I think there is enough meat on the grill for all …
      and maybe there’s too much meat charred and
      so you have to look about your health (despite
      the hopes arising by the use of AFM measurements
      on cancer cells)!

  12. In any case (if we want to promote the idea to search money to do new analyses)
    I think we can try to invent
    (at least) a curious promotional item:
    the “Shroud-Watch”, where lancets that run over the Image
    are similar to two AFM tips …
    But this thing is not so much curious and it seems a little bit vulgar.

    1. Sorry…
      The right word to write was “cantilevers” and not “tips”!
      — —
      If we have some time at disposal we can also try to think to the possibility to build a MEMS device, a sort of “MEMS watch”, where a micro-nanomanipulator is used to deform a linen fibrils (a sort of “cantilever”) for flexural controls in AFM tests… in order to know what is the probable epoch of the ancient textile material.

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