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Interview with Paolo Di Lazzaro

April 14, 2015

In the website of our laboratory is the web page where you can find all the results,
works, publications, interviews and films related to the Shroud studies conducted at ENEA.

From a Google translation of an interview conducted by Maria Margherita Peracchino in L’Indro, Shroud: the image impossible according to the ENEA: Interview with Paolo Di Lazzaro, head of the Laboratory of the Center Excimer ENEA Frascati:

Among the most recent studies, there is one made by the Laboratory of the Center Excimer ENEA Frascati. "Our laboratory has tried a new approach," says Paolo Di Lazzaro, head of the Laboratory of ENEA Frascati, "trying to play a Shroud-like coloration of linen fabrics through photochemical effects induced by ultraviolet light, which in principle has the characteristics needed to get at least two of the characteristics of the Shroud image, which is the low temperature of formation and coloring extremely superficial, limited to a thin film sub micrometer. "

Lazarus, we explain the work you have carried out on the Shroud and the fundamental results to which you have come?

Since 2005 the Laboratory of Excimer ENEA Frascati Centre carried out a large number of irradiation of ultraviolet laser light on linen fabrics woven in the years between 1930 and 1950 never used and never washed with detergent, in order to avoid the presence of bleaching chemicals that can alter the optical properties of the tissue. By radiation means sending laser pulses on the fabric, which alter the chemical bonds of the same tissue, which in turn changes its surface properties and appearance. The main purpose of irradiations was to verify whether an intense ultraviolet radiation was able to create a linen coloration with characteristics similar to those of the body image on the Shroud of Turin. After numerous irradiation and with great difficulty we managed to find the right combination of laser parameters (pulse duration, intensity, energy density and number of shots) that allows a color-like shroud. We got a shade of color, a superficial staining, an effect of alternating colored fibers and not colored, the negativity of the image that are similar to those measured on the Shroud of Turin by STURP. Based on our thirty years of experience of irradiation and interaction of light with many materials, was the first time that we have found a range of values ​​so critical to get the desired effect: during the irradiation of the fabric is in fact sufficient to vary by a few percentage points one only the laser parameters mentioned above to stop getting any coloration of linen. Really amazing.

In addition to the experiments of laser irradiation and coloration of linen, more recently you have faced the problem of different written and invisible images that some scholars fail to highlight after a digital processing of the contrast and brightness of the photographs of the Shroud.

Yes. And our results suggest that in some cases (the alleged written, the alleged face on the back) is probably illusory perceptual effects related to the phenomena of psychological Gestalt and pareidolia well known to scholars of human perception and optical illusions. Our results have been presented in detail in several articles published in international scientific journals of great prestige and impact, and therefore are available to all interested scientists to reproduce our results and maybe get better. In the website of our laboratory is the web page where you can find all the results , works, publications, interviews and films related to the Shroud studies conducted at ENEA.

  1. Julian
    April 14, 2015 at 6:06 am

    If I understand the main objection to the work of Lazarro et al, it is that positing that the image on the Shroud was caused by some sort of ultraviolet laser radiation would be the same as suggesting that something miraculous had taken place. Is that correct?

    • Hugh Farey
      April 14, 2015 at 6:17 am

      Briefly, yes.

      More usefully, there are no circumstances currently known whereby a body in a tomb can generate the kind, quantity or direction of radiation required for di Lazzaro’s mechanism to operate to produce the image on the Shroud. Either further discoveries in physics or archaeology will eventually justify the mechanism, or something occurred outside the realm of physics altogether, or the image was not produced using the mechanism described.

      • Sampath Fernando
        April 14, 2015 at 4:53 pm

        If Gospels are true;
        Luke 23:46 (New International Version) Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

        Mark 15:38 (New International Version) The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

        From the above we can see that when Jesus handed over his spirit to the Father, how much energy dispatched from his body. That energy was so powerful that even the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

        As I mentioned previously no one knows about the resurrection process and no one knows how much energy is required to enter the spirit of Jesus back to his dead body.

        Can anyone explain about this energy? What type? and What quantity?

        • Sampath Fernando
          April 14, 2015 at 6:30 pm

          At resurrection:

          Matthew 28:2 (New International Version) There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.

          At resurrection where this energy came from to have violent earthquake?

  2. April 14, 2015 at 7:26 am

    I really have no sympathy for those who wish to slam the door on on scientific progress by claiming that the Resurrection is an unnatural event and therefore forever beyond the scope of scientific investigation. If the body of Christ underwent a trans-formative process, that trans-formative process began with a physical object: His body wrapped in the Shroud. Although I don’t intend to do much with the concept right now, Hugh’s initial skepticism that I could construct (with tutelage) a tesseract at age 17 drew my attention to the tesseract: a three dimension representation of a four dimensional cube, the fourth dimension being time.

    You have in the tomb Christ’s body one instant and in another instant it’s gone. That instant is to people of faith, the Resurrection. What makes anyone think that the process of transformation would leave no traces? It may have been an infinitesimally small instant. (So was the Big Bang) but it was instant. His body transported from one existence to another.

    Some years ago Isabel Piczek described the Shroud as an “event horizon.” At first I was querulous l. Now I am not. When Christ’s body entered a new dimension or universe of cosmic existence, the Shroud recorded the last visible instant as that happened. I would reference his conversation with Mary Magdalene outside the tomb: “Do not touch me!”

    In that regard, di Lazzaro’s research is intriguing. Is it a final answer? Not yet, but it may be pointing in a direction.

    \

    • Louis
      April 14, 2015 at 7:12 pm

      One is here led to the dilemma Heidegger bumped into, influenced as he was by Bultmann. Bultmann has been largely discarded today, but not Heidegger. Although an ex-seminarian he fought with the Jesuits and drifted away from religion. Faced with the ultimate meaning of the dilemma, unable to solve it while thinking deeply during long walks in a forest, he returned to religion, began to enter and bless himself each time he passed a church and, finally, called a priest to his house to make sure he would be given a Catholic burial.
      If Heidegger had read the NT from a different angle, he would not face the dilemma, but then he would have have to mix religion and philosophy, which he did not exactly do. He would have to take another path, but nothing to do with a new dimension of cosmic existence….

  3. Hugh Farey
    April 14, 2015 at 9:03 am

    “The tesseract: a three dimension representation of a four dimensional cube, the fourth dimension being time.” Er… no… A tesseract is a figure of four spacial dimensions, in which each of the edges is of unit length and either parallel to or at right angles to each of the other edges. Assuming one could make one, it would also exist in time, making it, from that point of view, a five-dimensional object.

    Conceptually speaking, especially if exploring n-dimensional space-time, it can be obstructive to think of time as the 4th dimension. It is more useful to think of time as the 1st dimension. This goes against conventional thinking, as it implies that a square is a three dimensional figure, but a moment’s thought will show that this is true, in that if a square exists at all, it exists in time, and therefore consists of two spacial dimensions and time. There is a further extension to this, which is that there may be numerous time dimensions, and that a complete description of an object may require one to specify both how many spacial and how many temporal dimensions it occupies. It may be that some of the peculiarities of quantum theory become easier to understand in these terms.

  4. April 14, 2015 at 9:20 am

    “This goes against conventional thinking” It sure does.

  5. piero
    April 14, 2015 at 10:19 am

    Perhaps we have also to see what happens using the other way:
    a Corona Discharge on a manikin built with a new unconventional method
    for combining metal and textile (polyurethane is used as skin to blend with a metallic grid)…
    In my idea a thin grid can be constructed in order to combine them…
    This was only a vague suggestion to improve what is able to do Eng. G. Fanti.
    If we want to try to use VUV excimer laser on that particular 3D structure,
    then we can think to lower the power…
    But I have some doubt about the exactness of the work (for example:
    when the grid is too large).
    — —
    Sorry.
    I am joking a bit on serious issues (= the textile tesseract:
    a three dimensional representation, VUV and Laboratory of Excimer,
    CD power calibrations, VUV calibrations, etc. …)

    • piero
      April 14, 2015 at 11:45 am

      I would add, however, an attempt of mine to clarify:
      I’m afraid that might happen the phenomena of “thermal pollution” during production (= adequate experiments done with the use of that polyurethane/metallic blend ) of the image on the Shroud, namely: a bit like what Rogers told me to have happened with the experiments performed (but here I speak about things of the past) from known researcher Giovanna De Liso …
      So, I cannot exclude a sameness to what had happened with linen fibrils produced by De Liso.

      We were dazzled with the proofs obtained by Di Lazzaro (and Fanti), but we never saw the results from the controls (on linen fibrils) obtained using advanced microscopies (= AFM techniques, etc.).

      I said all these things also because I want to underline
      the importance of microscopic controls…
      For example: the evaluation by Rogers (about an interesting sample otained
      by De Liso) was based on his observation, performed using a microscope.
      — —
      Before ending, here’s a question:
      What should be the optimal size of the “metallic grid”
      (a grid that has to be well inserted into the polyurethanic skin)
      in your opinion?

  6. daveb of wellington nz
    April 14, 2015 at 4:29 pm

    Perhaps it is not such a difficult problem? It is well known that individual atoms have signature EM frequencies as subatomic particles change their energy levels. A simple example is the Fraunhofer lines of stars whereby their chemical composition can be analysed. What Physics student hasn’t seen the orange luminescence of common salt NaCl? Very likely in some cases these signature frequencies extend into the UV range. All it needs is the for the right atoms to be activated. A resurrection process might do it. Analysis, anyone? Apostles Creed, “He descended into hell… ” Would that be hot enough to do it?

    • Piero
      April 15, 2015 at 9:27 am

      daveb wrote:
      “… Analysis, anyone? Apostles Creed, “He descended into hell… ” Would that be hot enough to do it?”
      So one might think … that could be the glow of the light of the flames of hell the one that produced … the image of the Shroud?
      — —
      Now, to return to the problems of this poor world:
      How much is the amount of money required for the preparation of a good Laboratory of Archaeometry (like the one that seemed to think Prof. Barberis in an interview)?
      — —
      What do you think of the dummy/manikin constructed with the combination
      of a metal mesh and the polyurethanic skin?

      What is your opinion about the idea of subjecting the dummy constructed with the combination of a metal mesh and polyurethanic skin (or a polyurethanic sheet over
      an insulating sculpture) to a Corona Discharge?
      — —
      Is it possible to think other ways (about the B.I.F. = Body Image Formation)?
      For example, I have found the following description:

      >Electrostatic painting is commonly called powder coating. It is a dry powder mix of resin and pigment. The mix is positively charged in the paint sprayer and sprayed onto the finished surface by air. The painted object is grounded to give it a negative charge. The powder is only attracted to the finished object, so it spreads uniformly over the most irregular and complicated surfaces. …

      Link:http://www.ehow.com/facts_6684816_kind-paint-used-electrostatic-painting_.html

      and
      this one:
      >The term electrostatics or electrostatic spray finishing refers to a spray finishing process in which electrical charges and electric fields are used to attract particles of atomized coating material to the target (the object to be coated). In the most common types of electrostatic systems, electrical charges are applied to the coating material and the target is grounded, creating an electric field. The charged particles of coating material are drawn by the electric field to the surface of the grounded target because of the attraction of opposing electrical charges. …

      Here another excerpt:
      >In a corona charging system, a high voltage generator is used to charge an electrode at the tip of the powder gun. This creates an electrostatic field (or corona) between the gun and the substrate.
      >Gas molecules in the air pick up electrons emitted from the corona. This negative charge is, in turn, transferred to the powder particles as they are propelled from the gun head towards the substrate.
      >The charged powder particles are deposited on the earthed substrate.
      >Electrostatic spraying gun system has been the most popular coating methods
      for powder coating powder.

      Link:
      http://www.chinapowdercoating.com/tag/electrostatic-spraying/page/2

      So…
      Is it possible to think the Shroud as a sort of electrostatic painting?
      — —
      I think this idea (= the Shroud as a sort of “electrostatic painting”) has
      the defect of being different from what we can observe about the Shroud:
      looking the Shroud we see only a weak superficial action and
      so there is no true penetration into the material (apart from the claims
      by Fanti and Maggiolo about the existence of the “second face”,
      a phenomenon that was [interpreted in a different manner by Rogers,
      who, instead of the Corona Discharge, indicated the absorption-desorption
      effect about the behavior of linen fibres] denied by Balossino …).

      In any case we have to test under the advanced microscope
      the linen fibrils coming from the Image of the Shroud, before
      to speak too about the hypothesis of an “event horizon” or “horizon of the Hell”
      or whatsoever thing you want to think…

      But we should also take into account the effect of the passage of time,
      the aging of the “mysterious picture” …
      this without necessarily having to arrive to the exaggerations of Charles
      Freeman (I hope that our poor friend Charles will forgive me for
      this term a bit severe…) about the past appearance of the Shroud…

      So, what now I want to emphasize is that we have not yet observed
      the aging of what was produced by Di Lazzaro (apart from a special case
      already considered by himself…).

  7. piero
    April 15, 2015 at 11:46 am

    I want to try to improve my little contribution to this blog
    with few lines about the “gopic hand test”…

    In other words:
    We have to know if linen fibrils treated by Paolo Di Lazzaro
    (compared to the other coming from the Holy Shroud)
    pass or fail the “gopic hand test”…

    Do you know Soprano Gopichand from India?
    Try to see under:
    http://coolmusicinstrument.com/ektara-and-gopichand-one-string-percussive-instrument-india

    and
    there is another posibility of information under:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ektara
    >… he ektara is a drone lute consisting of a gourd resonator
    covered with skin, through which a bamboo neck is inserted …

    B.T.W.:
    >Paramhansa Yogananda was an early proponent of kirtan in the west,
    chanting Guru Nanak Dev’s Hey Hari Sundara (“Oh God Beautiful”)
    with 3,000 people at Carnegie Hall in 1923…

    Link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtan

    — — —
    I hope that you have understood
    what can be the “gopic hand test”…

    But (perhaps) …
    Do you prefer the banjo ?…

    Link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjo
    — —
    I don’t believe we can work with “Four-string banjos” [or similar things]
    (using linen fibrils as cords), also perhaps “in tremolo style”…
    because we have to test the vibration of a single linen fibril.
    — —
    In my opinion VUV treated (= probably brittle) linen fibrils react
    in a different manner with respect the other material, but I never
    tried to test these interesting “nanomusical things” (and excuse
    me for this term written in an easy humorous style) in a great
    “Lab orchestra” (… directed by prof. B. Barberis?)…

  1. April 16, 2015 at 5:39 am
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