Home > History, St Louis 2014 > A number of marks falling all over the surface of the body

A number of marks falling all over the surface of the body

January 18, 2015

Fascinating, informative paper. Great illustrations. I learned a lot.

clip_image001With recent references in this blog to the illustrations in the Holkham Bible it seems appropriate to now consider the paper, The Hypotheses About the Roman Flagrum: Some Clarifications, presented by Flavia Manservigi (pictured) and coauthored by Enrico Morini (available at shroud.com and at academia.edu as of two days ago):

On the imprint of the long Sheet are also clearly visible a number of marks, falling all over the surface of the body, from the shoulders to the lower extremities of the legs: scholars interpreted those signs like the result of a terrible scourging, which was inflicted on the Man of the Shroud before crucifixion. The marks of flogging and crucifixion, like the great part of the wound marks visible on the cloth, strengthened the hypothesis of the identification of the Man of the Shroud with Jesus of Nazareth: the tortures suffered by the Man of the Shroud can be totally assimilated to the ones that, according to the Gospels, were inflicted on Jesus.

imageFascinating, informative paper. Great illustrations. I learned a lot.

BTW:  I probably should have mentioned this paper sooner. Already archived at shroud.com, it was just uploaded to academia.edu two days ago, which sent its page ranking soaring in Google. That grabbed my attention. This supports my theory that it makes sense to archive papers at both shroud.com and academia.edu and elsewhere (no, don’t ask). 

There are still other papers to explore from the St. Louis conference. Please by patient.

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  1. Hugh Farey
    January 18, 2015 at 4:54 am

    The object illustrated above is clearly for hanging something from such as a lamp or similar and is just as clearly not a flagrum. I have discussed this with Flavia Manservigi, who has been very helpful, but who (surprise!) disagrees…

    • Dan
      January 18, 2015 at 5:45 am

      If I had to guess, I’d guess you are right.

    • Andrea Nicolotti
      January 18, 2015 at 6:11 am

      What Flavia shows are not flagra nor Romans: they are decorations of Italic provenance, or objects for hanging something, or weights for scales, as it was showed by archaeologists almost 100 years ago, and as I have showed in a conference in Turin on 2 march 2013.
      It is strange that in Vatican museums did not explain to Flavia that what they store (closed in a wardrobe) are not flagra, and also probably they are modern “pastiches”: when I was there on 2012, they knew it.

      • January 18, 2015 at 6:19 am

        One’s heard of making a rod to beat one’s own back. Here’s an even more, er, flagrant example.

        PS: Hugh beat you to it with the true nature of the object shown, Andrea, but it’s good to have independent confirmation.

        • Andrea Nicolotti
          January 18, 2015 at 6:25 am

          What does it mans “independent confirmation”?

  2. Hugh Farey
    January 18, 2015 at 6:34 am

    You and me, Andrea! We’re not a confederacy, we’re independent of each other, so if two of us think the same thing it must be true!

  3. Hugh Farey
    January 18, 2015 at 6:52 am

    Have you got a copy of your conference paper of 2 March 2013?

    • Andrea Nicolotti
      January 18, 2015 at 7:48 am

      No, because the acts were not published. I have photos of that day and an audio recording… in Italian. I will publish it, soon or later

      • Charles Freeman
        January 18, 2015 at 10:30 am

        Remember that Professor James Marrow, an authority on Passion Iconography,suggests that all-over scourge marks come from the adoption, c.1300, of Isaiah 1.6 as a premonition of Christ’s Passion. ‘

        ‘From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness – only wounds and bruises and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.’

        This is surely what the Holkham Bible shows and it is a question whether it applies to the Shroud as well as it well might if the images were created after 1300. None of the articles I have read on Roman scourging refers to this scourging being of both front and back.

  4. January 18, 2015 at 8:14 am

    Stand by for another clash of Titans over priority, Here’s a link that should help to establish criteria and ground rules:


  5. Flavia
    March 4, 2015 at 4:23 am

    Dear Professor Nicolotti, I would be very interested in having some clear references showing that the objects that I saw at the Vatican Museums are not flagra; in fact, they are classified as ‘bronze flagra’ (see the article of Dr. Claudia Lega, which I quoted in my paper), and none of the archaeologist that I met at the Museum proposed the hypothesis that the objects that we were observig (that are preserved in the store) are not flagra. If you give me some reference, I could certainly try to clarify the matter. If you like, you can write me an e-mail at flavia.manservigi@gmail.com. Thank you very much, hope to hear of you soon!

  6. Flavia
    April 9, 2015 at 2:14 pm

    Dear Professor Nicolotti, I’m afraid I did not receive any answer to my question about the references concerning the ‘bronze flagra’ of the Vatican Museums; I would be very interested in having some clearer and more precise indications about this matter, in order to be able to clarify if there were any misunderstandings. I hope I will have an answer soon.
    Thank you very much

  7. Sampath Fernando
    April 9, 2015 at 4:45 pm

    Dear Flavia: Some educated think they are the authority for many things and make all sort of nonsense comments without knowing the real truth. That is why you did not get an answer from that Professor. Furthermore many educated people are trying to visualise ancient itemss using today’s technology and they don’t know how people survived about 2000 years ago. Even they don’t know how people think about 2000 years ago.

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