A Guest Posting by O.K.
Pray Codex –a probabilistic approach.
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The discussion about the Pray Codex and it’s relation to the Shroud seems to be over.
The question of whether or not the Pray Codex had been inspired by the Shroud of Turin has been hotly debated.
Here I would like to present a probabilistic approach to that matter. I would like to estimate probability of several key elements linking the Codex with the Shroud, to occur ALL AT ONCE by pure chance, instead of being copied from the Shroud.
I take into account only a few INDEPENDENT, NON-TRIVIAL and UNDISPUTED details sharing some alleged similarity with the Shroud.
It should be noted that on the key page of the Codex, there are in fact TWO illustrations not just one. Further we will be calling upper illustration as Illustration I, an bottom illustration as Illustration II. This complicates the matter a little bit, but can be overcome.
There are several key details on both illustrations. Let’s estimate the probability of their occurrence on Entombment/Three Marys scene by random
Illustration I:
· A –the Jesus is naked, with His hands crossed above pelvis (similar on the Shroud) –let’s assume that such portrayal occurs in 1/100 instances.
· B –He has just 4 fingers on each hand, no thumbs visible (the same as Shroud) -1/100 instances
· C –He has His legs cropped by the end of page, without any obvious reason (the same as frontal image on the Shroud) -1/100 instances.
Illustration II:
· D –there is a pyramidal/zigzag pattern on alleged shroud/tomb lid –possible reference to the Shroud and it’s herringbone weave, or merely decorative pattern? Anyway, let’s suppose that we can find such pattern in 1/100 instances.
· E –two red smudges on the surface of shroud/tomb lid (just below angel’s feet). Unless this is reference to the blood belt on the Shroud, there is no obvious reason for them. Anyway, let’s suppose that we can find such pattern in 1/100 instances.
· F –the four L shaped ‘poker holes’, similar to those that can be found on the Shroud –reference to it, or just another (very strange) decorative pattern (or to the holes in the Holy Sepulcher, or anything)? No matter. Let’s estimate chance for their random occurrence as 1/100, but, as someone on the forum once pointedthat the chance for four dots to have proper L shape (instead of single line, 2×2 box, ‘T’, or 2×2 with one row translated by 1 element –recall yourself Tetris) in any orientation are 1/5, so 1/500.
So, the probability for elements A-B-C, to occur on any single illustration can be estimated as 1/(100*100*100), that is 1/1000 000=10^-6
Fine. Let’s estimate the expected number of all Entombment illustrations that could have all the elements A-B-C just by chance. Let’s assume that there were 10 millions of Entombment illustrations in the medieval. Thus expected value, is:
10 000 000/1000 000 =10.
Fine, so far, basing on our assumptions, we can expect an upper limit of 10 Entombment portrayals having elements A-B-C.
Suppose we have one such manuscript, with A-B-C elements occurring just by random (Illustration I). Now let’s estimate the probability that in the Three Mary’s Scene, right below the Entombment Scene (this is is the case of Codex Pray, Illustration II), by pure chance (we assume that both illustrations are in fact, independent on each other, and not related directly to the Shroud), there will be elements D-E-F:
The chance is:
1(100*100*500)=1/5000 000 =0.2*10^-7
Similar reasoning could be performed in the other direction (Three Mary’s Scene -> Entombment). The conclusion would be the same:
The chances that all those features A-F are randomly, and simultaneously portrayed in the Pray Codex, without direct reference to the Shroud, are negligible.
So far I can remember, no sceptic has been able to give example of illustration having two out of six key elements A-F.
The discussion about the Pray Codex and it’s relation to the Shroud seems to be over.
Don’t you think that your probabilistic approach should be based on Bayes’ theorem?
Otherwise, it just sounds like “dwindling probabilities”.
Don’t you think that your probabilistic approach should be based on Bayes’ theorem?
Otherwise, it just sounds like “dwindling probabilities”.
In general, yes.
But, you should have noticed that I used only INDEPENDENT details.
I don’t know what you had on mind writing: your probabilistic approach should be based on Bayes’ theorem.
Whether:
1 Calculating the probability of an individual Illustration (I or II) having either elements A-B-C-, or D-E-F (which are of course independent).
or:
2. Combining the probabilities of both Illustrations I & II having all the elements A-B-C-D-E-F.
Of course in the latter case the Bayes theorem plays importance, and should be fulfilled. But I don’t want to delve so deep into mathematical details, approximation of final probability etc. The conclusion is most important here.
I am also impressed by Jesus’ big beard .
(Just in case you’ll miss what I posted on another related thread)
Hopefully, I’ll have some spare time (a couple of hours) to finish my Flash Illustrative paper by the end of next week. I have changed the title and subtitle for:
Hungarian Pray Ms folio 28r lower ink drawing section:
THE CONSTANTINOPLE/TURIN SHROUD CAMOUFLAGED INTO A SARCOPHAGUS BOX & LID? (or The steganographic crucial evidence)
‘CAMOUFLAGED’. Yes and they have done it brilliantly – not sure why they needed to, of course.
I am not great on maths but if there are six different elements each of which has no more that a hundredth chance of being right (in other words is almost certainly not the the Shroud), I don’t think you end up with a very high probability overall. The one in a hundred is purely arbitrary anyway so does not provide a very good basis to start with, why not one in a thousand? The link of any one element to the Shroud has not been proved. The cut-off feet are hardly relevant, surely. The possibility that this is a herringbone pattern also seems to be zero.
If you are depicting Christ being laid out for burial in a shroud and a face cloth as shown in the Pray Codex and you are comparing it with the Shroud, either as original or created, then the possibility of some overlap is bound to be high. The obvious example is the crossed hands (your A) that are known from actual Christian burials and come into art in both east (the epitaphios) and western tradition before 1190 so you can hardly claim this as a unique link with the Shroud- it is just an overlap..
But I will pass on to the maths experts here to do the sums.
I am not great on maths but if there are six different elements each of which has no more that a hundredth chance of being right (in other words is almost certainly not the the Shroud), I don’t think you end up with a very high probability overall.
I do think that you don’t understand anything Charles.
The one in a hundred is purely arbitrary anyway so does not provide a very good basis to start with, why not one in a thousand?
Yes, for now it is just estimate. Give me examples of features A-F on some illustrations -then we will talk about better estimate.
If you are depicting Christ being laid out for burial in a shroud and a face cloth as shown in the Pray Codex and you are comparing it with the Shroud, either as original or created, then the possibility of some overlap is bound to be high. The obvious example is the crossed hands (your A) that are known from actual Christian burials and come into art in both east (the epitaphios) and western tradition before 1190 so you can hardly claim this as a unique link with the Shroud- it is just an overlap..
I am not interested in direct links -only estimation of the rate of occurence.
The main point in A is not crossed hands, but nudity -the crossed hands are somehow related to it, for obvious reasons.
Or for the purpose of understanding by mere humanists:
I am not great on maths but if there are six different elements each of which has no more that a hundredth chance of being right (in other words is almost certainly not the the Shroud), I don’t think you end up with a very high probability overall.
And that’s the point! What is the probability that those six peculiarities, resembling those on the Shroud, were placed on those illustrations just randomly, without reference to the Shroud?
You may also say that the artist-crook was inspired by the pray codex
Really? By a manuscript in hungary?
ok fine job. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree with Charles, Hugh et al
You may also say that the artist-crook was inspired by the pray codex
Suppose that it may be possible. Even then, it does not change the fact that the chances that all those features A-F are randomly, and simultaneously portrayed in the Pray Codex, without direct reference to the Shroud, are negligible.
See what I mean? So an artist in obscure Lirey was not only the greatest and “most cunning” in history, but he traveled to Hungary to copy the Pray Codex for his forgery that was designed for people in the 14th century who wouldn’t have a clue? That’s more miraculous than the Shroud being the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth in my opinion.
Other similarities that could be mentioned include a seemingly high set chest and long arms
Perhaps, but I only included those that the sceptics cannot dispute in any way.
Beautiful posting OK. The beauty of this blog is that I keep learning news stuff. I never thought of the cropped legs before.
I shall take the maths on trust. I shall simply back six horses running today at a hundred to one confident that the overwhelming probability will be that I shall make a fortune.
I think that position of Jesus, the invisibility of His thumbs, and what certainly looks like a herringbone weave are pretty compelling. What appears to be a copy of the “poker holes” is icing on the cake. I don’t know how anyone couldn’t at least wonder about these things, instead of dismissing them out of hand. I sometimes think about who are the more credulous, people who see something like this and say “wow, that looks like the Shroud”, or those who just shrug and say “it can’t be related to the Shroud”, and just never want to consider they could be wrong. I myself was convinced by the C-14 tests in 1988, but I came back to a belief in at least a stronger case for authenticity because of strange “coincidences” sprinkled throughout history like the Pray codex. This was an excellent posting.
Great post OK. I have long believed the HPG is the smoking gun that definitively links the Shroud to Constantinople. As I remind audiences, if the Shroud disappeared in 1204…that is already older than the oldest carbon date of 1260…and it didn’t just get there in 1204, it had been there for hundreds of years…most likely since 944.
No. Absolutely not. OK has demonstrated, quite succesfully, that the Pray manuscript is probably unique in many ways; he has not in any way demonstrated that it is derived from the Shroud. Speculations such as the probability of finding wavy lines, or zigzag patterns, or even patterns of dots, mean absolutely nothing unless he can demonstrate that these must indicate some sort of relationship with the Shroud, which, as the previous blog and comments have shown, is far from accepted. Even the nudity, crossed hands and four fingers, which really are present on the Shroud, are not necessarily derived from it.
As usual, he does not see the importance of a control. Let’s take the Giovanni Battista della Rovere painting as a comparison. Below the section of the angels holding the Shroud, we have a section showing the Shroud actually being laid on Jesus.
1) The Shroud shows a naked man, the Rovere shows a man with a loin cloth.
2) The Shroud shows a man with feet crossed, the Rovere shows them straight.
3) The Shroud shows each hand with four fingers, the Rovere shows five.
4) The Shroud legs are covered in scourge marks, the Rovere has none.
5) The Shroud arms are covered in rivulets of blood, the Rovere arms are not.
What are the chances that a painting of the dead Jesus which is “wrong” in all these respects owes anything to the Shroud? Astromomically unlikely, I think anyone would agree. And yet there is a painting of the Shroud on the very same canvas!
An attempt to list the similarities between the Pray manuscript man and the Shroud is not worthwhile unless a similar attempt is made to list the differences.
1) The Shroud man lay on one end of the cloth, the Pray manuscript has the man in the centre.
2) The Shroud man has a big beard, the Pray manuscript man does not.
3) The Shroud clearly shows wounds, the Pray manuscript man none.
And the similarities the Pray manuscript picture has to similar “Three Marys” scenes.
1) What proportion of Three Mary’s scenes show a box-like tomb?
2) What proportion of Three Mary’s scenes show an angel sitting on an angular slab?
3) What proportion of Three Mary’s scenes show a crumpled Shroud?
If you see a Three Mary’s scene containing all these elements, what is the chance that in fact none of them correspond to their conventional significance – that the box is not a box but the bottom of a sheet, that the slab is not a slab but the top of the same sheet, and that the crumpled shroud is a repetition of that same sheet, with wavy lines to represent blood?
Chesterbelloc says something interesting: “I don’t know how anyone couldn’t at least wonder about these things, instead of dismissing them out of hand.” Well neither do I. I have wondered, tracked down endless versions of the Three Marys, and attempted to explain the anomalies without trying to hide them or explain them away. I have considered the possible significance of the zigzag pattern, the polystaurion pattern, the line of diagonal crosses and the little holes on the top surface. I have wondered about the design of the shroud crumpled on top, the sharp horizontal line that apears to slice it in two, the little Xs that appear all over it and the wiggly lines at the bottom. I have wondered why the figure of Christ is so unconventionally stubble-bearded and why the shroud he is lying on has a little pleat under his buttocks. Most of these wonders I have commented upon on this very website.
May I rephrase Chesterbelloc’s comment: “I don’t know how anyone couldn’t at least wonder about these things, instead of instantly accepting them without reserve.”
Hugh, at last.
Long post, showing that you still don’t understands the reasoning. So I comment the most important points, without answering all examples.
What are the chances that a painting of the dead Jesus which is “wrong” in all these respects owes anything to the Shroud? Astromomically unlikely, I think anyone would agree. And yet there is a painting of the Shroud on the very same canvas!
No Hugh, exactly contrary. It is very easy to draw a representation of the Shroud of Turin that has many errors and differences from the original. Just try to do it yourself, from memory, without any photos for aid.
Thus the importance of differences is much smaller than similarities.
On the other hand, to write ‘out of nothing’ a picture which has at least six pecularities of the Shroud of Turin? Extremely unlikely.
May I rephrase Chesterbelloc’s comment: “I don’t know how anyone couldn’t at least wonder about these things, instead of instantly accepting them without reserve.”
If you carefully read my post again, you will see that I do not assume that they come directly from the Shroud. I just estimate the frequence of their possible occurences.
I think you can look at this too scientifically and come to a conclusion such as Hugh’s.
We have no idea what was in the mind of the artist of the HPM, whether or not he/she had even seen the Shroud or was just producing an image from hearsay. For me, any representation of Christ lying in his burial position showing crossed arms with missing thumbs (where thumbs really should be visible) indicates something very specific that the artist has seen or heard, and it must be from a significant relic/icon otherwise why copy it? There must be a source for this kind of representation. The question becomes is the Shroud that source or is it just another representation?
I think you can look at this too scientifically and come to a conclusion such as Hugh’s.
He is not lokking at it scientifaclly, but desperately. My response for him is already awaiting moderation.
We have no idea what was in the mind of the artist of the HPM, whether or not he/she had even seen the Shroud or was just producing an image from hearsay.
This question is completely irrelevant in my presented reasoning. Just the frequency of random occurences of A-F pecularities.
The question becomes is the Shroud that source or is it just another representation?
Can you give any idea of another representation?
Last point first, without searching, I believe there are a few sculptures/images showing crossed arms and missing thumbs.
I think any discussion concerning Shroud and HPM needs proper context addressing. Did the HPM artist see the Shroud or not? This fact could drastically affect your probability weighting. Some aspects of the HPM are more certain than others when comparing to the Shroud. e,g.
1. There are certainly missing thumbs on the HPM and Shroud.
2. It is uncertain whether or not the HPM depicts a tomb lid with a zigzag pattern or whether it is the Shroud with its herringbone weave.
How do you go about weighting these perceived similarities when calculating probabilities? It seems to be highly subjective and not amenable to this type of comparison.
ChrisB
Last point first, without searching, I believe there are a few sculptures/images showing crossed arms and missing thumbs.
Point A is not crossed arms, but nudity. Crossed hands simply cover Jesus genitals, so they are not independent trait.
Anyway, those are at most 2 out of 6 elements.
Did the HPM artist see the Shroud or not?
In the presented reasoning, the answer for this question is actually the final conlcusion, not presumption.
Some aspects of the HPM are more certain than others when comparing to the Shroud. e,g.
1. There are certainly missing thumbs on the HPM and Shroud.
2. It is uncertain whether or not the HPM depicts a tomb lid with a zigzag pattern or whether it is the Shroud with its herringbone weave.
How do you go about weighting these perceived similarities when calculating probabilities? It seems to be highly subjective and not amenable to this type of comparison.
No, it works in different way.
I take into account only the facts beyond any dispute on the HPM. So thumbs are certain.
The question of whether HPM presents tomb lid, or the Shroud, is actually irrelevant to me (BTW, Ian Wilson thinks it is a lid). The only important thing is that zigzag pattern is similar to the herringbone on the Shroud, and it may (but I don’t claim that it ‘must’ or mustn’t) represent it.
Then I try to guess, how large perecentage of illustrations may have similar pattern?
Similar with other elements. The conclusion is that drawing all those six peculiar elements similar to the Shroud ‘out of nothing’ is extremely unlikely.
In criminology at least seven or eight minutiae points of congruency that are unique identification points on a fingerprint are needed to make a fingerprint match. The incredible fact is this ‘fingerprinting’ can be achieved through iconosteganogrphy as far the HP Ms-TS connection is concerned.
The incredible second truth is three-quarter of these correlated iconographic minutiae have been missed so far.
‘The only important thing is that zigzag pattern is similar to the herringbone on the Shroud’
I can’t see any resemblance at all, and even less so if you look close up If you imagine the illustrator actually sitting down and drawing in the stepped pyramid design,then it is clear that he cannot possibly have believed that he was copying a herringbone- there is not even a repeated pattern. This is one link of the six that clearly fails, as does the fact that he chose to end the picture where he did.
Crossed arms is not a problem as it was a normal way of Christian burial as excavated examples show. If you are burying someone in a tomb you need to move their arms up over the body and then cross the hands simply to narrow the width of tomb you have to construct ( this can be found as far back as Egyptian coffin burials) but the link with specifically Christian burials is also likely. Perhaps the representation reflects actual burial practices. Another possible avenue is to compare illustrations that were not open to public gaze with sculptures and paintings that were. The Holkham Bible in the British Library of 1330 has a nude Christ on the cross, for instance. When we compare the crudity of the Pray Codex with illuminated manuscripts of the same period, it was clearly not designed for public display but probably for private meditation and there is no evidence that it was ever circulated.
Max clearly believes that the illustrator was trying to conceal the fact that this was the Shroud anyway so this does not help us much.
Charles:
‘The only important thing is that zigzag pattern is similar to the herringbone on the Shroud’
I can’t see any resemblance at all, and even less so if you look close up.’
Your problem. It doesn’t have to be exactly the same like on the Shroud, it just has have ‘something in common’ with it.
as does the fact that he chose to end the picture where he did.
http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/History/Greek-Byzantine/Pray-Codex/pray3.html
He ended -just ‘accidently’ cropping legs, like on the Shroud.
The Holkham Bible in the British Library of 1330 has a nude Christ on the cross, for instance.
Fine. Anything else out of remaining 5?
Max clearly believes that the illustrator was trying to conceal the fact that this was the Shroud anyway so this does not help us much.
Max’s beliefs are just his own.
You still have to cope with the probability of placing all those 6 features A-F in a couple of illustrations just by random, without any inspiration from the Shroud.
The trouble is that we can all find what we want in this illustration. If I were into medieval links with ancient Egypt and the origins of Christianity ( which is indeed a cult subject for some), I would say that the illustrator was showing the stepped pyramid of Djoser at Saqqara, that the wavy lines are none other than the hieroglyph for water, which is indeed a wavy line, and that the left hand Mary is carrying a classical bust of Hermes Trismegistus, who was supposed to have the ancient knowledge of Egypt, under her right arm.
It is a good game when you start to use your imagination.
It is a good game when you start to use your imagination.
One does not need much imagination to link Pray Codex to the Shroud of Turin, instead of ancient Egypt. The context of the Shroud and illustrations in the Codex are the same, contrary to Egypt.
Charles, do you also think criminologists can find all they want in fingerprints? If it is that easy, I challenge you to find only seven or eight minutiae points of congruency that are UNIQUE identification points only to both the HP Ms and say another material object.
And BTW, for everyone who thinks it is a tomb lid, instead of the Shroud:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
What is an angel sitting on?
O.K.,
Actually it is both since visual double-entendre is implied here: through iconographic convention, you can see a sarcophagus box with its displaced lid while through artistic license seeing the inner side of the Shroud folded so as to show only one set of four vertically inverted L shaped burn marks in conjunction with a (transparent?) cross-covered lining oddly folded onto itself to show another set of 5 P-shaped burn marks.
I don’t think so.
It hardly can be displaced lid -look on the image I posted. Check the (weakly expressed) persepctive and compare with upper illustration + position of the angel.
O.K. Don’t you rely too much on impeccable perspective laws when it come to the HP Ms sarcophagus lid. Besides, what do you know about the double or multiple bind he had to cope with to achieve such a steganographic feat? This is light years away from realistic rendering yet to the sole exception of… a few topologically correlated minutiae hidden in plain view and needing x2-x3 magnification to be compared with TS image seen at reduced scale accordingly.
Well there was a movement in the Middle Ages that tried to link the ancient wisdom of Egypt to Christianity and followers of this would no doubt use the Pray Codex for their own ends if someone had started them off and they had followed like sheep.
My point is that we can all see what we want in this and other illustrations.or we can fail to see anything out of the ordinary at all.
In other words: Tthis is and this is not, that is the answer.
Waiting for you to rove your point: (I say it again) I challenge you to find only seven or eight minutiae points of congruency that are UNIQUE identification points only to both the HP Ms IMAGE and say whatever material OBJECT.
Nicolotti and Rinaldi TOTALLY reject the HP Ms-TS connection. So do Berry and Mo.
Charles, If ever you see the image of a pipe be sure this is not a pipe.
Just try to smoke the image of it if it is not made of tobacco. Ugh!
Where are all remaining sceptics? Gian Marco Rinaldi? Andrea Nicolotti? Colin Berry? David Mo? I call you!
(Misplaced post sorry!)
Nicolotti and Rinaldi TOTALLY reject the HP Ms-TS connection. So do Berry and Mo.
I don’t think we’re getting any further. I don’t think the zigzags look anything like herringbone either, but OK thinks they’re sufficiently similar to warrant a comparison. That’s fine, but it isn’t evidence. Stalemate.
I also think the whole picture has been trimmed to make it fit the Codex, which explains why Jesus’s feet have been cut off, and possibly the angel’s wing the other side. I may be wrong, but it’s a far more likely reason than a secret allusion to the Shroud.
Max has only given half of the fingerprint identification technique. There must indeed be several ‘points of congruence,’ but also, there must be no ‘points of difference’ at all. However similar two fingerprints may appear, and however many points of congruence there are, if there are any places where the two prints are clearly different, then they are not the same. Try applying that to the Pray man.
I don’t know what that shape is behind the angel, nor do I think it relevant. The Pray manuscript picture has three prominent features in the correct configuration for it to be a fairly typical Three Marys, with rectangular tomb, oddly placed lid (if lid it truly be; I have long wondered if it is something else, misidentified, such as the annointing stone), and cloth shroud. The chance that these three elements do not, in this particular case, represent those three things is, to my mind, very remote.
Re your question:
“And BTW, for everyone who thinks it is a tomb lid, instead of the Shroud:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
What is an angel sitting on?”.
The angel IS NOT not seated on the tomb but on a throne (as ‘archangel of the throne of G.od’). See e.g. Pala of Oro, The Holy Women to the Sepulchre, Basilica di San Marco. BTW you HP Ms folio image is unfortunately cropped.
Methinks BOTH sarcophagus box & lid-only advocates (Hugh et al) and Yeshua’s shroud-only advocates (O.K et al) do have still many blind spots re the correct decoding of the HP Ms picture!
That’s here an image archaeo(crypto)analyst comes in…
..or better said that’s where an/the image archaeo(stegano)analyst comes in…
The most telling part about the HPM is surely the four fingered hands. Why on earth would the artist miss the thumbs off? The artist is following a template laid down by something much greater. I wonder what that could be??
The chap anointing Jesus also has no thumbs. Missing thumbs are remarkably common in Byzantine art. I wonder why.
Really? I can see one thumb underneath the jar, the other is obscured through perspective. Now tell me why both thumbs are missing on Jesus when at least one should be seen?
Come on Hugh. I think you have an agenda. The lack of left hand thumb on the chap anointing Jesus makes sense in terms of perspective.
Just found this: “The_Burial_Lamentations_by_Theophanes_the_Cretan.jpg” Although Theophanes the Cretan was centuries later than the Pray artist, it appears that he was trying to convey the same surface to the slab. Some time ago I speculated that its pattern was geological rather than textile. The Stone of Unction is a red marble slab. There is also this: http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=add_ms_49598_fs001r which is an early Three Marys, showing the angel sitting on the stone outside the tomb, and this, from the early 12th century, showing the same – and look, red marble patterning again…
Hugh, you wrote: “Max has only given half of the fingerprint identification technique. There must indeed be several ‘points of congruence,’ but also, there must be no ‘points of difference’ at all. However similar two fingerprints may appear, and however many points of congruence there are, if there are any places where the two prints are clearly different, then they are not the same. Try applying that to the Pray man.”
Both artistic and steganological license shall ALSO be taken into account when deciphering. Besides, the TS image does ‘behave’ like an oversized Rorschach inkblot test. Hence the miniaturist could also have copied what ‘He thought he saw’ either accidentally or deliberatedly. In case the same archaeopareidolias (or optical illusions the artist/observer ‘thought he saw’ then) are detectable both in his ink drawing and the Shroud he drew, they are relevant TOO as correlated brain & sight coordinating system spy clues. They are what I would call “detailed image of archaeoperceptive congruency”.
Hugh:
I don’t think we’re getting any further. I don’t think the zigzags look anything like herringbone either, but OK thinks they’re sufficiently similar to warrant a comparison. That’s fine, but it isn’t evidence.
Just another peculiar similarity with the Shroud, one can add to registry. And estimate frequency of their random occurence.
I also think the whole picture has been trimmed to make it fit the Codex, which explains why Jesus’s feet have been cut off, and possibly the angel’s wing the other side. I may be wrong, but it’s a far more likely reason than a secret allusion to the Shroud.
Whatever the reason, the chances for random occurence of it is, I suspect 1/100, or perhaps even smaller. Anyway, the size of the Codex cards is known, so artist could plan it better, had he wanted to portray whole legs.
However similar two fingerprints may appear, and however many points of congruence there are, if there are any places where the two prints are clearly different, then they are not the same. Try applying that to the Pray man.
Handmade illustrations are not fingerprints. There are always some differences. In this case, similarities are much more important.
Have you done your homework and drawn Shroud picture out of memory, Hugh?
I don’t know what that shape is behind the angel, nor do I think it relevant. The Pray manuscript picture has three prominent features in the correct configuration for it to be a fairly typical Three Marys, with rectangular tomb, oddly placed lid (if lid it truly be; I have long wondered if it is something else, misidentified, such as the annointing stone), and cloth shroud.
See once again: http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
Can’t you see that the angel is sitting on some ‘chair’ or ‘bench’ to the left? He is definetly not sitting on rectangular shape with zigzag patterns, red smudges and L-holes. Besides, compare perspective on top and bottom illustration.
Typo: “cryptoimages of archaeoperceptive congurency”.
O.K. you wrote to Hugh: “Can’t you see that the angel is sitting on some ‘chair’ or ‘bench’ to the left? He is definetly not sitting on rectangular shape with zigzag patterns, red smudges and L-holes. Besides, compare perspective on top and bottom illustration.”
It does seem you missed my comment on June 21, 2014 at 4:31 pm
Re your question:
“And BTW, for everyone who thinks it is a tomb lid, instead of the Shroud:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
What is an angel sitting on?”.
My reply was: “The angel IS NOT seated on the tomb but on a throne (as ‘archangel of the throne of G.od’). See e.g. Pala di Oro, The Holy Women to the Sepulchre scene, 10th c. CE, Basilica di San Marco. BTW you HP Ms folio image is unfortunately cropped and spoiled your demonstration re C. Too bad.
I haven’t missed it. I simply have different view. I have checked Pala di Oro. Completely different context than Pray Manuscript, IMHO.
For uncropped view, see http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/History/Greek-Byzantine/Pray-Codex/pray3.html
In the absolute, the very fact the archangel Michael is seated on a throne DOES NOT RULE OUT AT ALL the presence of a sarcophagus (without its lid though) in the Holy Women’s Visitatio Sepulcri. See e.g. the reliquary plaque representing the Myrrh-bearing Women at the Tomb, Sainte-Chapelle of Paris, France or again the same scene in the Pala di Oro, Basilica di San Marco, Venice, Italy.
Reminder: most likely the Benedictine monk artist followed the court of young prince Bela (future king of Hungary) at Constantinople and saw the Constantinople Theophoron (Christophoron). Since the young prince stayed 10 years from the age of 15 to 25), most likely in the latter’s wake, the (then young?) monk should have been one of the privileged visitors of the relic.
Typo: Theophoron Sindonos, the piece of linen worn by G.od (= here Christ).
Max yes the connections were very strong but Hugh And Charles seem to ignore that
Not at all. It just isn’t very relevant.
For everyone:
The scene depicted in Pray Codex is Mark 16: 1-6:
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
(NIV)
I bolded the fragments which show the details depicted on bottom illustration:
1. Three women
2. One angel.
3. Inside the tomb.
4. Angel sitting on the right side (compare with illustration, from women’s perspective)
5. Showing place where Jesus was laid.
Unlike others here who support the HPN and shroud link I don’t think the pattern is imitating the herringbone weave. But I do think it represents weave more generically.
The Scene is also called “Quem quaeristi” which seems to be a paraphrase of Luke’s “Why do you seek the living among the dead.” There are some interesting aspects of its iconography.
Firstly, in almost all the versions I can find, the angel is not inside the tomb, but outside. Earlier versions’ tombs are always depicted as buildings of some kind, and the angel is usually sitting on a stone outside. Later on, the building becomes a horizontal sarcophagus, and is nearly always clearly outside, not in a building or a cave. There are a few paintings which show both the vertical building and the horizontal sarcophagus, but not many. The angel is usually sitting or standing on or posed by a very oddly angled slab, which I think is artistically and culturally derived from the stone he sat on in the earlier versions. Very rarely, but occasionally, there are angels actually sitting or standing in the sarcophagus.
Possibly the key to the odd stone is in the word “revolvere” which is now almost universally translated as “roll.” In fact, any kind of stone that could be rolled is extremely rare in these medieval representations. The big mill-wheel thing that we have become used to is virtually unknown. It would perhaps be better to think of it as meaning “turn away” (there is certainly a turning element to it), which might account for stones swivelled horizontally across the tomb, which occurs quite often, or hinged upwards on end, which also occurs, or just twisted into any weird angle, which is common too.
Wondering if Russ Breault could respond – one of his slides from his Shroud Encounter very clearly shows this herringbone pattern. I was surprised when I saw it that it very clearly is similar to the Pray Codex.
O.K:
– there are 2 “thin” crosses on the ABDOMEN of the Virgin Mary (the central figure of 3 Marias whose “halo” is similar to that of the ” archangel 6 fingers “).
– there are the same “thin” crosses on the “supposed” LEAF of the Shroud identifying HIS CONTACT with the body of dead Jesus conceived in the abdomen of the Virgin Mary.
– it is a question evidently of the Shroud.
Very good work, O.K
Carlos
(en español)
O.K:
-Hay 2 cruces “finas” sobre el VIENTRE de la Virgen María ( la figura central de las 3 Marias cuya “aureola” es similar a la del “arcángel 6 dedos”).
-Hay esas mismas cruces “finas” sobre la “supuesta” HOJA de la Sábana identificando SU CONTACTO con el cuerpo de Jesús muerto concebido en el vientre de la Virgen María.
-Se trata evidentemente de la Sabana Santa.
Muy buen Trabajo, O.K
Carlos
Mi ordenador ha introducido unos links INDESEABLES en las palabras “CONTACT” y “Trabajo”. Ruego disculpas.
Carlos
It would seem that the scene of illustration II is indeed taken from Mark 16:1-6; Three women, one angel sitting to right of women. Matthew, despite his reliance on Mark, only has two women, but also has one angel. Luke is indefinite about the number of women, but has two angels, one at the head and one at the feet, and which de Wesselow wants to interpret as the Shroud image. John only has Mary of Magdala who arrives before dawn, but then summons two apostles Peter and another, probably John. Problem is that none of the synoptics mentions the burial cloths, only John, who has the linen cloths lying on the ground and the head cloth rolled up separately.
Nevertheless, despite Mark’s silence on cloths, the angel in the illustration is definitely pointing towards some cloths. So it might be an amalgam of both Mark and John, or just a free interpretation of scripture. Note that the top edge of the oblique rectangle is still visible underneath these cloths, so that they look more like bandages than a full shroud, although the underlying zigzag pattern does not appear here. Also, for some reason, possibly a slip-up by the artist or not, the top edge of this rectangle is out of line with its left-most extension. Might we construe that a fold is implied. Just to the left of the bandages the area is marked by + marks, and then the zigzag pattern is resumed but reversed. Also note that along the rectangle, the zigzag pattern is reversed at least twice. The area marked by + marks would seem to indicate more cloth.
If the ‘imageshack’ original is checked (see O.K. comment 5.22pm) then the underlying slab is fully visible. Its bottom edge is quite straight as can be checked with a ruler. The oblique rectangle does not pass this test, both long edges clearly have a wave, and as I’ve noted, the top edge is discontinuous. It may indicate a certain cloth with a reversing zigzag pattern.
There are several patterns of small circles on the lower drawing only: a) on the underlying slab; b) on the angel’s belt and on his wings c) on the centre woman’s collar; d) and of course those arranged as an L shape on the oblique rectangle. Nearly all of the hands show a thumb. It is only on the Christ figure where both thumbs are not visible.
I find O.K’s calculation of probabilities far too arbitrary, and it’s not Bayesian statistics. It is in the accumulation of shroud-like features that must persuade that the artist knows something of the Shroud. Any suggestion of Egyptian pyramids is utterly out of context of the Codex Pray, essentially an orthodox christian psalter and pyramids are irrelevant.
Regardless of agreement on this detail or that, the evidence mounts up that as early as 1195, even some unknown Hungarian monk knew something of the Shroud and the features unique to it. The Shroud is not the subject of his picture, and it would be a distraction to figure it in what is after all a simple representation of his subject, a Lamentation at the Christ laid out in death, and the wonder of the Holy women at his implied resurrection. He was not setting out to convince any 21st century skeptic of the authenticity of a relic, but to provide a simple meditation icon for his contemporary monks. Nevertheless he was able to draw on certain resources that he and his brethren evidently knew about, which was enough to provide robust discussion some 800 years after he had inscribed it.
Daveb as previously outlined I believe the crosses represent the shroud image. Then we have the red streaks on one side of it symbolising blood and the L shaped pattern of holes on the other. This is very similar to the shroud where the blood stains on the arms frame the image and the holes are just to the side of the image
A further feature that I’ve just this minute noticed and I don’t recall any previous comment about it. Look at the ink outline behind the upraised arm of the left-most woman, possibly disguised as draping. It looks like a left profile of a bearded head to me, or am I seeing pareidolia? Who is it I wonder? I bet it’s not meant to Aristotle or Plato, and I bet it’s not meant to be a cartoon of the monastery abbot! The eyes are looking directly at the cloths below. I wonder if I’m catching something contagious from Max?
Wow Dave just seen that now? I’ve mentioned it several times. It connects to the head cloth via the floating letter.
once again it demonstrates how symbolic and abstract this work is. The skeptics just can’t get their heads around this and its lack of literalism. Simpletons.
Another observation. I am not convinced by this one but will be interested in opinions.
The staff that the angel is holding links or points to the shroud in the upper picture thus connecting with the shroud in the lower image.
A step too far?
“Simpletons”? You in particular should cease this constant ad hom sniping at sceptics, as you refer to us Thomas. The head in question HAS been the subject of previous discussion on this site as to whom or what it represents. My own idea for what it’s worth is that it represents God, still angled as if to breathe life into a dead body, that the letter “a” was an abbreviation for “life” in Latin. Seek (Google or otherwise) and ye shall find. Personally I have better things to do than constantly recycle old debates.
Read how I concluded my “quicklime” posting yesterday under “Tongue-in-cheek finale” and you’ll see what I think of your term “sceptic” to say nothing of OK’s phoney probability calculations.
Colin
I am sure both you and Hugh are very good scientists. Science is not my strong point, I have a masters and PhD in the fine arts.
I struggle with science. With the greatest of respect I think you guys struggle with symbolism.
It’s nothing personal just a left brain right brain thing.
Still labelling I see, from “sceptic” to “simpleton” to “scientist”.
Where the HPM is concerned, and Flury-Lemberg’s “I spy, with my little eye, L-shaped poker holes”, eagerly seized upon by Ian Wilson and David Rolfe, I’m not a “sceptic”. Too polite. I’m what you might call a scoffer. Nuff said.
As I thought – googleable:
http://shroudstory.com/2013/03/18/the-curious-a-in-the-hungarian-pray-manuscript/
Old, english, male, arrogant, aloof and narrow minded.
Ring any bells?
It’s a simple question between looking at the Pray Codex without preconceptions and placing it within the conventional iconography of its day or looking at a stepped pyramid pattern on the tomb lid and believing that it might actually be a representation of a herringbone pattern.
It very clearly is not a herringbone pattern and it does not have the regularity of the pattern of the Shroud so the probability that it is a representation of the Shroud is close to zero. And not a trace of any the the distinctive images on the Shroud ( Max, of course, will get round that one by saying that this is the Shroud but it is completely concealed!)
So whoever dreamt this up in the first place?
Perhaps some old arrogant aloof Englishman??
Colin, thanks for the flash-back, I now recall doing some mini-research on medieval fonts relating to the ‘a’ like symbol. Most of the discussion focused on the symbol, practically nothing on the ‘hidden head’. No need for old arguments to be recycled, but some thought it was an Alpha & Omega thing, ‘cept it’s lower case and the Alpha when used in this way is always written upper case, and there’s no Omega. Max thought it was the monk’s signature, and even gave him a name. I think it’s still a mystery.
The ‘hidden head’: Some thought it was the monk hiding himself in the drawing, some thought it was God, others someone else. I’m floating the idea that it’s a profile of a Shroud-like Jesus looking down at the burial cloths, hinting that we should look further for more clues about the Shroud hidden in the drawing! Gotcha!
Hugh: Not at all. It just isn’t very relevant.
It is just that all those odd elements O-F are unlikely to happen simultaneously just by chance.
But if everyone of the supposed connections is only the mind of the see- er what can we do about that? It is quite clearly not a herringbone pattern on the tomb lid so why should anyone believe that it is unless they have a preconceived conviction that they have to find, no matter where, some ‘ evidence’ to support their preconceptions. There is no way you can get me to see a herringbone pattern on the lid!!
But following your argument, we also need to look at other tomb patterns. If a stepped pyramid pattern is similar to a herringbone pattern , just how many other of these tomb lids actually show the Shroud in disguise? Perhaps they all do if we look hard enough.
Of course following my argument that this is actually a cult object showing the links of Christianity with ancient Egypt, ,I might point out that an Egyptian Coptic cross is always two equal lengths, as here in the illustration, while Byzantine and Catholic crosses have a long central post with a shorter cross post.
I am just showing how easy it is to construct an argument for almost anything if you want to. And there are actually people who do argue that Christianity was born out of ancient Egypt so perhaps I will get a cult following for pointing these similarities out!
Hugh:
The angel is usually sitting or standing on or posed by a very oddly angled slab, which I think is artistically and culturally derived from the stone he sat on in the earlier versions
Butin the HPM, the angel is not sitting on the slab!
Look once again:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
What is an object, that I pointed with green arrow?
The Pray angel has both feet on the slab (you might like to look at the painting at http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/History/Greek-Byzantine/Pray-Codex/pray3.html, which shows rather more than your crop). I think he is standing on it. He may be sitting on something else (your green arrow) but resting his feet on it, but I don’t think so. He is, as I carefully said, “sitting or standing or posed by” an oddly angled slab, just like dozens of others in similar scenes.
He may be sitting on something else (your green arrow)
What is this ‘something else’?
The Pray angel has both feet on the slab
Yes, he has both feet on this rectangular shape. And he is not standing -look at his dress below the waist, it is not straight, as if standing, but rather curved, like sitting.
Look back to the Gospel:
As they entered the tomb (inside the tomb), they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting (on what?) on the right side
Compare (poorly expressed) perspective on the upper and down illustration.
Can it still be a slab?
Sorry, OK, I see the point you’re making, but I still think the angel is standing on the slab and the thing in the background is irrelevant. His clothes are awkward because of the angle of the slab and the incompetence of the artist.
The thing in the background is irrelevant
It is not, if the artist had drawn it -for some purpose.
Charles wrote:
“(…) looking at the Pray Codex WITHOUT PRECONCEPTIONS (my upper cases. And, as a NON medieval art historian and NON archaeological image cryptanalyst without iconographic and steganographic blind spots too, I suppose!) and placing it within the conventional iconography of its day or looking at a stepped pyramid pattern on the tomb lid and believing that it might actually be a representation of a herringbone pattern.”
Hm ‘conventional iconography’, what about medieval unconventional/cryptic/enigmatic one, never heard of it?
The true fact is I can demonstrate quite the opposite to Charles layman’s opinion on solid iconographic ground as far as iconic simplification/reduction is concerned… Too bad for his credential as Roman Historian (BTW the field here involved is definitely NOT Roman history! This makes a world of a difference as far as how reliable his non qualified opinion is).
Charles also wrote: “And not a trace of any the the distinctive images on the Shroud ( Max, of course, will get round that one by saying that this is the Shroud but it is completely concealed!)”.
How long it will take Charles to have a down to earth vista of the relic and a real vista of what it really was like under actual observation?
Shall I repeat:
Owing to lateral neural inhibition, when the TS weave pattern is visible, the body image is not. The reverse is also true. Besides iconographically speaking, when Yeshua’s body image had already been depicted in the upper section (the unction/entombment), what sense could it have made to draw it again in order to account for the EMPTY tomb? It just would have made no sense and totally ruin the overall effect. Visually, this just would have been at cross variance with the Gospels: Yeshua’s body had disappeared! Still not got the whole idea behind it?
Well you have convinced me,Max, I can’t see how I could have failed to apply the lateral neural inhibition to what was before me.
BTW one of my subjects is medieval relics and if you look up my Holy Bones, Holy Dust on Amazon.com you will find some of the reviews.
But I do Roman and Greek history too. I have been around a long time.
Dave, you wrote: “Max thought it was the monk’s signature, and even gave him a name. I think it’s still a mystery.”
Actually, it reads at three levels (3 as the 3 hypostases of the Holy Trinity).
1/ The ‘a’ correlates with the face seen hidden and in ‘letterised profile’ (LMOS) ‘with eyes shut’ in the very sleeve of Mary (Mary of Joseph = Yeshua’s mother). In Magyar the word almos is polysemic; it means ‘Sleeper’, ‘Dreamer’, and ‘The Dreamed One’. Since the face is ‘added up’/’adds up’ to the composition, it can also read in Hebrew ‘Yassaf/Yossef’. Whence the possible identification of the man’s face hidden in the sleeve as Josef Almos, the Benedictine monk artist and steganographer.
2/The ‘a’ is written in 3 strokes and can also read as ‘a ic’/’a ci’ short for the Byzantine Greek phrase anactacic iecoy, ‘yeshua’s resurrection’ or Byzantine Latin ‘anastasia iesus cristi’.
3/ In reference to some secret hidden/embedded within the image, the cryptic face can also read as apocalipsis iesus cristi’/’apokalipsis iesou christou’, ‘yeshua’s revelation’.
The very fact we have a lower cursive ‘a’ here and not an upper case one, almost totally rules out an ‘Alpha-Omega’ allusion.
Max, I read the full thread of comments at Dan’s posting of 18 March 2013, as soon as I came across Colin’s back-reference to it, and am fully conversant with all the arguments presented there. I found it a most intriguing thread, even in retrospect. I certainly agree with excluding an Alpha-Omega allusion, and I think your interpretation 3 may well be applicable, a reference to the TSM. I’m not happy with the interpretation of the ‘a’-like symbol, partly because of the font (especially when you zoom it to see the separations), and I have yet to be convinced that the monk left his signature or a cryptogram of his name there. That is why I think it remains a mystery, certainly for me anyway.
This will all, no doubt, be a lot more persuasive when we see your “crucial iconographic evidence.” Until then, it’s all makebelieve.
It is up to Max.
So what Hugh, do you surrender (maintaining honors), or go further into absurdities (like Charles and his Egypt), defending lost case?
O.K. Can you not read what I said? My point was that you can read what you want into these pictures and create any kind of scenario, even something as absurd as a link to Egypt. There is a stepped pyramid (see the famous stepped pyramid of Djoser) , a plausible Egyptian hieroglyph of water, a possible bust of Hermes Trismagistus and lots of Egyptian Coptic crosses. So that’s four elements from a single register to ‘prove’ that there was link between the wisdom of ancient Egypt and Christianity shown in the Pray Codex. Nonsense of course but can you prove me wrong?.
Try googling ‘Hermes and Siena cathedral’ – where there is actually a fifteenth century pavement showing Hermes in a Christian setting. Hermes was said to have lived at the same time as Moses.
It’s a GAME you can play with virtually any painting! You just need some imagination and you and Max have lots of it.
Am I persuaded that the artist of the Pray manuscript knew of the Shroud? No, I’m not.
EVIDENCE FOR
Some of the ‘evidence’ is sufficiently common not to require the Shroud as an explanation (the naked body, the crossed hands)
– Some of the ‘evidence’ I disagree with and have (at least to my mind) a more satisfactory explanation for (the angled slab and the pattern on it, the polystaurion pattern, the diagonal row of crosses, the cut-off feet).
– Some of the ‘evidence’ I cannot explain completely but do not think it relates to the shroud (the little holes, the wiggly lines, the thing behind the angel, the letter ‘a’).
– The cryptological evidence I think remains pure speculation in the absence of anything more convincing than Max’s enthusiasm.
EVIDENCE AGAINST (based entirely on the Shroud and the Manuscript)
– The lack of a beard or wounds on the body.
– The positioning of the body on the shroud (top picture)
– The failure to relate the top shroud to the bottom shroud in any way.
– The failure to give the Shroud more prominence (it’s a crumpled heap).
As with most sindonological studies, different people assign different weight to various pieces of evidence, even when they agree on the evidence itself, and different people attribute different meanings to patterns, designs or symbols. It’s a subjective exercise, and no evidence should be accepted or rejected without consideration. I think I fully understand OK’s and daveb’s point of view, and think they have every right to hold it. It’s just not my point of view, which I hope they understand too.
Charles: No matter your games, the fact remains, that you cannot give any reasonable explanation for the presence of elements A-F, all at once, in the Pray Manuscript, other than inspiration from the Shroud of Turin.
I am sorry that I don’t have your imagination, O.K. I think you are starting with the desperate need, that comes from somewhere, to show that the Shroud was in existence by 1195, even if that proves no more than that it might be early rather than late medieval.
I still long to know whoever dreamt this up in the first place. Not an aloof Englishman living out in Australia ,I hope!
I am sorry that I don’t have your imagination, O.K.
I am sorry too, Charles. Lack of imagination and narrowmindness may be a big handicap for someone in the research job. An inability to understand simple reasonings also.
Hugh:
I think you still don’t understand.
Some of the ‘evidence’ is sufficiently common not to require the Shroud as an explanation (the naked body, the crossed hands)
How ‘sufficiently’? Can you give an estimate? 1/100 for naked Christ? More or less? I recall you, I gave 6 independent oddities, present both on the Shroud and HPM. What is probability of finding all of them just by chance? That’s the key of the reasoning.
the angled slab
As I said, this is not a slab. Definitly. Look once again:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
What is this ‘irrelevant thing in the background’, as you called it? It was not drawn without reason, absolutely.
Here is the point of view of french medievist Emmanuel Poulle on the Pray Codex and the Turin Shroud (“Les sources de l’histoire du linceul : revue critique”, Revue d’histoire ecclésiastique, 2009, p. 773). He was almost certain that the Pray Codex represented the Turin Shroud. Poulle made a very interesting comparison with the holes visible in the Lierre Copy in 1516. (sorry, just in french)
“Ce manuscrit Pray […] aujourd’hui conservé à Budapest et dont la provenance originale est hongroise, contient une série de cinq dessins consacrés à la Passion, dont le quatrième représente l’arrivée des saintes femmes au tombeau du Christ; y figure en bonne place une représentation du Linceul dans le sépulcre vide, représentation que des indices permettent d’identifier de façon quasi certaine comme figurant le Linceul aujourd’hui conservé à Turin : sur le dessin du Linceul ont été tracées en effet deux séries (une complète et une partielle) de quatre trous disposés en forme de L qui se retrouvent, en quatre emplacements symétriques, sur le Linceul aujourd’hui à Turin, et qu’on ne voit sur aucun des autres prétendus linceuls, sinon sur celui d’une copie du début du 16e siècle conservé à Lierre en Belgique, et qui est une copie, reconnue comme telle, du Linceul alors détenu par la maison de Savoie ; on ignore la raison de ces trous, qui sont vraisemblablement le résultat d’un accident dérisoire, mais les dessinateurs, celui du Codex Pray et de la copie de Lierre, ont eu conscience que ces petits trous sans importance faisaient partie intrinsèque du Linceul qu’ils reproduisaient.”
Thanks, Tristan. It seems standard view on the Pray Manuscript, nothing that has not been mentioned before.
The Hungarian Pray Manuscript defends itself well. Those illustrations were derived from the Shroud. Simply, there is virtually no other option that makes sense.
It would seem that a certain “aloof English gentleman living in Australia”, who might also happen to know something of the history of Christian iconography, is not alone in his perceptions of the significance of the Codex Pray, but his views concur of those with another medievist on the opposite side of the globe in France. I wonder if Emmanuelle Poulle is also “aloof”, or is this merely a convenient ‘ad hominem’ epithet which can be applied to those with whom one might disagree, when one has no other substantive argument available!
The problem is that a certain “aloof English gentleman living in Australia” is wrong regarding Codex Pray -he thinks rectangular shape is tomb cover, (see Bantam 2010, pg. 243) while I have shown conclusively it is the Shroud – look:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
The object pointed by green arrow is definetly a bench on which angel is sitting -that means the rectangular must be the Shroud.
The words ‘aloof’ and ‘arrogant’ were first used by another contributor to this discussion ! And he wasn’t on my side of the argument!
I have tracked down the Forsyth book and should be able to give you a list of entombment scenes with circular holes in the coffin lid tomorrow. As noted before they appear to have come in from the Crusaders who had seen the actual circular holes in the Sepulchre in Jerusalem. I think that trumps Monsieur Poule’s explanation for them. The crucial question – why reproduce the holes, the damage to the Shroud, but not the images, the most important distinguishing feature of the Shroud ? I have to agree that it is beyond my limited imagination but perhaps not beyond yours.
So the Shroudies are split three ways.
1) Ian Wilson and I assume most people. This is a standard rectangular coffin lid with markings . For some reason the illustrator has transferred the poker holes from the Shroud but nothing else from the surface of the Shroud onto it. (I can’t really believe that anyone can still think that the stepped pyramid lines represent herringbones.)
2) O. K. and his followers . No, the ‘coffin lid’ IS the Shroud despite the other cloths shown on it and the iconographic evidence that this what stone coffin lids look like in these depictions. Query is the shroud folded? Otherwise why are the poker holes running across its whole width?
3) Max. This is the Shroud but you can’t actually see it because of some cryptographic mumbo -jumbo that I can’t understand.
Not sure where Daveb fits in.
I think you should fight your battles with your fellow Shroudies, O.K. before you fight them with me.
Charles:
The crucial question – why reproduce the holes, the damage to the Shroud, but not the images, the most important distinguishing feature of the Shroud ? I have to agree that it is beyond my limited imagination but perhaps not beyond yours.
Yes, it is beyond your limited imagination, but not beyond mine.
The artist didn’t intend to portray the Shroud – he simply inserted some curious elements he saw on the Shroud, presumably in Constantinople. That was simply his vision of Entombmetn/Three Marys scene. No secret code.
Schopenhauer, Eristiche Dialektik:
http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/erist31.htm
Stratagem XXXI
If you know that you have no reply to the arguments which your opponent advances, you may, by a fine stroke of irony, declare yourself to be an incompetent judge: “What you now say passes my poor powers of comprehension; it may be all very true, but I can’t understand it, and I refrain from any expression of opinion on it”. In this way you insinuate to the bystanders, with whom you are in good repute, that what your opponent says is nonsense. Thus, when Kant’s Kritik appeared, or, rather, when it began to make a noise in the world, many professors of the old eclectic school declared that they failed to understand it, in the belief that their failure settled the business. But when the adherents of the new school proved to them that they were quite right, and had really failed to understand it, they were in a very bad humour.
This is a trick which may be used only when you are quite sure that the audience thinks much better of you than of your opponent. A professor, for instance, may try it on a student.
Strictly, it is a case of the preceding trick: it is a particularly malicious assertion of one’s own authority, instead of giving reasons. The counter-trick is to say: “I beg your pardon; but, with your penetrating intellect, it must be very easy for you to understand anything; and it can only be my poor statement of the matter that is at fault”; and then go on to rub it into him until he understands it nolens volens, and sees for himself that it was really his own fault alone. In this way you parry his attack. With the greatest politeness he wanted to insinuate that you were talking nonsense; and you, with equal courtesy, prove to him that he is a fool.
Ultimately it is not status or authority, it is actual evidence that matters and certainly I am not playing on my own intensive researches into medieval relic cults which show that relics if portrayed are usually displayed very clearly (examples illustrated in my Holy Bones).
Once I have got the details from Forsyth (and other sources ) today I shall present evidence that there is a direct link between Hungarian clerics and Jerusalem and hence the circular holes known to have existed on the Sepulchre in the eleventh and twelfth centuries. (As I said before it is important to follow up the international Hungarian connections in this period.)
We are all agreed, I think, that we are not dealing with a professional artist here and there is no evidence that this illustration was ever intended to be circulated. It was probably only for private meditation although I would defer to experts in these specific kinds of illustrations. (See my earlier point that if we take the Holkham Bible as an example (easily found on line), the nude Christ on the cross suggests that nudity ( but without showing the genitals) was acceptable within private books- I defer to experts on this.)
Still you don’t understand anything.
Even if you give me example of naked Christ, even if you give me examples of circular holes from Holy Speulcher, and so on, you still can’t undermine my reasoning.
You have to show that the probability of portaying features A-F all together,just by random, without reference to the Shroud, is far greater than, say one in the milion.
2) O. K. and his followers . No, the ‘coffin lid’ IS the Shroud despite the other cloths shown on it and the iconographic evidence that this what stone coffin lids look like in these depictions. Query is the shroud folded? Otherwise why are the poker holes running across its whole width?
Charles:
Look once again:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
What is an object, that I pointed with green arrow?
The object. Your guess is as good as mine.
What this object can be?
OK: are you not aware of the perils and pitfalls of what is known as “selection bias” (googlable)?
The first person to single out a particular obscure set of line drawings because they showed “L-shaped poker holes” was guilty of selection bias. It’s been downhill all the way ever since, certainly in a probability/statistics sense, especially as the said drawings are for the most part poorly executed, with many features that are obscure or ambiguous (tomb lid? shroud?) as to their interpretation, at least to the modern eye.
The first person to spot those “L-shaped poker holes” in the HPM was I understand Mechthild Flury Lemberg, who is not an art historian, but a celebrated textile restorer not noted for her expertise in probability and statistics.
Her “sample size=1” observation was then quickly taken up by celebrated historian Ian Wilson (displaying selection bias) and then by celebrated TV documentary maker David Rolfe (displaying selection bias). The latest recruit to the bandwagon is an energetic Polish Shroud scholar (displaying, guess what, selection bias).
It’s high time the HPM, essentially an inexpert medieval strip cartoon, was given a decent burial. It’s an egregious example of, guess what… ?
” drawings are for the most parts poorly executed “.
You are 100% correct Mr Berry.
OK: are you not aware of the perils and pitfalls of what is known as “selection bias” (googlable)?
I don’t know what exactly type of “selection bias” you have on mind. The presence of L-shape holes on both TS and HPM, for example, is absolute and undisputable fact.
“I don’t know what exactly type of “selection bias” you have on mind. The presence of L-shape holes on both TS and HPM, for example, is absolute and undisputable fact.”
Nope. They are burn holes on the TS, certainly, but they are small pen-drawn circles on the HPC – not necessarily intended to represent any kind of holes, least of all burn holes, and indeed almost certainly not intended as holes (given the other non-L-shaped collection on the lid/shroud that is rarely if ever mentioned, and the assortment of little circles used elsewhere on hems of garments etc etc.).
It’s also rather stretching credulity to suppose that someone wishing to incorporate a supposed image of the TS into his ’empty tomb’ scene would have chosen the so-called poker holes as his motif, inviting ridicule (“but they came much later dear chap”). He could have used an unambiguous herringbone weave, such as we see on the Lirey Pilgrim’s badge, or discreetly shown some or all the distinctive bloodstains.
Did you see what I said about your probability computation?
It’s risible to calculate the probabilities of outcomes AFTER the event. See the playing card analogy.
http://colinb-sciencebuzz.blogspot.fr/2014/06/might-shroud-image-have-been-produced.html
Counting points of correspondence is also statistically-flawed unless one counts points of non-correspondence too (especially when it’s a sample size of 1).
The HPM fixation has been a nonsense from the word go. I repeat- it shows total ignorance of, or indifference to, the selection bias trap.
Yawn.
I’m bored. I want the delivery van to arrive with my quicklime, having planned all my preliminary tests.
‘ The artist didn’t intend to portray the Shroud’ . Something we can agree in at last !
‘The artist didn’t intend to portray the Shroud’ . Something we can agree in at last !
He didn’t want per se, but he portrayed it -and some of its odd elements like L-holes, cropped legs, naked Christ etc.
Jesus was not buried like a gypsy, with holes in the coffin. The upper part of the image shows his body laid on a slab and being anointed by Joseph of Arimathea. It is possible to make the following interpretation when it comes to the lower part: with the L-like holes etc this part of the image can be interpreted as a burial cloth because the artist appeared to have wanted to convey a weaving pattern to show that it was a (burial) cloth that had been left, empty. In the middle, the rolled up piece of cloth could refer to the cloth that was on Jesus’ head (Gospel of John) that had been rolled up.
Since the artist did not paint a complete image of the tomb, he found this the most convenient way to show both cloths together, although one was placed over the other. But, after all, his intention was to portray the Resurrection.
There’s a few things about coffins and their lids which are fairly universal. If the lids don’t have straight edges, then they’re symmetrical about their centre-line, unless they’re intended to cover a hunch-back. The second thing about them is that when you remove the lid from a coffin, you see an open space inside it, intended to contain the body. Also, only in a few rare cases (none personally known to me) is a coffin lid provided with air holes so the occupant can breathe. I suppose they might be provided where the intended occupant is known to go into occasional catatonic trauma resembling death, and they would then provide some measure of safety for him. The American writer Edgar Allan Poe for instance had a morbid fear of being buried alive.
The edges of the oblique rectangle in the drawing are neither straight nor symmetrical about its centre-line, but have similar curved waves both sides, which may suggest a fabric of some kind. Curiously, this rectangle also has a zigzag pattern on it. This so-called ‘coffin-lid’ is also provided with air-holes arranged in an L shape. The under-lying base does have straight sides, but no containment space is shown for a body. It appears to be a stone slab with some funerary significance. There are no signs of a hunched back on the prostrate figure above, the presumed corpse to be contained, and I would suspect only an extremely remote family connection with Edgar Allan Poe!
Schopenhauer, Eristiche Dialektik:
http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/erist24.htm
Stratagem XXIV
This trick consists in stating a false syllogism. Your opponent makes a proposition, and by false inference and distortion of his ideas you force from it other propositions which it does not contain and he does not in the least mean; nay, which are absurd or dangerous. It then looks as if his proposition gave rise to others which are inconsistent either with themselves or with some acknowledged truth, and so it appears to be in directly refuted. This is the diversion, and it is another application of the fallacy non causae ut causae.
Colin:
Your example with pack of cards is misrepresentation of my argument. The chance for particular order of cards is about 1 in 8*10^67.
But!
Suppose you have one pack of cards in particular order (that’s the Shroud).
And then you have 10 milion (10^7) of other packs, each shuffled in its own order. (that’s illustrations, like those in the Pray Codex).
What is a chance, that among those 10 millon, you find one pack in the same order as the first pack?
If you find one such pack, it is very likely, that it was not shuffled randomly -someone cheated here.
And Mona Lisa/Victoria analogy is also false. I suppose that probability of finding two potraits of four-fingered ladies with charming smile is rather cloes to 1 than 0.
So poor your case, that you refer to such primitive, flawed tricks, Colin?
Charles,
You wrote:
“Max. This is the Shroud but you can’t actually see it because of some cryptographic mumbo -jumbo that I can’t understand (…)”.
Just prepare to have A VERY BIG SURPRISE as far as crucial evidence of the HP Ms-Turin Shroud-Constantinople Sindon connection is concerned! Methinks even prepared, it still will be quite an intellectual blow to archconventional, narrow-minded view.
Yes, mark my words, I’ve got so many iconographic and steganographic trump cards to play and build a crucial evidence for the Turin Shroud-Constantinople Sindon late 8th-late 13th c. CE Benedictine connection, you just have no idea!
Typo: the HP Ms-Turin Shroud-Constantinople Sindon late 10th-late 13th c. CE Benedictine connection
I recommend viewing of Mark Evans photomicrographs on Shroudscope, especially look at the one at the eye – it clearly shows a similar stepped pattern to that of the Pray MS.
I agree. Look at ME-04. The step pattern is obvious to me.
Link here to see it at Mario Latendresse’s Site
Dan, shall I repeat, more than two years ago (see my comment below), I sent you two tale-tellin illustrations (even more telling than the one above) to demonstrate how the the TS herringbone pattern can be iconologicallly simplified into flat square-top stepped pyramid pattern. WHY did not you publish them, it would have save me time and energy… since an image speaks a thousand words.
Under appropriate magnification, the step pattern is apparent. Without a microscope (see ShroudScope or Shroud 2.0) it is not. However, even assuming microscopic eyesight, the Pray Manuscript looks nothing like the shroud. If the photo above covered a greater area, and was rotated 90° we would see these steps going up one side and down the other and then up and down again, in a sort of zigzagged zigzag. What we would not see, but what the Pray artist very clearly intended, is a series of concentric zigzag ‘semi-circles’ radiating outwards from at least six centres. This looks much more like a representation of red marble (see The Burial Lamentations by Theophanes the Cretan for a similar attempt) than any weaving pattern.
This looks much more like a representation of red marble (see The Burial Lamentations by Theophanes the Cretan for a similar attempt) than any weaving pattern.
How many times I have to repeat, this zigzag-patterned rectangle cannot be a marble nor tomb lid!
Look once again:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
What is an object, that I pointed with green arrow?
Can it be anything other than a bench, on which angel is sitting?
And as it is a bench, the zigzag-patterned rectangle cannot be a lid. Period.
That’s a bit of non-sequitur there, OK. Whether the lines behind the angel are a building, a fence, or even a chair does not invalidate the overwhelming probability that the angled slab is the same angled slab as appears in countless similar depictions of the Three Marys scene.
Further to the comment above (8.48 AM), the artist had little room to convey his description of Jesus’ resurrection in image, therefore he brought the two cloths mentioned in the gospel according to John together. Judaean tombs were crude,everything was in stone, ossuaries were in limestone, there was no marble, no embellishments, except for something carved sometimes at the entrance of tombs. It is hard to believe that the artist would have to rely on other patterns to convey that he was referring to cloth.
The HPM artist made a very crude drawing and managed to include at least three indisputable matches with the Shroud – fully naked, arms crossed and missing thumbs. Do the sceptics think that the artist arrived at this simply by chance or whether some established convention was being followed? If yes to the latter, then what do they think the source of that convention is?
fully naked, arms crossed
Fully naked and arms crossed are not independent traits -genitals must be covered by something. You need more independent elements, to prove by statistical significance, that common features of both HPM and TS are not by chance.
The HPM is a enigma, almost as potent as the Shroud. I find the stubble beard on Jesus interesting. The men prepping him for burial both have long beards. Yet the young John (I assume) in the background has no beard. Was the artist trying to show that Jesus was middle aged by comparison to the other three men? Did the artist recall the scriptures ‘they tore my beard’? The choice of the stubble beard is deliberate.
And the angel’s pinky finger in the bottom drawing…the infamous epsilon? And why is he surfing on this lid/shroud/whatever?
Clearly the artist, if he did see the Shroud, did not have time to study it closely. It ‘feels’ more like the artist may have been drawing from someone else’s memory then meshing it with his own imagination.
I tend to agree with Hugh, who has always maintained that there simply is no direct link between the HPM and the Shroud and playing with probabilities doesn’t change that. And yet the HPM hints tantalizing at a connection.
I find it incredible that skeptics can deny that the 4 holes in an L-shape is not a conclusive proof. The probability that this is a definite link is staggeringly high. A skeptic is required to show other artwork of the Middle Ages with such a pattern was common, or at least beyond one coincidence. Also, to deny that the artist’s design was to simulate the herringbone weave is an insult to the intelligence of the vast majority of Shroud aficionados. Repeating over and over that “it is not a herringbone pattern” is not an effective counter.
A summary. Reflections of an arrogant and aloof English historian.
The idea that the Shroud can be seen in the Pray Codex has always seemed to me absurd as the Shroud is not highlighted, there no sign of the distinctive two images and Christ is shown without bleeding wounds as he is laid out making it impossible for him to transfer blood to the shroud in which he was wrapped. The pose of Jesus reflected ordinary burials and was increasingly common in art at this time so no surprises here. Again a decorated tomb lid is hardly unique (see below). Perhaps if I stood far off and took my glasses off I could see a similarity between the stepped pyramid and a herringbone pattern, but close up, as the illustrator would have been working, this link is clearly impossible to make.
Se we need to explain a stone or marble coffin lid with circular holes in it. The answer comes from Jerusalem. The tomb of the Holy Sepulchre was originally left as a rock tomb and in Byzantine representations of the entombment or Resurrection it was always shown like this. However in the first half of the tenth century, the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII covered the tomb with a marble slab but in order for pilgrims to see into it to the original rock he drilled three circular holes, or oculi. From the tenth century in the west , and only in the west, we find artists copying the marble lid and representing the scenes of the Resurrection with a sarcophagus with a lid. In 1099 the Crusaders captured Jerusalem and between then and 1187 it was open to western pilgrims as well as the original crusaders. In the twelfth century the marble lid was increasingly shown with the oculi, two, three or four. William Forsyth gives four examples from the twelfth century e.g. before or at the same time as the Pray Codex. They are on a capital in the cathedral of Modena, on a relief at Monte San Angelo (in Foggio, Italy), on a lintel on the south portal of the west façade of Saint Gilles at Arles and on a capital on a portal in Chartres Cathedral. (He goes on to give later ones as well.)
As he puts it ( P. 9 of his book on Entombment Sculptures): ‘ These oculi were known and copied in the west. The association with Christ’s tomb lead to their being placed on the front face of the sarcophagus, the western equivalent of the tomb bench. In some French fourteenth century ivories there holes become elaborately decorated motifs resembling rose windows.’ So when we see a coffin lid with circular holes in it, I think the inspiration for these is clear.
But these are French and Italian examples. What do we know of a Hungarian connection with Jerusalem in the second half of the twelfth century? We have a very strong one. In 1169 or 70, King Bella III sent a large sum of gold to Jerusalem for the Knights Hospitallers in Jerusalem to buy land from which to have an income to support the sick. In the document Bella said that he and his wife would be making a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and some of the money should be retained to entertain him and his retinue. The Wikipedia entry says that they did make the pilgrimage but there is no reference providedand an earlier study (James Sweeney, Hungary in the Crusades, 1169-1218, International History Review III, October, 198) suggests that they never made it., so I shall leave the question open. However we do know that there was a high-level Hungarian mission sent to Jerusalem with the money. One can assume that they visited the Sepulchre and saw the lid with the oculi in it.
Jerusalem was lost in 1187 but Hungarians took part in the ill-fated Third Crusade to reconquer it. (All this is in the Sweeney article.) In 1192 King Ladislaw of Hungary who had died a hundred years before, was canonised and he was presented as the idea of a warrior crusader knight. The excitement was such that in 1195 or 1196, the ageing Bella vowed he would join the next Crusade to the Holy Land. He died in 1196 before he could fulfil this vow but Jerusalem was right at the forefront of everybody’s minds in these years, the years of the Pray Codex.
This is from two hours library research in the midst of a busy day doing other things but a stone coffin lid in itself confirms Jerusalem is the model as it appears in art just about the same time Constantine placed one over the tomb and the oculi goes with them. No need to look further, I think.
The lesson is if you consider yourself a Shroud researcher, think for yourself and don’t follow Ian Wilson, who seems to have been behind this. The Pray Codex hypothesis. which never had much going for it, is surely redundant. Let’s move on.
Enter ‘google Images’ and search for ‘ Crusader Cross’ and you will find the red crosses that are on the sarcophagus. 1195 was the year when obsession with regaining Jerusalem swept Hungary and Bella made his vow to go on crusade ( see ref to Sweeney article above) So it is hardly surprising that one finds red crusader crosses on the Sepulchre that ,as the coffin lid and the oculi on the Codex, show was modelled on what could actually be seen in Jerusalem.
Whether any other features on the Codex relate to Jerusalem or the Crusaders I don’t know but clearly that is its primary focus.
I am sure that there will be people who insist on seeing the Shroud and perhaps even turtles in the Codex but it seems clear to me that the illustrator is linking Jerusalem and crusading within the traditional iconography of the burial and Resurrection scenes.
I notice the angel has six fingers, assuming it has a hidden thumb. Is that significant?
I’m going to answer my own question. It isn’t. The more I observe and reflect on the HPM the more it looks like the work of an amateur. It’s sloppy, a hodge podge. The artist has trouble drawing hands, he hides them when he can. An experienced artist has the image in his head before he starts and avoids the errors we see in this work. Truthfully, this looks like the work of a ten year old. I realize this may seem an arrogant observation and Max may take me task on it, given the crypto-symbols that may lay within it. But this drawing is so unstructured that trying to draw parallels to anything is going to be unfruitful. Charles is right. Time to move on.
Obviously the artist did not approach the Shroud with a magnifier to see the weaving pattern from close. He may not even have known about the four fingers, in fact Joseph of Arimathea is also portrayed with four fingers. As commented earlier, the point seems to have been to illustrate the resurrection as it is in the NT. He brought Joseph, the women and the two cloths together.
Hugh:
Whether the lines behind the angel are a building, a fence, or even a chair
Those are not building, nor fence. This is simply a bench. Which definitely refutes the claim that zigzag-patterned rectangle is a tomb lid. Then it hardly be anything else but the Shroud. But desperate sceptic will always try to deny the obvious.
David Goulet:
Clearly the artist, if he did see the Shroud, did not have time to study it closely. It ‘feels’ more like the artist may have been drawing from someone else’s memory then meshing it with his own imagination.
I tend to agree with Hugh, who has always maintained that there simply is no direct link between the HPM and the Shroud and playing with probabilities doesn’t change that.
You have a different understanding of the term ‘direct link’ than me. Whether artist studied the Shroud, or was drawing from his, or someone’s else memory, is irrelevant. What is relevant, is that there are at least 6 independent peculiar elements, shared all together only by TS and HPM. Which makes extremely improbable that HPM was not modeled on TS.
Charles:
A summary. Reflections of an arrogant and aloof English historian.
It shows that you completely do not understand anything. You simply cannot refute simple my reasoning, instead making long speech hardly relevant to (mathematical) problem.
No one, neither Colin, nor Charles, nor Hugh, nor anyone has been so far able to refute my reasoning presented in the article above. I suppose no sceptic is. On the other hand, it seems that many either do not understand it, or pretend not to understand.
Last word from me, OK. We are looking at a glaring instance of selection bias, in which someone has singled out an an obscure series of ink drawings, allegedly showing “L-shaped poker holes” (mere circles) and then proceeding to find any number of further “correspondences”. Each of the latter has required the eye of faith – like interpreting a tomb lid as a shroud, or interpreting a zig-zag pattern as a herringbone weave. It all goes back to the initial selection of a poorly executed line drawing, with one ambiguous feature, and then, surprise, surprise, discovering more and more ambiguities, each of which has been harnessed to build a spurious case for “multiple correspondences” . Sorry, but some of us refuse to buy into this self-delusion.
Yeah, Colin. As one politician once said:
They won’t convince us that white is white, and black is black.
Behind the angel there are three lines, two more or less horizontal and one more or less vertical. How you can be so dogmatic about what they represent is beyond me. But suppose it is a bench, and the angel is sitting on it, so what? He’s still got his feet on the marble slab. I really don’t see how interpreting the ‘thing’ as a bench automatically refutes the possibility that the slab is a slab. It’s a complete non-sequitur.
He’s still got his feet on the marble slab. I really don’t see how interpreting the ‘thing’ as a bench automatically refutes the possibility that the slab is a slab. It’s a complete non-sequitur.
And as it is a bench (it is the simplest explanation, and hardly can be anything else), how angel can put his feet on angled, moved away slab (especially on the other side of the tomb- the alleged bench is behind the alleged red-crossed tomb, while alleged slab is in front of it)? Do you really want to clutch at straws and suggest that the artist portrayed such absurd thing, just to defend this slab?
Anyway, slab or the Shroud, you have not been able to refute my article. Which is enough to prove with almost certainty the HPM-TS connection.
Simply:
A) May naked Jesus on the HPM be be derived from TS? Yes.
B) May 4 fingers, without thumbs on both hands of Jesus on the HPM be derived from TS? Yes.
C) May cropped Jesus legs on the HPM be derived from TS? Yes.
D) May zigzag patern on HPM represent herringbone weave on TS? Yes.
E) May two red smudges on the rectangle on HPM represent blood belt on TS? Yes.
F) May the four L shaped circles on the HPM represent poker holes on TS? Yes.
The crucial question is: what is a chance of finding all those elements at random on a single card of a Codex?
The answer to that question is enough to prove connection between TS and HPM. Nothing else is needed. Discussing anything else is waste of effort, and even detrimental.
Freeman’s Oculi: None of your examples pertain. The first example had 3 circles in a row; the second had 4 circles in a square; the third example had numerous holes but none in the shape of 4 in an “L” (nor any “L”), and the last had numerous holes in a large circle. And none of those had anything to do with a tomb.
Constantine and the tomb: again, 3 holes; in fact 3 LARGE holes.
Again, 4 holes in an L-shape is so unique in HPM that it defies normal probability, and yes, they are in the middle of a herringbone weave.
The artist didn’t need a magnification of the cloth to see enough detail to make a rough imitation of the weave.
Yes.
and one only has to look at the earliest copy of the shroud pre burns and / or use some IMAGINATION (sorely lacking here) and one will know that the holes were conspicuous and it is quite understandable why they might have attained symbolic resonance.
Nabber: I am relying on Forsyth who is usually very precise so perhaps you can provide illustrations.Of course, I only included the twelfth century ones made at the same time as the Shroud, there are lots more later ones.
Sorry not ‘Shroud’ – although it may indeed have been made shortly before 1195 if shown in the Codex – I meant Pray Codex.
My comment (1.34) stated that the artist did not need a magnifier and I would go further and state that whatever the Hungarians did in Jerusalem, they certainly did not find the exact location of Jesus’ tomb.
How did the HPM artist arrive at a naked Christ with arms crossed and thumbs missing? Any sceptic of the HPM/Shroud link care to answer?
Ever searched image files for early representations of St.Lawrence of Rome being slow-roasted over hot coals? I have.
http://www.wdtprs.com/images2/11_08_10_lawrence_01.jpg
Note semi- or total nudity, strategic placing of hands. Can’t vouch for incorrect number of fingers however.
Can’t vouch for incorrect number of fingers however.
And on HPM you have all those features together. Probability around one in a milion.
Mr Berry, shall I remind you the ‘slowly roasted Lawrence idea’ comes from me and you just recycled it to have it fit into your scorch theory? Shall I remind you the Benedictine mural frescoe in Berzé-la-ville, France?
On October 16, 2013 at 9:53 am, I wrote:
“Re CB being the victim of a pareidoliac “semblance et avision” is another good example of RE-EXPERIENCED archaeopareidolia…
Actually the first “CRYPTIC SYMBOLICAL” rendering of the vision” of a man been roasted while the observer was looking at the burial Shroud (now kept in Turin) dates back to the first half of the 5th C. CE (see the Maryrdom of St Lawrence/Vincent mausoleum of gallia placidia, Ravenna). Many Turin Shroud data are here YET (steganographicaaly) ciphered.
There is another late 11th-early 12th Shroud-like cryptic Martydom of Saint Vincent/Lawrence by Benedictine Abbot-mural artist, Hugh of Cluny (1049-1109) (see his designed programme of mural paintings in the Cluniac chapel of Berzé-la-Ville in Burgundy).
Actually the two saints are currently mistaken one for the other. Addendum: the 4 series of burn holes are ALREADY cryptically featured in the Ravenna mosaic.”
Mr Berry, had you really searched, you should have mentioned the Berzé-la-Ville BENEDITCINE mural painting too and account for the fact saint Vincent/Lawrence is depicted stark naked with the two thumbs MISSING while in the link you provide, saint Lawrence/saint Vincent is depicted with one thumb HIDDEN.
As early as june 7, 2012 (at 4:04 pm and 1:40 pm), I wrote:
At macroscale, the warp side Turin Shroud weave does appear as a “(flat) square-top stepped pyramid pattern”.
June 7, 2012 at , I wrote:
“I will email Dan two illustrations to back up my comment. Hope Dan will publish them…”
Then on June 11, 2012 (at 6:15 and 6:22 am, 12:13 and 1:36pm), I wrote:
“JUST TOO BAD DAN HAS NOT PUBLISHED THE ILLUSTRATIONS (my today’s upper cases) I emailed him to back up my comment about the Turin Shroud (flat) square-top stepped pyramid weave pattern only detectable at macrolevel. It would have confirmed the Pray Ms miniaturist did represent the Turin Shroud as early as the 12th century CE…”
“See (my demonstration from) Pr. Giorgio TESSIORE 1996 macrographic ink drawing of a Turin Shroud front/warp/inner side portion (front and back covers of his monography entilted “La Santa Sindone E Il Suo Mistero”, Torino, 1997.”
“(…) To get aware of the (flat) square-top stepped pyramid weave pattern (as shown in the Pray Ms lower register miniature, fol 28; PLEASE see (my demonstration from) Giorgio TESSIORE’s macrographic pen and ink drawing along with a good quality macrophograph of the Turin Shroud front side portion. You really need magnifying glasses…”
“When I mean a macrophotograph of a sufficient portion of the Turin Shroud front/warp/inner side weave pattern, I mean a macrophotograph at a regular 24:1 scale.”
Finally on June 12, 2012 at 8:53 am, I wrote:
“The 12th century CE anonymous Benedictine monk either drew the Turin Shroud (inner) side (flat) square-top stepped pyramid characteristic weave pattern from memory (most likely) or copied it from another illumination now lost. Because the characteristic weave pattern is only discernable at macrolevel (HD macrophotographs or macrographic pen & ink drawing by Tessiore), (…) this is what I will identify as (one of the main spy clues) establishing a compelling link with the TS.”
It took MORE than two years AFTER I wrote this for Dan et al finally really start getting aware I was right… Cannot you trace the two illustrations I sent you then to back up my point, please?
Charles most misleadingly wrote:
“Perhaps if I stood far off and took my glasses off I could see a similarity between the stepped pyramid and a herringbone pattern, but close up, as the illustrator would have been working, this link is clearly impossible to make.”
Actually, if you stood far off (i.e. more than three paces off, whether with or without your glasses off, you’d be totally unable to se the stepped pyramid pattern. Your ignorance of the optical reality of the TS is flabbergasting!
Actually, close up, the link is CLEARLY POSSIBLE (see the two illustration I sent MORE THAN TWO YERS AGO TO DAN HE NEVER PUBLIHED!). Seen close up (within three paces) the body image disappears. The disappeance effect is due to lateral neural inhibition of the optical nerves. This is the FOURTH TIME I AM TELLING YOU!
The Benedictine monk artist through artistic steganographic license incorporated the herringbone weave pattern seen close up to solve the new testamental artistic steganoraphic triple bind: to hide in plain view Yeshua’s burial while composing an ink & pen tale-telling version of the Empty tomb event along with textual reference (‘He is not here’).
Plagiarism is one thing. Noting others’ suggestions, followed by go-it-alone googling is something else. That’s especially the case when the hat tip is freely acknowledged, as was the case two years ago on my own site:
April 23, 2012 at 8:31 pm
“In fact, you have just done me a huge favour, whether you realize it or not, by making reference on Dan Porter’s site to the martyrdom of St. Lawrence (St.Laurent in France) whom the Church accused of failing to hand over the Holy Grail/Chalice that he was suspected of hoarding (forgive me if I have got it wrong or over-simplified – this being all new to me, and from cerebral RAM).”
Nuff said.
I did realize it (the huge favour I did to you), thank you. What you just fail to realize though is this is the THIRD IDEA OF MINE you are recycling (first the ‘opaques/sand grains idea, then the saint Lawrence/Vincent idea and lately the alkaline solution). Besides iconographic blind spots, methinks you do have selective hat tips.
“The mediocre professor tells. The good professor explains. The superior professor demonstrates. The great professor inspires”. ~William Arthur Ward. Or was it the word teacher the latter used?
So where do you fit here,Max?
This was just a passing tongue-in-cheek comment for CB who seems to get really good ideas at times…
Sorry not ‘Shroud’ – although it may indeed have been made shortly before 1195 if shown in the Codex – I meant Pray Codex.
So Charles, you are already admitting the possibility that the Shroud is actually portrayed in the Pray Codex. But it is more than possibility -it is almost certainty.
O.K. Read what I actually said : ‘I only included the twelfth century ones made at the same time as the Shroud’. No, it was a Freudian slip revealing my prejudice that the Shroud falls within the medieval centuries.
BTW. I put ten pounds on six INDEPENDENT horses in six INDEPENDENT races each at a hundred to one and I lost the lot. So much for mathematical probability.
BTW. I put ten pounds on six INDEPENDENT horses in six INDEPENDENT races each at a hundred to one and I lost the lot. So much for mathematical probability.
Yes, you lost -because you don’t understand what probability is.
I considered probability for the event that illustrations in the HPM are not directly derived from the Shroud -exactly opposite to what I wanted to show.
Null & alternative hypothesis -do you know what they mean?
Enjoy the sun! It’s midwinter in NZ, we’ve just had the winter solstice, and I’ve picked up a chest infection, probably from winter socialising. So I put a towel over my head to use a steam inhalant. It’s the first time I’ve noticed that this towel has a band on it that looks to me like a zigzag herring-bone twill. I look closer. Or is it pyramids? Frankly I couldn’t see much difference. A lot depends on the angle of the weave, the number of weft and warp threads crossed. I know it wasn’t made in Egypt, most likely a China import.
“Do not give what is holy to dogs,* or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.” Matt 7:6. The early Christians understood this injunction well, were circumspect, concealed their secrets from the enemy, and despite intense persecution survived. The sacred is not the place for profane feet to trample, nor do I know why I should heed the opinion of those I think lack perception of the sacred nor understand its meaning. Aloof and arrogant of me? Possibly. Perhaps it worries me no longer. I shall see what I see. Shall I hold my counsel or proclaim it? I’m not sure. Perhaps I shall be more circumspect, and merely contemplate the divine how I see it. Let others see what they will! Or is it just the chest infection making me depressed?
“concealed their secrets from the enemy, and despite intense persecution survived”,
Double that. I think skeptics can go to great length to claim the Jesus fish doesn’t represent Jesus but merely a representation of a fish.
Jesus fish doesn’t represent Jesus but merely a representation of a fish.
It isn’t representation of a fish, but a turtle! ;-)
Stephen Hawking in A Brief History Of Time starts with the
anecdote:
A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once
gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth
orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the
centre of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy.
At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room
got up and said: “What you have told us is rubbish. The world is
really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant turtle.“
The scientists asks “what supports the turtle”?
The lady replies: “its standing on a bigger turtle!”
Scientist: “And what would that turtle rest upon?”
Lady: “its no use young man, its turtles all the way down!”
To Dan (shall I ask you again and again?):
More than two years ago (see my comment below), I emailed you MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO (on June 08,2012) two tale-telling illustrations (even more telling than the one above by Mark Evans microphotographs!) to demonstrate how the the TS herringbone pattern can be iconologically simplified into flat square-top stepped pyramid pattern. WHY did not you publish them? Did not you received them? Here’s the text of the email I sent you more than two years ago:
“Dear Dan,
In order to back up one of my comments on your blog (June 7, 2012 at 11:17 am #88), please find here attached a Microsoft Word file.
Thank you. Hope the information is useful.
Archaeocryptologically Yours,
Max”
Zone contenant les pièces jointes
Prévisualiser la pièce jointe PRAY MS.doc
Word
PRAY MS.doc
On June 11, 2012 (at 6:15 and 6:22 am, 12:13 and 1:36pm), I wrote:
“JUST TOO BAD (YOU HAVE) NOT PUBLISHED THE ILLUSTRATIONS I emailed (YOU on June 08, 2012) to back up my comment about the Turin Shroud (flat) square-top stepped pyramid weave pattern only detectable at macrolevel.”
Had you, it would have not only confirmed the 12th c. CE Pray Ms miniaturist did depend from the Turin Shroud but also saved many time and energy… since an image can speak a thousand words” (June 23, 2014 at 6:07 pm)
Max, maybe I didn’t understand because it was too archaeocrytological. Just kidding. Sometimes I don’t get things. Sometimes I screw up. Sorry. Just send it to me again.
And I am still waiting for an answer what’s with Kornelimünster…
. “Sometimes I don’t get things. Just kidding.” Of course that you are just kidding, Stephen E.Jones calls you “Zeus”, and Zeus is Zeus …
I am sure that there will be people who insist on seeing the Shroud and perhaps even turtles in the Codex but it seems clear to me that the illustrator is linking Jerusalem and crusading within the traditional iconography of the burial and Resurrection scenes.
Charles, your opinion is as irrelevant, and as erroneous, like opinion of a guy seeing turtles in the Pray Manuscript.
You haven’t been able to refute my reasoning, presented in the article above.
I am sorry O.K but your reasoning seems to be on the level of ‘A dog has four legs,a cat has four legs. Therefore a dog is a cat’ . E.g. ‘The shroud has a cut off image, the Pray Codex has a cut off image . Therefore the Pray Codex is showing the Shroud’
It’s not reasoning that is important here ,it is LOOKING at the Codex and trying to work out what influenced the illustrator, in this case a Hungarian working in 1195 at the height of a Crusade fever in Hungary when his king had just taken a vow to go on Crusade.
I do wish people would not follow Ian Wilson with such complete lack of critical thought. He does seem to have been the one who really started this but those who follow him without checking his sources (and realising that in all his years of ‘researching’ the Shroud, he does not seem to have read any general books on medieval history or relic cults ) are just as much to blame.
The Codex shows Jerusalem, folks, where these scenes originally took place!
I am sorry O.K but your reasoning seems to be on the level of ‘A dog has four legs,a cat has four legs. Therefore a dog is a cat’ .
Charles, being so wise, tell us all how do you recognize that dog is a dog, and cat is a cat.
It’s not reasoning that is important here ,it is LOOKING at the Codex and trying to work out what influenced the illustrator
Guess what?
in this case a Hungarian working in 1195 at the height of a Crusade fever in Hungary when his king had just taken a vow to go on Crusade.
There is no direct link between this and Pray Manuscript whatsoever. At least you cannot prove that. Besides, those illustrations are considered to be older, dating to circa 1150s.
I do wish people would not follow Ian Wilson with such complete lack of critical thought.
Who cares about Wilson here? He, and his subjective opinions is completely irrelevant here -just like yours (and mine). The only think relevant is that there are at least six independent, undisputable similarities between the Shroud and Pray Manuscript -and extremely small probability that those similarities are just random, without direct influence of the Shroud.
You cannot reject the possibility that Pray Mansucript cannot be influenced by te Shroud. You have admitted this yourself: Sorry not ‘Shroud’ – although it may indeed have been made shortly before 1195 if shown in the Codex – I meant Pray Codex. -those are your words.
On the contrary, I can show that an option that those six similarities between Shroud and HPM are just by chance, is so improbable, that every reasonable observer would reject it. You have not been able to show anything against this argument.
And I think you also need to access pictures of the pilgrim crosses etched on the stairs leading down to the chapel of St .Helen within the Church of the Sepulchre as the pattern resembles the pattern of crosses on the Codex. It appears that The illustrator wanted to place the resurrection scene within the Church of the Sepulchre as he had heard about it or perhaps even seen it, there is not a hint of evidence that he was aware of the Shroud of Turin.
Now you’re overstating the case in the other direction. There is indeed a hint. Wilson and others see a link to the Shroud based on a few parallel points: the L shaped holes, the ‘weave’ design, etc. Those are, at first glance, hints of the Shroud.
However, what you (and Hugh, etc) have provided upon second glance are alternate explanations for those parallels. Personally, I feel your explanations are more likely to be true. This does not erase those parallels. If I knew of the Shroud and stumbled across the HPM and saw the L shaped holes, the odd weave, the corpse positioning, I too would connect it to the Shroud.
In my opinion, Wilson and now OK have made an honest mistake. They also are overstating the parallels and are not being open to the strong counter arguments.
At best the HPM should be put aside as disputed ‘evidence’ and only brought out again if some other corroborating evidence (for or against) is found.
In my opinion, Wilson and now OK have made an honest mistake. They also are overstating the parallels and are not being open to the strong counter arguments.
Simple question, David, do you understand my reasoning presented above? Yes or no.
I agree, David. The Pray Codex is irrelevant unless there is really no other evidence for the existence of the Shroud before 1355. You don’t need it otherwise. If it was on the Codex, it would only tell us that the Shroud was in existence somewhere that the Hungarian might have known about, east or west, more likely west, before 1195, so possibly early medieval, certainly a time when relic cults of this kind were very popular. That does not get us much further .
But do look up the pilgrim crosses etched on the stairway of the St.Helen chapel in the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem – they might surprise you.
OK, yes I understand your reasoning. You are saying it’s the totality of the parallels that is significant. But this reminds me a bit of Ten Angry Men. Your verdict is based on totality of available evidence and it seems sound. But Charles and Hugh have demonstrated that the parts (of your sum) can be placed into reasonable doubt — thus negating your overall verdict.
I’m sure John Klotz will jump in here as a lawyer. Could the HPM be influenced by the Shroud. Yes, I see that as a possibility. Could the parallels be coincidence mixed with our reading the Shroud into them? Yes, also a possibility.
I have the sense that we are reading more into the art than the artist had ability to layer in himself. That’s just my opinion.
If the evidence was so conclusive, we wouldn’t be having this debate, would we?
What this debate doesn’t need is either side patronizing the other. It is not foolish to propose a link between the Shroud and the HPM, nor is it foolish to suggest otherwise.
As I said before, at best we’ve got a hung jury on the HPM.
Charles, you wrote: “do look up the pilgrim crosses etched on the stairway of the St.Helen chapel in the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem – they might surprise you.”
Actually I first established a parallel with the pilgrim/crusaders crosses in the stairway. Besides he fact is the symbolic ‘seeing level’ in conjunction with the Holy Sepulchre there are two more ‘seeing levels’ involved here: the literal one (Byzantine polystaurionic ornamentation) and a secret one (that will surprise you).
On June 11, 2012 at 9:20 am, I wrote:
“The picture is all the more cryptologically laden as the field of red crosses (inspired from Byzantine church liturgical garment known as polystaurion i.e. ‘many-crossed’) is here evocative of the hundreds of cross graffiti etched by pilgrim crusaders in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.” Charles you do seem much smarter using others’ ideas as if they were yours…
Instead of EITHER / OR, why is not BOTH / AND ? It is in the nature of the ‘mandala’ that its symbolism cannot be exhausted. (Jung) This raises the HPM to an entirely new level of significance! Ad hominem attacks on Wilson are utterly irrelevant. People will see what they will irrespective of who may guide them there. The concurrence of so many elements connecting to the the TS and its image are too many to set aside so lightly. Charles sees the Jerusalem tomb. He may well be right. That does not exclude the TS, but only demonstrates how well the illustrator was informed, and what use he was able to make of the conglomeration of forms in his mind.
Dave, first of all, we can be with around 99.9999 % significance certain that there are references to the Shroud in the Hungarian Pray Manuscript. That’s the point. Any other discussion about interpretations, or significance of each element in HPM, is in fact, detrimental.
Why? Because dubious interpretations are only play into hands for the sceptics! They can easily dispute them, pretending that they refuted the whole HPM!
Dave you wrote:
“Charles sees the Jerusalem tomb”. Actually he does NOW so just because I had him see it (see my comment on June 11, 2012 at 9:20 am re. the Holy Sepuchre and the crosses etched on the stairway wall). I’ll make him see more things in the PH Ms he has not yet seen, by soon.
I agree, David. The Pray Codex is irrelevant unless there is really no other evidence for the existence of the Shroud before 1355. You don’t need it otherwise.
Your logic, Charles, is astounding. So is there other evidence for the existence of the Shroud before 1355?
If yes, then HPM indeed may be ‘overkill’.
And if not, the HPM is enough to prove existence of the Shroud before 1195 -showing that 1988 carbon-dating cannot be trusted.
If it was on the Codex, it would only tell us that the Shroud was in existence somewhere that the Hungarian might have known about, east or west
The most important think is that it was in existence before 1195 – and so before 1260-1390 claimed by 1988 C14 dating.
It doesn’t say where, but…
more likely west
Less likely. What indicators do you have for West? None. And for the East -you have several documents showing the presence of alleged burial cloths, most notably Robert de Clari’s mention of the sydoines with the figure of Our Lord on it -exactly like on the Shroud of Turin.
so possibly early medieval, certainly a time when relic cults of this kind were very popular.
And when were they not popular?
That does not get us much further .
That, first of all, refutes 1260-1390 dates from 1988 dating. Which makes the date of the Shroud production unknown -all dates are permitted.
The fact remains that an art historian is best placed to judge whether the HPM was influenced by the shroud. De wesselow is a well qualified one and thinks the answer is ‘yes’. It would be interesting to see a peer review of de wesselow’s conclusions.
The fact remains that an art historian is best placed to judge whether the HPM was influenced by the shroud.
No Thomas, the art historians are not proper for that job. They are not better qualified than we are. They do not have methodology to determine whether there are direct relations between particular objects (like TS and HPM), and they are often uncritically stuck to their paradigms. They have the knowledge, but not understanding. The best qualified people for that job are in police.
I am traveling and I will be synthetic.
O.K.’s proposal has several basic mistakes:
1. Errors of knowledge of the medieval art. The percentages assigned to some characteristics are erroneous (very low). Croissed hands, thumbs, etc. See here: https://picasaweb.google.com/112820198650228388541/Lienzo_prolong#
2. Ambiguity in the concepts. “Similar to” is not mathematically useful. Croissed hands are not a hand over the other. Etc.
3. Confusion between different objects. The shroud of Turin is not a representation of Jesus in the tomb.
I will be more explicit Saturday morning.
We see another sceptic desperately and ignorantly trying to dispute my conclusions. Fine. Let’s show David Mo’s misunderstandings:
1. Errors of knowledge of the medieval art. The percentages assigned to some characteristics are erroneous (very low). Croissed hands, thumbs, etc. See here: https://picasaweb.google.com/112820198650228388541/Lienzo_prolong#
Excellent gallery, David Mo. It shows how improbable is to find by chance all six elements A-F I mentioned in the Pray Codex at once .It supports my view much more than yours.
2. Ambiguity in the concepts. “Similar to” is not mathematically useful.
They are similar enough to warrant comparison. And no matter of similarity, for sceptics they are inconvenient enough, that they try to reject them outright, under any slightest pretext.
Croissed hands are not a hand over the other. Etc.
Crossed hands do not interest me here at all.
3. Confusion between different objects. The shroud of Turin is not a representation of Jesus in the tomb.
Confusion present yourself, David Mo. You don’t understand (or pretend not to understand) anything.
Fools…
great gallery. But does not in any way dismiss the HPM / Shroud theory.
All it really shows is that in itself the figure of Christ in art with crossed hands was not unique.
But as we all know that is but one of many similarities between the HPM / Shroud.
Few of the images have holes / circles on the sarcophagus. In the rare case that they do they make artistic sense, unlike the circles on the HPM.
The art tradition of Jesus with short beard – consistent with the Shroud – is interesting. Jesus’s short beard in art works often contrasts with the long beards of other figures.
Where could this tradition come from, if not from the shroud? I would have thought the natural tendency would have been to portray Jesus with long beard, a sign of wisdom and knowledge in antiquity
A good point.
I’ll also take this chance to point out as just as there is an artistic tradition of showing an empty sarcophagus and lid, there is also a tradition of showing sarcophagus with no lid, and the shroud, and sometimes shroud plus head cloth – consistent with the HPM:
Dave you wrote: on June 25, 2014 at 5:58 pm, you wrote:
“Instead of EITHER / OR, why is not BOTH / AND ?”
This is exactly what I have been telling and retelling you et al in this blog for more than TWO YEARS as far as Medieval Benedictine cryptic iconography is concerned! ‘At times it takes the uninitiated eye-brain time to correctly use its coordination system and for a new and old forgotten encoded truth to finally come out…
“–the Jesus is naked, with His hands crossed above pelvis (similar on the Shroud) –let’s assume that such portrayal occurs in 1/100 instances.”
“Crossed hands do not interest me here at all.”
You were interested to crossed hands and you assigned a probability to this feature. If you change your opinion it will be correct to say it.
My mistake is that I even mentioned those crossed hands in the descritpion above.
Actuallly the only point that interest me in A is “Jesus is naked.” The crossed hands potentially can be described as just a consequence of this.
OK, yes I understand your reasoning. You are saying it’s the totality of the parallels that is significant. But this reminds me a bit of Ten Angry Men. Your verdict is based on totality of available evidence and it seems sound. But Charles and Hugh have demonstrated that the parts (of your sum) can be placed into reasonable doubt — thus negating your overall verdict.
The reality is not Hollywood. I knew that the parts can be placed into “reasonable doubt” -that’s why assigned probability of around 1/100 fro them. But conjunction of all of them is so improbable, that within all reasonable limits we can reject the possibility that HPM was not influenced by the Shroud.
If the evidence was so conclusive, we wouldn’t be having this debate, would we?
Because no matter what arguments in favor would be, the verdict certainly is unacceptable by the sceptics. That’s why they resort to anything, splitting hairs, counting on that we, supporters, get lost in all those details, and they triumphally declare their “refutation” of the Codex argument. That’s why we should abstain from any speculations and concentrate simply on reasoning -which is quite simple, and I think hardly possible to undermine.
However the sceptics, spreading the chaos in cynical way, are preying for (sorry for that term) a sucker, who would fall into doubts and say we’ve got a hung jury on the HPM That’s what they want.
Your last paragraph betrays your bias. You disparage me and any other open-minded person who dares to question your assertions by presuming to read our minds.
Your probability ratios are completely arbitrary. Can you at least provide a statistician a copy of this posting and have him/her peer review it?
Suckers are suckers because they too easily accept a single point of view, right?
Suckers are suckers because they too easily accept a single point of view, right?
No, because they are simply naive victims to someone’s else dirty games. Reading minds is quite simple, actually. And 10×10=100, no matter the bias. Probability ratios are maybe a little bit arbitrary, but given what has been presented here by the sceptics, I suppose they are good enough estimate. And whether it is 1/100, 1/50 or 1/1000 doesn’t change the final conclusion, really.
But an art historian who is trained to use his eyes will look at the Shroud and see the predominant features, its size, the images and the bloodstains. There is no evidence of any of them on the Codex and the depiction of Christ’s body shows that the artist had no idea of their being any bloodstains at all at the moment of burial,let alone any that could be transferred to the Shroud. So my guess is that he would say that this is a non-starter.
O. K. starts the other way round. He assumes that this is the Shroud and searches around desperately for any element of it that can be seen in parallel with the Codex. He comes up with just the things that an artist is unlikely to depict, the damage on the Shroud.
And it is no good pointing out that the artist is representing the Church of the holy Sepulchre Jerusalem as he had seen or heard it to be , and as we know it to have been, with a marble lid over the rock tomb, with circular openings and, in the same church red pilgrim or crusader crosses.
The Shroud was only one of many cloths claiming to be the real Shroud. There are more recorded in the west than in the east and it is especially strange that the artist would not want to distinguish it from these by showing the images , bloodstains, and size that everyone would notice at once and know exactly what his aim was..
We don’t lose anything by simply saying that there is no real evidence that this is the Shroud. It may well be that searching around can find an early depiction which matches the main features of the Shroud more closely. Accepting the dubious connection between the Shroud and the Pray Codex seems to have frozen any other kind of new research.
Charles, your last paragraph makes a lot of sense to this sucker.
Charles, back to the starting point:
A) May naked Jesus on the HPM be be derived from TS? Yes.
B) May 4 fingers, without thumbs on both hands of Jesus on the HPM be derived from TS? Yes.
C) May cropped Jesus legs on the HPM be derived from TS? Yes.
D) May zigzag patern on HPM represent herringbone weave on TS? Yes.
E) May two red smudges on the rectangle on HPM represent blood belt on TS? Yes.
F) May the four L shaped circles on the HPM represent poker holes on TS? Yes.
Can you prove the opposite, to any of the point A-F? No.
I am not interested what the artist actually wanted to depict.
The crucial question is: what is a chance of finding all those elements at random on a single card of a Codex?
The answer to that question is enough to prove connection between TS and HPM. Nothing else is needed.
Can you adress to those points, instead of wasting many words on rubbish talks about Church of Holy Sepulchre, etc. ?
I have a question about those poker holes. The L shaped ones on the top ‘sheet’ are very curious and remind me of the Shroud. But the ones on the under ‘sheet’ are not L shaped, but almost look like part of a circle (partially hidden). Shouldn’t they align with the upper sheet?
David (Goulet):
Charles, your last paragraph makes a lot of sense to this sucker.
If you consider Charles, to be honest and free of bias, very well. Your choice. I only warned…
I could care less about his bias, or yours. No one here is free of bias. I’m discerning what I believe based on his argument and yours. You’ve made some valid points, as he. I’ll admit I’m no expert on probability and that’s why it would be helpful if a stats person, or advanced mathematician could corroborate your probability assessment. That would bolster your case…with me anyway.
O.K. ‘ I am not interested what the artist actually wanted to depict’. Yes, you have made this clear all the way along . The rest of us ARE interested in what he was trying to depict and personally I don’t think he had ever seen or heard of the Shroud as if he had, and believed it to be in some way special, he would have made SOME effort to put some of its distinctive features into his work.
To the point Charles. We don’t look into the mind of the artist, only on the result of his job.
Me again.
A) “May naked Jesus on the HPM be be derived from TS? Yes.”
No. A figure derived from a supposedly genuine image of Jesus must look a bit like him. Specifically, it must have a full beard and a moustache. If it doesn’t have those fundamental identifying characteristics, it cannot be considered the same man, regardless of the pose or the nudity.
B) “May 4 fingers, without thumbs on both hands of Jesus on the HPM be derived from TS? Yes.”
No. Byzantine pictures often show people with no thumbs, but it was not until I studied David Mo’s selection that I realised how many. A third or so of his images show Jesus, and often others, with no thumbs. If the Pray manuscript may derive from the Shroud, then so may all the other Byzantine people with no thumbs, which is absurd.
C) “May cropped Jesus legs on the HPM be derived from TS? Yes.”
No. For a start we don’t even know if the image is cropped, and for a second the fact that both shroud and feet are cropped does not demonstrate any kind of connection between the Shroud and the Pray image. I consider this very far fetched indeed.
D) “May zigzag patern on HPM represent herringbone weave on TS? Yes.”
No. I’ve explained why not, and do not need to go into it further.
E) “May two red smudges on the rectangle on HPM represent blood belt on TS? Yes.”
No. The blood belt on the shroud shows interlacing lines, the Pray lines are alongside each other. It is inconceivable that an artist would represent interlacing lines with parallel ones.
F) “May the four L shaped circles on the HPM represent poker holes on TS? Yes.”
No. They are not on the Shroud but the Tomb.
“Can you prove the opposite, to any of the point A-F? No.”
No, nor can I prove that Timothy Linick was not a Soviet spy, or that Jesus wasn’t abducted by aliens. OK is confusing probability with proof.
“The crucial question is: what is a chance of finding all those elements at random on a single card of a Codex?” Well the answer is: absolute certainty. Because there is such a page. That is not the crucial question at all. The crucial question is: are the two images sufficiently similar, or do the images contain sufficient similar allusions, to make it likely that one derives from the other, and that they do not both derive from a different common source This is not a matter of mathematical calculation, as the weight of each feature is largely subjective. OK and daveb think the matter conclusive one way, Charles and I think their conclusions are wrong. So it goes.
“I am not interested what the artist actually wanted to depict.”
That is a pity, because I think the intention of the artist is a fascinating question. Does the polystaurion pattern reflect the Jerusalem staircase? Are the radiating zigzagging semicircles depictions of the marble of the Stone of Unction? Why is the Shroud shown as if it were almost transparent? And what are those little holes on the slab? These are much more interesting questions than inquiries about the supposed similarity between the Pray image and the Shroud.
Hugh, the defence of your point of view is desperate, really… Over-skepticism kills skepticism.
Me again.
A) “May naked Jesus on the HPM be be derived from TS? Yes.”
No. […]
Hugh, do you understand the difference between may and must? English is your native language, not mine. I don’t express necessities -but possibilities. And you cannot deny them.
“The crucial question is: what is a chance of finding all those elements at random on a single card of a Codex?” Well the answer is: absolute certainty. Because there is such a page.
Hugh, do you read with understanding? I wrote finding all those elements at random. That means, without direct relation to the Shroud (then it wouldn’t have been random). Someone just portrayed all those elements from Heveans know what, Holy Sepulcher, Byzantine arts, no matter. At random, that means what is probability of occurence of all those elements, without influence of the Shroud.
Don’t suggest too much David’s Mo selection, because it is selection -so it is not representative. However, even then it shows how unlikely is to obtain six independent peculiarities with the Shroud simply by chance.
“I am not interested what the artist actually wanted to depict.”
That is a pity, because I think the intention of the artist is a fascinating question.
Fascinating, but not necessary to show the relation between HPM and the Shroud -and actually only distracting from it.
I do indeed, and to be frank I do not think the figure in the Pray manuscript can derive from the Shroud. I have been trying to imagine myself as a Benedictine monk who had seen the Shroud, setting off to illustrate a liturgical text. The most important aspect of the Anointing scene would not be the furniture or even the pose of the body, it would be the depiction of he dead Christ. It is inconceivable that someone who thought he knew what Christ looked like at the very moment he was attempting to paint would not attempt to depict him accurately, complete with moustache and beard. So yes, I deny the possibility that the Pray man derives from the Shroud. Is that not reasonable?
Me again.
A) “May naked Jesus on the HPM be be derived from TS? Yes.”
No. A figure derived from a supposedly genuine image of Jesus must look a bit like him. Specifically, it must have a full beard and a moustache. If it doesn’t have those fundamental identifying characteristics, it cannot be considered the same man, regardless of the pose or the nudity.
No. An artistic representation is always that – a representation. Especially in terms of an “artist” with the obvious limitations of the HPM artist, there will be limits on his ability to represent the shroud.
Also it is not at all obvious that the Shroud Man’s beard is full and long. TO me, it is not really a big full bushy beard. Remember too that we have the benefit of digital enhancement, and photo negative, which they obviously didn’t have in the 1100s.
B) “May 4 fingers, without thumbs on both hands of Jesus on the HPM be derived from TS? Yes.”
No. Byzantine pictures often show people with no thumbs, but it was not until I studied David Mo’s selection that I realised how many. A third or so of his images show Jesus, and often others, with no thumbs. If the Pray manuscript may derive from the Shroud, then so may all the other Byzantine people with no thumbs, which is absurd.
This is a good challenge. But I don’t think you can so categorically say “No.”
C) “May cropped Jesus legs on the HPM be derived from TS? Yes.”
No. For a start we don’t even know if the image is cropped, and for a second the fact that both shroud and feet are cropped does not demonstrate any kind of connection between the Shroud and the Pray image. I consider this very far fetched indeed.
I agree this isn’t the most convincing attribute. But again I don’t think it can necessarily be dismissed. I guess the artist may simply have run out of room and not planned the image properly
D) “May zigzag patern on HPM represent herringbone weave on TS? Yes.”
No. I’ve explained why not, and do not need to go into it further.
Again, your categorical dismissal is unjustified.
E) “May two red smudges on the rectangle on HPM represent blood belt on TS? Yes.”
No. The blood belt on the shroud shows interlacing lines, the Pray lines are alongside each other. It is inconceivable that an artist would represent interlacing lines with parallel ones.
I disagree with OK that these represent the blood belt. But I DO think they represent blood on the shroud, either in a generic sense, or possibly with reference to the streaks on each of the two arms.
Absolutely no compelling alternative explanation has been put forward.
“I don’t know” is not compelling.
F) “May the four L shaped circles on the HPM represent poker holes on TS? Yes.”
No. They are not on the Shroud but the Tomb.
Again, unjustified dismissal. No convincing evidence has been presented arguing what these non-decorative circles could otherwise be.
I must say, the extreme views on both sides of this debate are rather frustrating.
Ok then let’s imagine. A senior Hungarian cleric travels to Constantinople in the late 1100s in an entourage.
he sees the shroud ceremoniously displayed. The frontal figure is only displayed for reasons of modesty.
He sees the notoriously faint image of Jesus in its ephemeral mystery disappearing and appearing depending on how close he gets.
pre 1500s burns the poker holes are conspicuous, indeed the most obvious feature on the shroud.
The blood strikes a chord particularly the two prominent streaks on the arms.
Years later the cleric portrays some of these features slightly abstractly in the HPM illustration. He shows the poker holes. He shows the blood streaks. He shows the mysterious ephemeral image of Christ as an ephemeral cross filled element on the shroud which is framed on one side by the poker holes and on the other by the blood streaks
So yes, I deny the possibility that the Pray man derives from the Shroud. Is that not reasonable?
Yes, it is not reasonable. You know why? You wrote:
I have been trying to imagine myself as a Benedictine monk who had seen the Shroud, setting off to illustrate a liturgical text.
And that’s the error, you and Charles commit. You can’t imagine yorselves as Benedictine monks, trying to guess what the guy who painted those illustrations had on mind. He had his own purpose, you don’t know what, and chose those elements he considered proper for it. You cannot paint those illustrations for him, you just can analyze 800 years later the result of his job.
The fact is that there are at least six major, independent peculiar details shared between HPM and the Shroud. And the chance that they are all just combination out of anything but the Shroud, is very minute.
That’s not a fact. Three of your identities depend on a conviction that the Shroud and the Pray manuscript are related in the first place (herringbone, cut off feet and blood chain), and another depends on a denial that the rectangular blocks on the Pray manuscript are what they are in dozens of similar scenes (holes). One derives directly from the biblical situation (nudity) and the last is true of many completely unrelated Byzantine figures (four fingers). Your original collection of probabilities simply demonstrates that there is only one Pray image, not that it has any relationship to the Shroud. There are not “six major, independent peculiar details shared between HPM and the Shroud.” That is simply wishful thinking.
Only five days since the original posting, we have notched up some 210 comments, and as yet there is no resolution in sight mainly because of intransigence. I think Max has a valid point that there is much more to the HPM drawing than the two leading contenders are prepared to concede.
The idea that the Shroud might be authentic, that it actually existed before 1195, is too much of a challenge for Charles’ innate skepticism, and instead of allowing his artistic vision to perceive what might in fact be represented there, he gives the impression that his interpretation is driven from an agenda of stubborn refusal to acknowledge that the TS might even have existed at that date.
On the other hand, O.K. seems uncompromising in being prepared to concede that there may be significance in the elements present relating to the Jerusalem tomb, as propounded by Charles. He seems concerned that any such concession risks diluting his claim that the artist knew of and intended to represent elements of the Shroud.
I found the gallery of David Montero intriguing and inspected the dates there carefully. The impression I was left with was that the HPM had to be one of the very earliest attempts at representing a Lamentation or burial scene. There seemed to be few there that predated the 12th century, although I’m given to understand that there are indeed a few extant. So we might presume that the artist would not feel too constrained by precedent.
I continue to feel personally persuaded that the artist did know something of the Shroud and this influenced his depiction. However this was not the subject he chose to represent, The picture is I should think intended as a meditation object for his fellow monks, He had no agenda of establishing the Shroud’s existence. He wanted the focus to be on the laying out and burial of the dead Christ, and the sense of wonder of the Holy women that he was no longer there in the tomb on the Sunday morning and their puzzlement at the message of the angel.
Nevertheless the elements of the Shroud are clearly present. The virtually naked Christ is as far as I can recall unprecedented. The crossed arms with only four fingers showing, the omission of the feet, and other features, have to be significant. The underlying base seems to me to be more of a stone slab than an intention to represent the casket that is shown in later depictions. I am not convinced that the oblique rectangle is intended to represent a casket lid as asserted by Ian Wilson, Charles or Hugh, even though this is clearly the intention in other depictions of similar scenes. Its edges are clearly neither straight nor symmetrical, but curved, suggesting to me more of a fabric than a box lid. The zigzag pattern on this rectangle is sufficiently indicative of the herring-bone twill to at least give pause and ought not to be set aside so lightly.
The array of solid crosses and the indications of holes on the stone slab may be an echo of what returning crusaders had seen in Jerusalem. Reference has been made to King Bella and his resolution to embark on a crusade. There are several reports of important western personages being admitted to view the imperial relics in Constantinople, even with coherent reports of some viewing the Shroud. Is it not conceivable that Bella himself knew of it?
The slab circles may be intended to represent oculi that the crusaders had seen. But the fact that the four holes arranged in an ‘L’ shape are in the middle of what might be represented as a herring bone twill, are just a little too persuasive for me.
There remain other enigmas in the picture; the suggestion of a not-too-well concealed head in the woman’s drapery, and the peculiar alpha like symbol, might be interpreted in various ways, as discussed.
My personal conclusion is that O.K. has made his point, that the accumulation of features is just too persuasive to deny that the artist had some knowledge of the Shroud cloth, and judging from the prostrate Christ figure, even the image that it held. That is not to say that there may well be other factors that might also have influenced him.
The issue is not whether the Shroud existed before 1355 or not, it is whether, existing or not, it is specifically shown in the Pray Codex. I can’t see it nor can I find it anywhere on the Bayeux Tapestry and anywhere else that I have looked for a double bloodstained image of Christ. Even so if it does not exist in the Pray Codex then there may be some other evidence elsewhere for its existence.
So I would simply take it out of the argument – as the Shroud might or might not have been in existence by 1195. Perhaps it was made in 1100, perhaps made in 700 as carbon dating suggests the sudarium of Oviedo was made, perhaps even earlier. Perhaps it is 1330s after all. The Pray Codex does not help at all and the fascinating thing to me is that why it was ever picked out when one could surely find other illuminations with similar imaginative parallels. See how easy it was to fit the Pray Codex the cult that believes that Christianity came from ancient Egypt.
As commented previously, the artist wanted to emphasise the resurrection and included whatever he knew in limited space: The TS, the cloth around the head mentioned in the gospel according to John, something about the tomb in Jerusalem.
P.S . The real concern in all this is that, judging from the St.Louis programme, no one seems to have found any new historical evidence for thirty years. Everyone is still arguing over unsatisfactory sources such as the Pray Codex and no one seems to be doing any systematic work outside this. So no one has brought up any research on the early direct contacts between Constantinople and Jerusalem ( before the Arab Conquests) , no one has done anything on the relics trade between Jerusalem and Northern France that is actually documented and includes relics from the ‘Lord’s Tomb’. And we are still arguing over the Pray Codex . ( Yes, I am to blame for wasting my time on it too.)
Again no one is doing any work on the actual weave of the Shroud. It will probably be a chance event , like someone working in a conservation lab on medieval linens, who finds some key evidence that can be linked back into what we know of the chemistry of the Shroud and provide a date for it independently of the radiocarbon date. This is what happened with the Horses of St. Mark’s in Venice. No one could date them and the last big study said fourth century BC. Then the conservation lab in the British Museum working on gilded copies found conclusive evidence that the same technique of gilding on the horses was only developed in the second century AD and the issue was solved overnight. Watch out for the conservation labs, folks! There are real open- minded experts who specialise in early weaving and images on cloths and it is the failure to make any comparative studies of the Shroud with other surviving textiles which is another enormous gap in what is supposed to be the most thoroughly researched artefact of all time!
I think daveb’s comment above is excellent, which I why I left the topic for a while before popping back in. The Pray illustration is certainly a bit of a puzzle, and among others I have been grateful to Max for sending me off to find out more about polystaurion patterns, to Charles for reminding me of the Jerusalem pilgrim steps, to David Mo for his astonishing collection of images (I tried, but although Three Marys are two a penny on the internet, Lamentations seem hard to come by), and to the inspiration from others that drove me to inquire about the architecture of the buildings around the Sepulchre and the marbling pattern on the Stone of Unction. I have wondered why so many artists, seeking to preserve Jesus’s modesty, have done so with cloth which is clearly transparent, and I have sought books on the iconography of gestures (without any useful success). Anything I found which I thought was relevant I have brought to the table for inspection.
I am firmly of the conviction that sooner or later someone will find a smoking gun, maybe a Byzantine image of an angel holding up a sheet with a pair of full length bodies on it, or a sketch by Durer with ‘must complete by Tuesday’ scribbled in the corner. It will be hard to find, and to most people not worth the bother of looking, which is why the passion insired by this, and others of Dan’s postings, is so important to Shroud research.
So I ask people reading these comments, perhaps Charles, myself, Davids Goulet and Mo, on one side, and perhaps OK, Max, Daveb, Thomas, Tristan, Nabber, Louis and others on the other, let us not simply bang our heads on our various walls in frustration and think that those who think differently from us are just being obstinate, but keep Googling! The truth is out there!
Summed up perfectly, Hugh. Once more dear friends, into the Google breach…
Charles, you wrote:
“But an art historian who is trained to use his eyes will look at the Shroud and see the predominant features, its size, the images and the bloodstains. There is no evidence of any of them on the Codex and the depiction of Christ’s body shows that the artist had no idea of their being any bloodstains at all at the moment of burial,let alone any that could be transferred to the Shroud.”
Tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttotttttttttttttttttttttttttallllllllllllllllllllllllllly WRONG!
Part One of my oncoming ‘iconostaganalysis’ of the two rectangles in the lower ink section forefront (in light of the upper section stark naked Christ laying on his burial winding sheet, late 8th-late 12th c. iconography and the TS), will demonstrate beyond the shadow of a rational doubt there is a ‘staganic’ (covered) most accurate evidence of the TS predominant features in the HP Ms (namely size, weave pattern and a couple of topologically correlated bloodstain patterns for which the Benedictine illustrator even had a startling eye for their forms. A Benedictine painstaking work indeed!
To Dan, Dave, Thomas et al stay tuned.
Might I suggest tooooooooooooooootaaaaaaaaaaaaaallyyyyyyyyyyyyy as an alternative spelling? It seems to capture the elongated vowels so much better, don’t you think?
Actually,
“Tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttotttttttttttttttttttttttttallllllllllllllllllllllllllly WRONG!” is more apt, in my opinion, than “tooooooooooooooootaaaaaaaaaaaaaallyyyyyyyyyyyyy”
to tell Charles how wrong he is (That is My view point).
Methinks, the man just cannot discriminate between ‘reality”, ‘truth’, ‘the real thing’ ‘illusion’ and ‘ignorance’ (= between a consonant and a vowel).
Correction:(namely size, weave pattern, BURN MARKS and a couple of topologically correlated bloodstain patterns…)
I want to adress some points:
daveb:
On the other hand, O.K. seems uncompromising in being prepared to concede that there may be significance in the elements present relating to the Jerusalem tomb, as propounded by Charles. He seems concerned that any such concession risks diluting his claim that the artist knew of and intended to represent elements of the Shroud.
No, it’s not true. If you read my article once again, you will notice that I have written: F –the four L shaped ‘poker holes’, similar to those that can be found on the Shroud –reference to it, or just another (very strange) decorative pattern (or to the holes in the Holy Sepulcher, or anything)? No matter. Let’s estimate chance for their random occurrence… So I took into account the possibility that those are derived from the Holy Sepulcher or any other source. I do not deny that there may be some references to the Holy Sepulcher in the Pray Manuscript. But when combined with other elements, there is virtually no doubt that the illustrations in the HPM were influenced by the Shroud.
Thus Charles’ instigations on the Chruch of Holy Sepulcher are simply irrelevant. They are just distraction (like Egypt and Bayeux). Charles knows that he can’t undermine my reasoning directly (had he been able, he would have done it), so he is running away from it on another topics.
Hugh: Three of your identities depend on a conviction that the Shroud and the Pray manuscript are related in the first place…
There is no conviction. Contrary, I assumed that Pray Manuscript is unrelated with the Shroud, and estimate what is a chance of obtaining six such similarities at random. And the result in practice exclude that possibility.
Read the whole article again.
As I said earlier it does not take much to undermine reasoning of ‘A cat has four legs, a dog has four legs, therefore a cat is a dog’ variety. I really felt, and still feel, that I don’t need to do any more. This is simply not a valid way of approaching the problem unless you can find a mathematician or statistician to support your strange way of using reason (so over to you on this). As Hugh has demonstrated, the links you make are all questionable so provide no basis from which to use mathematical logic.
But, do not worry OK., have no doubts that Dan Scavone will still be using the Pray Codex at St. Louis and if he is still with us it will be taken out again together with all the same documents in 2025. This is ritual not research and the text is sacred.
O.K.s argument reminded me of the attempt by the Oxford philosopher of religion, Richard Swinburne, to use Bayes’ Theorem to prove the existence of God and the Resurrection. It aroused a great deal of ridicule including the following from a website called Faith and Theology:
“A conversation yesterday reminded me of Richard Swinburne’s 2003 book, The Resurrection of God Incarnate. Using Bayesian probability and lashings of highfalutin mathematical jargon, Swinburne argues that “it [is] very probable indeed that God became incarnate in Jesus Christ who rose from the dead” (p. 214). His mathematical apologetics for the resurrection boils down to the following argument:
The probably of God’s existence is one in two (since God either exists or doesn’t exist).
The probability that God became incarnate is also one in two (since it either happened or it didn’t).
The evidence for God’s existence is an argument for the resurrection.
The chance of Christ’s resurrection not being reported by the gospels has a probability of one in 10.
Considering all these factors together, there is a one in 1,000 chance that the resurrection is not true.
It’s almost impossible to parody this argument (since in order to parody it, you would have to imagine something sillier – a daunting task!). But let me try:
The probably that the moon is made of cheese is one in two (since it is either made of cheese or it isn’t); the probability that this cheese is camembert is also one in two (since it’s either camembert or it isn’t); and so on..”
Oxford University Press was assailed for its philosophical naivity in publishing Swinburne’s book and someone wrote in to say that within five hundred yards of where Swinburne was writing in Oxford there were probably a hundred mathematicians qualified to tell him he was talking nonsense. I rather fear the same for our friend O.K.
I don’t believe anybody would look at a zigzag pattern on a rectangular slab and say: “I wonder if that could be depicting a cloth with a herringbone weave,” unless they were previously convinced that the depiction was, indeed, just that. Nor could anyone see the torn edge and and think: “I guess the artist wants us to realise that there are no feet on the Shroud” unless they already knew that the Shroud has no feet on the ventral image. I suppose the wriggly red lines could be interpreted as depictions of blood flows, but they are no more coincident with the Shroud blood flows than they are with hundreds of other pictures. What are the chances of finding a depiction of Jesus with blood on him? Rather better than 1/100.
“Read the whole article again.” No, let’s not, I understand it perfectly and I disagree with it. Let’s try to find something new.
Minder for a (relatively) new archaeological approach (I unofficially created it in 1994):
Late Antique and Medieval Christian ‘Icono-steganography’ is the advanced crypto-mnemonic Art of embedding (for prayer & meditation’s sake) the covert image of Christ’s body image and blood on his burial winding sheet in an overtly conventional (or even non conventional) biblical, New Testament and/or hagiographic scene or iconographic ‘cover’ for the initiated eye to discreetly re-discover at will while the outsiders are not even aware of its very presence. This is an unrecognizable advanced form of cryptography for the non initiated. Archaeologists, Historians and Art Historians have no efficient detection methods or tools to tackle such an encryption form properly.
Correction: (…) non conventional) biblical, New Testament and/or hagiographic scene or iconographic ‘cover’ for the initiated eye to discreetly re-discover THE MOST SACRED IMAGE at will (…)
Additional correction (sorry):
Minder of a (relatively) new archaeological approach (I unofficially created in 1994):
At its simplest, Late Antique and Medieval ‘Iconosteganography’ is the art of literally camouflaging (i.e. hiding in plain view via a subtly equivocal interplay of iconic additions, interpolations and/or substitutions) visual (with or without textual) information within the structure of an apparently rather conventional and innocuous iconographic ‘cover’ (panel painting, sculpture, manuscript illumination, graffiti) so that outsiders are not aware of its very presence. Or to put it in other words and paraphrase Carvin, “it is simply a case of disguising a covert image within an overt one for the purposes of concealment”. Whereas Late Antique and Medieval Christian ‘Iconosteganography’ is the advanced crypto-mnemonic Art of embedding (for prayer & meditation’s sake) the covert image of Christ’s body image and blood on his burial winding sheet in an overtly conventional (or even non conventional) biblical, New Testament and/or hagiographic scenic ‘cover’ for the initiated eye to discreetly re-discover the sacred image at will.
In both cases, this is an unrecognizable advanced form of cryptography for the non-initiated. Archaeologists, Historians and Art Historians have no efficient detection methods or tools to tackle such an encryption form properly.
How’s the crucial iconographic evidence coming along, Max?
I quite see your point, Max. The Shroud is there but we can’t see it if we are archaeologists, historians or art historians. If we can ever get to what your denouement about all this (it has been a long time coming but please try and write in clear English so we historians ,et. alia, can understand what you are talking about) perhaps you will tell us who hid the Shroud in the Pray Codex and why they needed to do so.
Thank goodness for the de Charnys and the Savoys who had no such inhibitions and hung it out for all to see.
To Hugh and Charles,
it’s pretty busy around at the moment (professionally speaking I mean). Do hope I could spare another two hours’ time this week-end to finish Part One (there will be three parts in all with the annexe). I think I’ll have no time to British English language edit my Flash Illustrative Reply as usual.
The Constantinople-Turin Sindon is INDEED the ‘crux iconosteganographica’ to correctly interpret the HP Ms lower ink section.
Thomas:
“I don’t know” is not compelling… but it is a usual scientific answer.
O.K.
There is a big difference between the shroud of Turin and the other representations of the shroud. The other pictures are representations of the Holly Shroud in diverse contexts (entombment, lamentationes etc.); the shroud of Turin IS (really or supposedly) the shroud.
If we have to compare two pictures, we should compare homogeneous pictures. This is a problem because we know scarcely anything about other shrouds. We compare in fact a shroud with some pictures with a different iconic concept. We are comparing the mark or impression of the Jesus’ body in a shroud with an entombment scene.
This implies an important difference when we analyzed the idea and representation of naked Christ in the tomb and also poses a theological and pictorial problem to a painter who wants to paint the image of the body on a shroud of Christ. The Gospels say that Jesus body was wrapped in a clean shroud (Mathew, 27, 59). There are a lot of medieval representations of Christ in the entombment or the resurrection (most common), where the nudity is veiled by a shroud. Obviously, this solution to the problem was not possible with the Shroud. We don’t know what the solution of this problem in other shrouds was, because only a shroud (true or false) has come to us. We can not compare in any way. We only can compare the codex Pray illustration with others with the same motif and to check out that the codex Pray is not the unique case in which the artist has dared to paint Jesus naked. See my gallery. The codex Pray is odd but not exceptional. This is all we can conclude on this issue.
Hugh;
I don’t believe anybody would look at a zigzag pattern on a rectangular slab and say: “I wonder if that could be depicting a cloth with a herringbone weave,” unless they were previously convinced that the depiction was, indeed, just that
I wish to congratulate your ignorance, Hugh. “I wonder if…” Do you understand the difference between hypotheses, and facts? Between necessities and possibilities?
Whether the artist depicted by zigzag pattern, the herringbone, or anything else, is a hypothesis. This hypothesis is then checked with other facts. If they fit into it, and all other hypothesis can be rejected, it becames a scientific fact -at least unless someone in the future shows it incorrect. Short saying, of course.
“Read the whole article again.” No, let’s not, I understand it perfectly and I disagree with it. Let’s try to find something new.
No, you have shown that you don’t understand it. That you don’t understand the basic concepts. So how can we discuss then?
There is a difference between science and scepticism. Really.
Last but not least.
An illustrator who is intending to copy some important image doesn’t choose marginal details, because he prevents the correct identification of the subject by doing that. This is a universal rule of History of Art. There is an absolutely definitive feature that identifies the Shroud of Turin over all the others. The painter can paint some things that don’t exist in the Shroud. See the cloth on the pelvis in the paintings of Clovio o Della Rovere; or the absence of details in the fibula found in the Seine river ( http://sombraenelsudario.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/suairemedaille.jpg?w=450&h=362 ). There is one feature that mainly identifies the image as a copy of the shroud of Turin in spite of all these “infidelities” to the original image: the shape of shroud; the fact that it is folded over the head. There are some images of naked Christ, there are many representations of crossed hands without thumbs, there are pictures of Christ with big moustaches and with many blood. But there is not a single shroud with the shape of the shroud of Turin. Neither the codex Pray.
Draw your own conclusions.
Charles:
As I said earlier it does not take much to undermine reasoning of ‘A cat has four legs, a dog has four legs, therefore a cat is a dog’ variety.
I have a riddle for you, what is a creature that has four legs, barks, and wags its tail? Are those clues enough for you?
there were probably a hundred mathematicians qualified to tell him he was talking nonsense. I rather fear the same for our friend O.K.
So give one, instead of talking rubbish. Because so far, in mathematics you have shown nothing, our dear ‘historian’.
O.K.s argument reminded me of the attempt…
You seem to use many words just to show you have nothing meaningful to say.
We do have the Shroud of Cadouin, nicely presented on the Qantara website, brought back from the First Crusade. As Cadouin was on one of the routes to Santiago the abbey got very wealthy on the proceeds of pilgrims visiting it. So if the illustrator was copying a specific shroud this might have been the one.
Only in the twentieth century was it shown to be contemporary with the crusade – such conclusive denouements do sometimes happen to relics once believed to be genuine.
David Mo:
O.K.
There is a big difference between the shroud of Turin and the other representations of the shroud.
[…]
But there is not a single shroud with the shape of the shroud of Turin. Neither the codex Pray.
Draw your own conclusions.
Empty words. Everything has been mentioned long ago, and does not undermine my reasoning in any way.
I adress one error:
We don’t know what the solution of this problem in other shrouds was, because only a shroud (true or false) has come to us.
That’s not true, there has been more alleged burial clothes of Jesus, real or not. See for example:
http://en.heiligtumsfahrt2014.de/wissenswertes/heiligt–mer/
Of course some reliques of non painted shrouds exist. But we are speaking about an image on the srhoud.
Reminder for Charles: In the 12th . CE, the Byzantine Empire most sacred among state relics were to be approached only by the elite and happy few privileged visitors.
Well if the Shroud was there, someone like this artist would not have been allowed in! Probably he did not copy any specific shroud but if he did more likely to be one on public display such as Cadouin.
Fine, Charles. I will try to treat you serious. Where do you find naked Christ or l “poker holes” in the Shroud of Cadouin? ( http://www.qantara-med.org/qantara4/public/show_document.php?do_id=1113&lang=en#_ftnref2 )
The shroud of Cadouin is a shroud and is not the naked Christ.
I have given you a more plausible explanation for the circular holes on the tomb lid which represent the circular holes drilled by Constantine VII in his marble lid of the tenth century in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. The poker holes in case you had not noticed are irregular in shape and vary in size unlike the circular holes on the coffin lid.
“Sarcophagus” we’re told means ‘flesh eater’ Charles, and porous acid-neutralising rock (e.g.limestone) construction apparently aided the process. Why the need to accelerate natural decomposition? Rock tombs in short supply? Thus the need to remove remains to ossuaries a year or two later?
There’s a whole new area of crypto-necro-archaeology waiting to be opened up here methinks. Might the little holes have been needed to let oxygen in, and putrefaction gases escape? 100lbs of myrrh and aloes? Keep the flies and rodents out? Let the microbes do their job…
Personally speaking, I’d prefer to let my earthly remains nourish a new sapling at my favourite spot on the planet – Eilenroc at the tip of the Cap d’Antibes,
Constantine VII decided to cover the open rock tomb with a marble lid and then to allow pilgrims to view down into what he had covered he drilled circular holes. It was nothing t o do with letting gases out but allowing people to look in to the original rock tomb. This is what we seem to see on the Pray Codex.
Sure enough Charles. But there were plenty of other sarcophagi in the Greek/Roman era that, in view of population pressure and land shortage, needed to be cleared of their contents and removed to ossuaries in short order, making way for still more who had shuffled off their mortal coil. Death becomes a growth industry when population expands. So ventilation holes may well have been a standard feature – to speed things along.
Colin. Yes, it is possible but in this case we have documentary evidence that Constantine put circular holes in to allow pilgrims to look through his marble lid into the original rock tomb. As said 100 posts ago, they were copied by sculptors who were showing the same scene in the Pray Codex. Examples were given long ago.
The shroud of Cadouin is a shroud and is not the naked Christ.
I have given you a more plausible explanation for the circular holes on the tomb lid which represent the circular holes drilled by Constantine VII in his marble lid of the tenth century in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. The poker holes in case you had not noticed are irregular in shape and vary in size unlike the circular holes on the coffin lid.
You have not answered. I remind your words:
Probably he did not copy any specific shroud but if he did more likely to be one on public display such as Cadouin.
What indicates you that the aritst in the HPM portrayed Shorud of Cadouin? Justify your opinion.
I stick to what I have just written ,that there is no reason why he should have used any particular shroud as a model. Seeing that he placed the discarded sudarium in the lower register he was probably taking the gospel of John as a source.
IF, repeat IF, he was taking his model from an actual relic of a shroud then, of course, he would have several to choose from but the shroud of Cadouin was probably the best known. There is nothing in the Codex to suggest he did which is why I prefer my first solution, that he was using the gospel source.
Usually if a relic is shown its is shown clearly as one can see with the many representations of the Image of Edessa with its open eyes.
What are alternative explanations for the red lines? I can think of a few but they seem silly to me:
The artist was testing his paint brush.
They represent sweeps of blood from the angel’s feet.
They are a decorative feature.
IF, repeat IF, he was taking his model from an actual relic of a shroud then, of course, he would have several to choose from but the shroud of Cadouin was probably the best known.
So Charles, you have acknowledged the possibility that there is the Shroud of Cadouin portrayed in the HPM. Fine. Suppose this may be true. So why there are L-shaped circles on the Shroud of Cadouin portrayed in the HPM? Where had the artist derived from two red smudges on it? Why there is a zigzag pattern on it? What inspired the artist, supposedly copying Shroud of Cadouin, to portray Christ naked , without thumbs, and his legs cropped?
You claim that the Shroud of Cadouin may be portrayed in the HPM, so please answer.
As I have just said ,O.K there is nothing in the Codex to show that he did use the Cadouin Shroud- it is simply that there were others on display in the west and he could have seen one. As I said, he is more likely never to have used a specific model at all but followed the gospels as he did with the Three Mary’s.
Max has confirmed the point I made 150 posts ago that getting access t o the imperial chapel in Constantinople would only have been for the elite. The western shrines accepted all pilgrims, did the Church of the holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem even when it was back under Muslim control.
I think the level of resistance displayed here by skeptics shows how significant the HPM is. After 200 plus comments no one has been able to even come close give a reasonable explanation for all the shroud like signs displayed on it. Despite their failure none of them have been able to concede the obvious. This has been a spectacle of their stubbornness and bias against the shroud.
You and others here are demanding that the sceptic prove a negative. “Prove that it’s NOT the Shroud that is depicted in a particular line drawing” (pre-selected needless to say).
“Prove that the moon is NOT made of green cheese.”
One is justified in being stubborn when faced with this kind of bullying. One cannot be reasonably expected to prove a negative.
I had come to a similar conclusion as Mike M some time ago way back, but had chosen to refrain from saying so explicitly.
It is possible to prove a negative. Mankind has actually landed on the moon, despite what a few weirdos might claim. Of all samples brought back to date, of which there have been several, not a single one has shown to be of any kind of green cheese! This might not satisfy some of the extreme pseudo-skeptics or scientific poseurs to be occasionally found on a certain Shroudstory.com site, but it’s called “weight of evidence”, Juries use this particular technique all the time! And it’s sufficient for them to secure a conviction, and is generally accepted by the public at large as such.
Some convictions might arise from very tenuous evidence indeed, or merely from one’s predispositions or preferences. For example one might prefer to imagine that there was no AB blood group in Europe before 1000 AD, or else prefer the evidence of one’s spouse on the question of a cross-stitch she has never seen, in preference to a qualified textile expert with hands on experience of the object in question, One might even hold that the same object is of Frankish provenance on no grounds of evidence at all.
But if there are six points of independent congruence, one ought then to be satisfied that there are adequate grounds for one’s convictions, no matter how preposterous they might appear to the skeptic.
Notwithstanding the somewhat passé turn of phrase (re the moon and green cheese) there’s a vast difference between someone claiming that two things are related on the basis of alleged “congruences”, fanciful or otherwise, and demanding that others prove that each and every one of the various propositions is incorrect. I repeat: no one should be expected to prove a negative, far less a cobbled-together list of them. Five or six weak “congruences” are not a substitute for a single compelling one,
Of course you can prove a negative!
1) You can “prove” (strong sense) that something is a self contradiction, therefore does not exist: a married bachelor.
2) You can “prove” (weak sense) that something does not exist with an inductive argument.
See, for example, Steven D. Hales, in Think, 2005: “So why is it that people insist that you can’t prove a negative?
I think it is the result of two things. (1) an acknowledgement
that induction is not bulletproof, airtight, and infallible, and (2)
a desperate desire to keep believing whatever one believes,
even if all the evidence is against it.”
Or, in a nutshell, from a William Craig’s debate: “a popular line you hear on a popular level all the time, but that sophisticated atheists don’t take”.
“Empty words. Everything has been mentioned long ago, and does not undermine my reasoning in any way.”
O.K.:
This is not an answer. This is an escape!
The evident conclusion is:
If the shape of the shroud of Turin is its most distinctive feature, and no artist has ever represented it till the fourteenth Century (fibula) or sixteenth Century (Clovio and Della Rovere), we must conclude that the shroud of Turin was not known till the fourteenth Century. This is elementary logic.
For example:
See this picture: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ana_sudani/460090622/in/photostream/ . It is a panel of the altar of the cathedral of Lübeck of the beginning of the Fifteenth Century. There are more coincidences with the shroud of Turin here than in the codex Pray: the beard is divided in two, we can see the wounds of the Passion and the legs are bended. With your logic of more similarities, more copy, we ought to conclude that the artist was copying the shroud of Turin. But it is impossible because the artist has painted an absolutely different shroud both in shape and consistency and it is impossible that any image could have been impressed on this shroud. The similarities with the shroud of Turin are a coincidence or a consequence of the stylistic rules.
This refutes your argument.
The wounds on tHe body was the crucial point because no one could have seen the Shroud without seeing the bloodstains and so they would have had to put the wounds on to the body. This is one of the strongest arguments against the Pray Codex showing the Shroud. In fact ,if you look at the iconography of these scenes as a whole you don’t find Christ being shown with wounds, let alone bleeding ones , until a century later.
If the Shroud is authentic it had not made any impact on iconography of the body of Christ by this period.
Charles the final image in the HPM shows Christ’s hand wounds and side wounds.
“all the shroud like signs displayed on it. ”
“six points of independent congruence.”
“stubborn” “bias” “intransigent” “talking rubbish” “ignorance”
Both the Shroud and the Pray manuscript show a naked man, with his crossed over his groin, and four fingers on each hand. There are no other shroud-like signs, and no other points of independent congruence. No facial resemblance at all, no wounds, no double image or indication thereof.
The Pray manuscript is cut off at the edges, has a pattern of six concentric zigzag semicircles, has two unexplained groups of circles, and a couple of parallel wavy red lnes near the hem of a crumpled, transparent cloth. Only one of these (one of the groups of circles) is “shroud-like,” and none of them are “points of independent congruence.”
Again I have a problem, not with those who disagree with the view above, but with those who appear not even to understand it. Scan the last 300 comments on this topic – over two posts. How many times have the authenticists been derided as stubborn, biased, ignorant rubbish-talkers? And how many times have the sceptics?
What does scepticism mean anyway? Denial? Refusal? Obstinacy? No, it doesn’t. It means Doubt, Questioning, Inquiring. Scepticism is good.
What have we Inquirers brought to this discussion? In no particular order: the beard, the position of the arms in burial archaeology, dozens of images of the Three Marys and Lamentations, the Hookham bible, the Stone of Unction, Egyptian pyramid design, the stairs of St Helen’s, the Shroud of Cadouin.
What have the true believers brought? Is there any other example of zigzags being used to represent herringbone? Is there any other example of a rectangular slab representing cloth? Is there any other example of parallel wavy lines representing blood?
Who fails to understand whom here? Who is obstinate, ignorant and intransigent?
I understand my opponents. I do not agree with them. Can any of them say the same of me?
You have put a good epitaph for the codex Pray, Hugh. I agree with almost all. But I don’t consider an sceptical myself on this issue. I find no reason to match the codex Pray to the shroud of Turin. This is not scepticism.
You have put a good epitaph for the codex Pray, Hugh. I agree with almost all. But I don’t consider an sceptical myself on this issue. I find no reason to match the codex Pray to the shroud of Turin. This is not scepticism.
Beutiful. One guy who is does not understand elementary logic, praising another one, who does not understand anything here. Simply beautiful.
Tristan: I said no one can be reasonably expected to prove a negative, like this or that feature is NOT inspired by prior knowledge of the TS. I did not say that no negatives can ever be proved, since that’s clearly not the case. You could easily disprove someone’s contention that none of the contributors on this thread are less than 150 years of age, but might find it a lot harder to disprove that none are less than 25.
It’s to do of course with the burden of proof (as distinct from disproof). The burden of proof re the HPM rests with those who claim it incorporates features that required prior knowledge of the TS. We have seen claims for “congruence”, but one must surely agree that they fall short of proof. Do you seriously imagine they would stand up in a court of law? Attempts to switch the burden of proof, requiring sceptics to prove negatives, should be seen for what they are – an admission of defeat.
Colin, “no one can be reasonably expected to prove a negative”: thus, according to you, no one can be reasonably expected to prove that Napoleon Bonaparte was not born in the 17th century? Hmmm….
“one must surely agree that the [claims for congruence] fall short of proof” : quite the contrary. According to my knowledge of the fields (historiography, medieval period, etc.) i think the evidence compelling : there is a link between the TS and the HPM. And indeed many experts, believers and unbelievers, agree with me: I mentioned medievist Emmanuel Poulle ( https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Poulle ), others mentioned de Wesselow, etc.
Some two years ago on this site, there was considerable discussion on the Epitaphios Stavronikita. Several features necessarily connect it to the Shroud, one in particular was an undeniable replication of the herring-bone twill. Other features included a bloodied, scourged, prostrate Christ with crossed hands over the groin. Despite the many similarities, thumbs are nevertheless clearly visible. However, there was clearly disagreement about the date of provenance, some asserting it as late 15th – 16th centuries, while others insisted that it was as early as 12th century, a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. I have attempted to pursue this further via the web, but the only references to this particular epitaphios all relate back to Dan’s web-site only. There appear to be no other web references to it. I can’t even find it on any of the Mt Athos Stavronikita monastery web-sites.
There were several other comments relating to herring-bone twill representations, including several from Max PH referring to the St Mark’s 7th century carving. Someone had found a reference to the Stavronikita in a university library, but the matter of dating it still remains unresolved.
Even though the TS was known in the west by the 14th century, would monks or artisans at Mt Athos be likely to use this knowledge as a model for an epitaphios for use in Greek Orthodox liturgies at this time? I think not! A rational explanation for whatever model was used for it, demands that some remembered features of the Shroud cloth when it was under Greek custody influenced its design.
Meantime, someone may like to pursue the date of provenance of the epitaphios stavronikita with better success and more conclusivity than I’ve been able to manage.
David Mo:
If the shape of the shroud of Turin is its most distinctive feature, and no artist has ever represented it till the fourteenth Century (fibula) or sixteenth Century (Clovio and Della Rovere), we must conclude that the shroud of Turin was not known till the fourteenth Century. This is elementary logic.
No. This is logical fault! The most distinctive feature does not mean neccessary to be portrayed.
See this picture:
It is a panel of the altar of the cathedral of Lübeck of the beginning of the Fifteenth Century. There are more coincidences with the shroud of Turin here than in the codex Pray: the beard is divided in two, we can see the wounds of the Passion and the legs are bended. With your logic of more similarities, more copy, we ought to conclude that the artist was copying the shroud of Turin. But it is impossible because the artist has painted an absolutely different shroud both in shape and consistency and it is impossible that any image could have been impressed on this shroud.
I have expected that you or someene would bring this faulty argument here.
You are mixing two different issues here. The two parameters are: the number of congruences and frequency of them. There is a large number of coincidences in the altar of the cathedral of Lübeck, ideed, and it is possible or even likely, that it was directly or rather indirectly influenced by the Shroud of Turin (the fact that portrayed Shroud is different does not change that). However the key is frequency here. Forked beard is quite common in Byzantine arts, probably copied from the Shroud, but in one particular example it does not point necessarily to the direct derivation from the Shroud of Turin. The 4 L-shape circles are, on the other hand, quite uncommon, and it is unlikely that they were derived from anything else but the Shroud of Turin (especially in combination with othere congruences).
In short, large frequency of congruences in a population indicates a model. Small frequency of congruences found in one particular example, shows that it is unlikely to be derived from anything else but this model.
David Mo, you failed an exam in logic.
Time for Hugh:
Both the Shroud and the Pray manuscript show a naked man, with his crossed over his groin, and four fingers on each hand. There are no other shroud-like signs, and no other points of independent congruence. No facial resemblance at all, no wounds, no double image or indication thereof.
Obsessive scepticism turns people blind…
What does scepticism mean anyway? Denial? Refusal? Obstinacy? No, it doesn’t. It means Doubt, Questioning, Inquiring. Scepticism is good.
It means falling into absurd sometimes. Scepticism is not science.
What have we Inquirers brought to this discussion? In no particular order: the beard, the position of the arms in burial archaeology, dozens of images of the Three Marys and Lamentations, the Hookham bible, the Stone of Unction, Egyptian pyramid design, the stairs of St Helen’s, the Shroud of Cadouin.
Irrrelevant things add nothing to discussion. They show just how desperate are the sceptics.
What have the true believers brought? Is there any other example of zigzags being used to represent herringbone? Is there any other example of a rectangular slab representing cloth? Is there any other example of parallel wavy lines representing blood?
Who fails to understand whom here? Who is obstinate, ignorant and intransigent?
I understand my opponents. I do not agree with them. Can any of them say the same of me?
You failed to understand everything. Your words show it clearly.
Charles next:
As I have just said ,O.K there is nothing in the Codex to show that he did use the Cadouin Shroud- it is simply that there were others on display in the west and he could have seen one
You wrote: Probably he did not copy any specific shroud but if he did more likely to be one on public display such as Cadouin. So you claim that the Shroud of Cadouin may be portrayed in the HPM. Then it cannot be a slab from the Holy Speulcher. Then I ask what is origin of L-shape circles then? Of naked Christ, with no thumbs? Zigzag pattern and so on? Please answer that.
Colin: Tristan: I said no one can be reasonably expected to prove a negative, like this or that feature is NOT inspired by prior knowledge of the TS.
Colin, argue with David Mo who claims exactly the opposite.
My response for David Mo, after corrctions:
David Mo:
If the shape of the shroud of Turin is its most distinctive feature, and no artist has ever represented it till the fourteenth Century (fibula) or sixteenth Century (Clovio and Della Rovere), we must conclude that the shroud of Turin was not known till the fourteenth Century. This is elementary logic.
No. This is logical fault! The most distinctive feature does not mean neccessary to be portrayed.
See this picture: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ana_sudani/460090622/in/photostream/ . It is a panel of the altar of the cathedral of Lübeck of the beginning of the Fifteenth Century. There are more coincidences with the shroud of Turin here than in the codex Pray: the beard is divided in two, we can see the wounds of the Passion and the legs are bended. With your logic of more similarities, more copy, we ought to conclude that the artist was copying the shroud of Turin. But it is impossible because the artist has painted an absolutely different shroud both in shape and consistency and it is impossible that any image could have been impressed on this shroud.
I have expected that you or someone would bring this faulty argument here.
You are mixing two different issues here. The two parameters are: the number of congruences and frequency of them. There is a large number of coincidences in the altar of the cathedral of Lübeck, ideed, and it is possible or even likely, that it was directly or rather indirectly influenced by the Shroud of Turin (the fact that portrayed Shroud is different does not change that). However the key is frequency here. Forked beard is quite common in Byzantine arts, probably copied from the Shroud, but in one particular example it does not point necessarily to the direct derivation from the Shroud of Turin. The 4 L-shape circles are, on the other hand, quite uncommon, and it is unlikely that they were derived from anything else but the Shroud of Turin (especially in combination with othere congruences).
In short, large frequency of congruences in a population indicates a model. Small frequency of congruences found in one particular example, shows that it is unlikely to be derived from anything else but this model.
David Mo, you failed an exam in logic. How to discuss with such guy, who is able only to poison the well?
Yup, that’s us, ignorant, irrelevant, uncomprehending, illogical, obsessive, absurd, desperate and poisonous. All in a few column-inches. But we’re right, aren’t we? The six independent, non-trivial and undisputed points of congruence are crumbling away before your eyes. Shore them up, quick! Show us where else concentric semicircles represent herringbone, or a rectangular slab represents cloth, or a fringed hem represents blood? Show that David Mo is wrong, and that his collection of Lamentations (30% naked, 30% four-fingered) is unrepresentative of the whole. Show us where else a representation of the man in the shroud appears young and beardless.
Or carry on telling us we’re ignorant, irrelevant, uncomprehending, illogical, obsessive, absurd, desperate and poisonous. That’s so much more likely to persuade us you’re right…
(You can add ‘sarcastic’ to the list now; I can take it!)
No, Hugh, by irritating me with nonsensical, faulty comments you (I mean all sceptics) won’t show that I am wrong. I have shown that David Mo is wrong and (deliberately or simply foolish) mixes several different issues. The point that you have to resort to such regrettable methods shows clearly; the sceptics actually have no serious arguments against the Codex Pray. Despite 280 comments (I don’t know what is the record for one thread on this blog), none of them was able to give any reasonable, and probabilistically significant (that means the chances for its occurence are not <<1) explanation for all features A-F I listed. Instead I have read several gibberish about Shroud not being shroudy enough, zigzags not zigzaging not enough, red smudges not smudgy, a bench not being a bench etc. Plus ancient Egypt and Shroud of Cadouin. Plus mixing necessities with possibilities, probability for one hypothesis with probability of opposite hypothesis etc. Is that a serious discussion?
Or just a massive attack against me?
I guess we’ll just have to differ. No hard feelings.
I guess we’ll just have to differ. No hard feelings.
No. Hugh. There is no draw here.
Time for us all to move on I think….far too much good football to enjoy. Loving Columbia
O.K. The massive attack is not against you, nor is it a MASSIVE attack against anyone. It is just that many of us cannot see any of the distinctive features of the Turin Shroud in the Pray Codex and that is enough to doubt that it was ever portrayed in it. It is as simple as that. No need to accuse any of us of moral turpitude!
It is just that many of us cannot see any of the distinctive features of the Turin Shroud in the Pray Codex and that is enough to doubt that it was ever portrayed in it. It is as simple as that.
This is no justification of anything.
Next topic, not unrelated? Epitaphioi? Anyone? See separate posting!
O.K.
Fault of logic? We are sure that a number of copies of the shroud of Turin are genuine. All them without exceptionpresent the characteristic shape of the Turin Shroud. Ergo this is a relevant and distinctive feature. We have also an alleged influence of the Turin Shroud on a number of images of Christ. But you intend to base this influence on some features common to medieval art. You have no reason to suppose that the altar of Lübeck is “likely” influenced by the shroud of Turin. Not a single one. Prove it!
It is you that affirm (inconsequently) that the features that matched the altar and the Shroud were common in medieval art. This claim is mine also. So you need a characteristic feature that identifies the copy of the Shroud. I have found a very reliable one: the shape of the shroud of Turin. You can not deny that this shape is characteristic of the Shroud. But you propose another: the L shape of the supposed holes. But this one is very ambiguous because…
– There is not a L shape in the “holes” of the codex Pray. There are a L form and a P form. You can not find this combination in the Shroud.
– It is not evident that the small circles are holes. The same form is used in the codex Pray to the ornaments of the dresses.
-The alleged shroud in the codex Pray is not a shroud; it is the sepulchre. There are several reasons that show this.
So you prefer an inconsistent argument instead of a solid one. This is your logic.
By the way, a “large frequency of congruences in a population indicates a model” is false if you are thinking in an individual model.
A large frequency of congruences in History of Art indicates a style or an iconographic rule. If you want to establish an influence from an artist to other you ought to establish a characteristic feature and a chronology. It is at this hurdle that you fall.
My last post on this matter.
I believe skeptics are looking at the Shroud and the HPM with 21st century lenses. They need to change to 12th century lenses.
Firstly, picture what the shroud might have been like in the 1100s, if indeed it did exist then. It didn’t have the burn marks. It quite possibly had the poker holes. It quite possibly had the blood.
I’ve seen the shroud with my naked eyes. It is far less defined than what we see in photographs. In fact I would call the image somewhat ephemeral, appearing more or less defined depending on the distance from the object.
Keep all these things in mind when you form your 12th century image of the Shroud:
faint ephemeral image, conspicuous poker holes, no burn marks, conspicuous blood marks. Does the HPM image then start to make more sense?
An indisputable FACT is that the “3 Marys” image on the HPM contains PLENTY of symbolism. This is demonstrated at the very least by features such as the head next to Mary’s right arm, and the floating character. This symbolic approach differs from the literal artistry of other images in the HPM. It’s as if the artist is saying: “The resurrection and its representation must be mysterious”. In this light, I see no problem in seeing a cryptic allusion to the shroud in the object we’ve all been debating: faint image represented by central crosses, framed on one side by two wavey red lines representing the blood, and the “L shaped” poker holes on the other side.
If the artist was a senior cleric who visited Constantinople, then it’s no leap of faith to think that he might have seen the Shroud, and might then have been deeply impressed by it. It’s not then a big leap to think he might have alluded to it in his picture.
Anyhow, that’s me on the HPM.
O.K.:
There is a brand in the “forehead” in the Jesus of the entumbamiento who is own of the image of the Shroud of Turin.
(en español)
Hay una marca en la “frente” en el Jesús del entumbamiento que es propia de la imagen de la Sábana de Turín.
Carlos
I consider David Mo’s own claim to logic quite faulty.
The drawings of the Pray Codex are a style of their own, almost in a cartoon style, simple ink drawings with only two uniform primary colours. In no sense are they in the same category as their contemporary high European art, with all their concomitant artistic styles, and reliance on precedents. The Pray drawings occur in their context of the very first attempt at producing a written text in the Hungarian language. It may be regarded as a form of primal Hungarian art. Nor do I see that O.K. is basing his arguments on artistic features of representations of the Shroud in medieval art. That does not seem to be his assertion, but rather that he claims to see that there are direct congruences between the proto-Shroud itself and features appearing in the drawings.
David Mo claims to find a very reliable characteristic feature in the shape of the Shroud. Very well then! Casual inspection of the oblique rectangle in the drawing will show that it has a length to width ratio of very close to 4:1, the same proportions as the Shroud cloth, the very same object that has a zigzag pattern on it, as has the Shroud, and the very same object that has an ‘L’ arrangement of holes. A further characteristic of the Shroud is that it is of fabric, so it need not be represented as having straight sides, but can be curved, without these being symmetrical. A straight edge placed against this rectangle will show the edges are indeed curved, and without the curves being symmetrical about the centre-line.
A slightly earlier work, more in the classic style, is the Lamentation scene on the Klosterneuberg pulpit near Vienna which is said to predate 1181. Here the partially draped Christ, with crossed arms across the groin, is being laid to rest in what is clearly a patterned casket. In the background, is also an oblique rectangle, patterned in the same way as the casket, having straight sides, and is clearly intended to be the lid of the casket, which it would seem to be designed to fit very well. This is quite a different object.
Another aspect that would seem to disqualify the Pray rectangle from being a casket lid, is the absence of a casket. There is no casket shown for this to be a lid to! What is exactly the point in portraying a lid without a casket to own it? The base rectangle conveys no impression of being intended to represent a casket, so much as a kind of slab or stone, perhaps even something like the limestone shelves seen in any of the Jerusalem tombs, by wandering crusaders.
I am bemused by David Mo’s assertion that there is not a ‘L’ shape in the Codex Pray, and I do not catch whatever subtlety he is attempting. There is clearly an arrangement of circles arranged as an ‘L’ shape in the oblique rectangle, which look very much to me as an attempt to represent a similar arrangement of holes found on the Shroud unrelated to the 1532 fire. It is true that the artist for whatever reason has chosen to include arrangements of tiny circles in other locations: as dress decorations, and on the underlying slab, perhaps representing oculi, and on the waist of the angel. They might for all we can guess suggest that we ought to be looking for a more subtle arrangement of circles, such as those arranged in an ‘L’ shape!
DM: “The alleged shroud in the codex Pray is not a shroud; it is the sepulchre. There are several reasons that show this.” I venture to suggest that there are several many more reasons to assert that the oblique rectangle is intended to represent the Shroud than there are to say that it is a sepulchre!
However, all the great men have spoken and have expressed their skepticism all to their own satisfaction no doubt. I for one consider that they have all simultaneously come to an incorrect conclusion. So much for the value of consensus debate!
The reason why there is no casket is because this is a representation of what was actually in Jerusalem, a marble lid placed over the rock by Constantine VII. In fact the absence of a casket is additional evidence that the artist was copying directly from The Church of the Holy Sepulchre including the circular holes that we know Constantine drilled into that same lid in order to allow pilgrims to look through to the original rock.
In fact the absence of a casket is additional evidence that the artist was copying directly from The Church of the Holy Sepulchre including the circular holes that we know Constantine drilled into that same lid in order to allow pilgrims to look through to the original rock.
Charles.
What was the configuration of those holes?
O.K. Please tell me what position the Shroud was in so that the observer could see a set of poker holes in the same L position as on the marble lid. Please also tell me which of the four sets of poker holes you think he was copying. Presumably as he would. Have had free scope to place the holes where he wanted them he would not have needed to turn the L round. Thanks.
“The base rectangle conveys no impression of being intended to represent a casket, so much as a kind of slab or stone, perhaps even something like the limestone shelves seen in any of the Jerusalem tombs, by wandering crusaders.”
It could possibly represent the red marble stone of unction, that was brought to Constantinople in 1180. Presumably it was one of the key relics that a senior relic from Hungary might have had the privilege of viewing, along with the shroud.
There are also allusions in the final HPM image to the relics of the True Cross, and nails.
David Mo:
Fault of logic? We are sure that a number of copies of the shroud of Turin are genuine. All them without exceptionpresent the characteristic shape of the Turin Shroud.
But the HPM is not a copy of the Shroud and its image -but simply a psalter with several references to the Shroud! That’s the main difference you seem not to understand.
We have also an alleged influence of the Turin Shroud on a number of images of Christ. But you intend to base this influence on some features common to medieval art.
The problem is why they are common in medieval art. This matters the Vignon markings issue, for example (which base on frequent congruences with the Shroud). But for the case of HPM, it doesn’t matter -the establishment of direct relation between HPM and the Shroud is based on peculiar (and thus infrequent) congruences with the latter.
You mix the two different problems.
It is you that affirm (inconsequently) that the features that matched the altar and the Shroud were common in medieval art. This claim is mine also.
See above.
– There is not a L shape in the “holes” of the codex Pray. There are a L form and a P form. You can not find this combination in the Shroud.
Of course, I can find. But those P holes on the bottom red-crossed rectangle do not interest me at the moment. Just L holes.
– It is not evident that the small circles are holes. The same form is used in the codex Pray to the ornaments of the dresses.
It is enough to me that they mayrepresent holes on the Shroud.
-The alleged shroud in the codex Pray is not a shroud; it is the sepulchre. There are several reasons that show this.
There is one reason which disproves the allegation of zigzag patterned rectangle being sepulchre. See http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
There is clearly visible a bench on which angel is sitting. Thus the rectangle cannot be a tomb lid. Whenever I show this, every sceptic plays fool and tries to ignore it under any pretext.
A large frequency of congruences in History of Art indicates a style or an iconographic rule.
A large frequency of congruences… with what, David Mo? I mean of course a certain object, that can be considered a model.
Your way of faulty thinking is evident, David Mo.
I just sent a drawing as bad as the one that is being discussed that consists of in separate frames. 1 frame a body of a bearded man lying naked with hands crossed no thumbs showing. 2 frame a crossed hatched image. 3 frame circles in the same L shaped pattern. 4 frame a empty tomb. all on a larger picture being pulled on a trailer by 1965 Mustang car. Would you assume I saw the original Shroud or heard about it.
Would you assume I saw the original Shroud or heard about it.
Yes -the fact that you came to this site proves that.
I think so too. Would Sherlock Holmes think so?
daveb of wellington nz
The drawings of the Pray Codex are a style of their own, almost in a cartoon style, simple ink drawings with only two uniform primary colours. In no sense are they in the same category as their contemporary high European art, with all their concomitant artistic styles, and reliance on precedents.
The quality or technical skill of an artist is irrelevant to the membership in an artistic style. I don’t know a “Hungarian Gothic style” and the concept of “Prayan” style is inconceivable.
The Pray drawings occur in their context of the very first attempt at producing a written text in the Hungarian language. It may be regarded as a form of primal Hungarian art.
This is a common mistake among sindonists. The Pray Codex is an ensemble of texts. Only the Funeral Prayer is written in Hungarian and can be dated in 1192-95, according to E. Poulle. Other parts of the codex include a list of Hungarian kings (till 1210) and a collection of liturgical songs in Latin. The illustrations are inserted in the latter part and can be dated about the beginning of the thirteen Century (1216 as likely ante quem. All these texts and illustrations were influenced by the French and the Italian style. That is to say, they belong to the Gothic style.
Casual inspection of the oblique rectangle in the drawing will show that it has a length to width ratio of very close to 4:1, the same proportions as the Shroud cloth, the very same object that has a zigzag pattern on it, as has the Shroud, and the very same object that has an ‘L’ arrangement of holes. A further characteristic of the Shroud is that it is of fabric, so it need not be represented as having straight sides, but can be curved, without these being symmetrical. A straight edge placed against this rectangle will show the edges are indeed curved, and without the curves being symmetrical about the centre-line.
The proportions of the lid aren’t 4:1 (I think you don’t measure the part under the angel that is blurred); the zigzag lines are only vaguely similar to a herringbone; and the holes of the Turin Shroud aren’t in P and L shape as in the Pray Codex. The surface where the small circles are painted is rigid and differs completely with the representation of cloths and fabrics in the Pray Codex. The angel is seating over it, as is usual in the representations of the scene of the Holy Women. This is the lid of a sepulchre not a sheet.
However, all the great men have spoken and have expressed their skepticism all to their own satisfaction no doubt. I for one consider that they have all simultaneously come to an incorrect conclusion. So much for the value of consensus debate!
Every factual sentence is subject to possible rectification. But we have to consider it is true while we have no reason to abandon it. I don’t see any reason to abandon my claim that the Pray Codex doesn’t include any reference to the Shroud of Turin. I don’t see what kind of consensus you required here that implies I ought to say the contrary that I really think. I don’t know what great men you are thinking. I am not a great man, of course.
David Mo I agree DaveB has got the ratio wrong: it’s about 5.3:1.
To show that I, at least, am an open minded enquirer not fixed in my position, I have also come around to the view that the object is most likely a lid. I guess I have been swayed by the argument that a shroud would hardly be standing erect at such an angle, also that an angel would not be standing on it in that manner. I also don’t agree with DaveB’s comments on it’s so called wavy edges – I think the artist has tried to portray a straight edge but has got it slightly wonky.
I’ve never been convinced that the pattern represents herringbone weave. I had previously been of the view it might more generically signify weave. I’ve changed my mind. I think it represents a patterned lid.
However…
For now, I maintain the view that the Shroud IS alluded to in the work. I now think it probably the case that the cloth on top of the lid is the shroud, and that this is signified by association by the red lines (blood), the L shaped poker holes, and the head adjoining Mary’s sleeve connected by the floating letter. And of course the Shroud-like upper image.
No doubt you’re aware of the scientific congress planned for October 2015 on the shores of Lake Balaton (Hungary), Thomas.
“The Pray Manuscript: artistic allusion to the Turin Shroud or cruel delusion? The search for secure foundations”.
I think you should give the keynote address.
See link below to venue (one that should help concentrate minds).
http://kingsenglish.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/house-on-sand.jpg
nice humour Colin, much needed amongst all the serious debate!
If I was to be a “zen” Catholic (following in the footsteps of Merton) then I might say
“Master, smash the HPM, smash the shroud. It is but a distraction, an illusion, pulling us away from the truth”.
I am coming to the realisation that for too long it has been a distraction for my faith.
amen
Oops.
O.K.
But the HPM is not a copy of the Shroud and its image -but simply a psalter with several references to the Shroud! That’s the main difference you seem not to understand.
“References” is a euphemism you use to speak of imitated or copied features. The same for “congruences”. What are these if they are not imitated/copied features? I’m not mixing “different problems” I have disentangled verbal games you make.
Of course, I can find. But those P holes on the bottom red-crossed rectangle do not interest me at the moment. Just L holes.
Bravo! When reality discredits me, the reality doesn’t interest me.
It is enough to me that they mayrepresent holes on the Shroud.
The Reign of the maybe is infinite, but we are searching for the truth not the imagination. I suppose. And the truth is based on better or lesser evidences, not on vague possibilities.
There is clearly visible a bench on which angel is sitting. Thus the rectangle cannot be a tomb lid.
Why not? The angel seated on the lid or on the sepulchre by pointing the finger to the folded shroud is a usual representation of the Holy Women scene. I don’t know any image where the angel is seated on the shroud. It would be blasphemy.
Thanks Thomas. For me, the most disturbing aspect of this entire debate has been the wayward spelling of “its” (possessive) in the title…
And I apologise (belatedly) for my previous unfair comments to certain persons herein
I say, steady on old chap… We don’t welcome unseemly displays of contrition here…
Nil carborundum illegitimi…
To you all:
Yesterday I was to finish writing away Part One of my steganalysis of the PHM lower section ink drawing in light of its upper section ink drawing, 8th-13th c. CE iconography and Byzantine Easter liturgy… The fact is good old friends came over and I ended up… enjoying a couple of games of pétanque instead.
Besides to make my point quite clear, I do have to make a linen model of the HPM stepped pyramid patterned shroud with red crossed lining and accurately reconstruct the Benedictine monk artist’s steganic montage. No matter how clumsy his pen & ink drawing may seem, the guy was really brilliant as a steganiconographer.
Stay tuned. I promise, I’ll spare at least 2-4 hours this week to complete Part One and e-mail it to Dan as soon as possible (hopefully he will understand my paper this time and publish it. All the more so as am really taking my time this time and making a real effort for my English to be crystal clear to you all. It can slow down things a bit).
David Mo:
“References” is a euphemism you use to speak of imitated or copied features. The same for “congruences”. What are these if they are not imitated/copied features? I’m not mixing “different problems” I have disentangled verbal games you make.
Your complains about the names have absolutely no impact on the case.
Bravo! When reality discredits me, the reality doesn’t interest me.
Well said about yoursef, David Mo!
P-holes are out of the game. Whether red-crossed rectangle is a marble, or another part of the Shroud, this does not exclude the possibility of influence of the Shroud on Hungarian Pray Manuscript. So I simply do not take P-holes into account.
The Reign of the maybe is infinite, but we are searching for the truth not the imagination. I suppose. And the truth is based on better or lesser evidences, not on vague possibilities.
Those possibilities are compelling enough, to take them serious. The opposite thesis (the HPM has nothing to the Shroud) is also a “vague possibility”. But as I have shown -extremely unlikely.
O.K.:There is clearly visible a bench on which angel is sitting. Thus the rectangle cannot be a tomb lid.
DM: Why not? The angel seated on the lid or on the sepulchre by pointing the finger to the folded shroud is a usual representation of the Holy Women scene.
Why not? Because there is a bench, as I have shown! But like other sceptics you have disregarded this inconvenient (for you) fact! Why haven’t you adress that? Because there is no other answer?
You maintain the lid, even when proven wrong. That’s just desperate cry: “I must be right, I must be right. This must be lid, must be lid! Every similarities with the Shroud must be wrong! All sindonists are stupid!”
I don’t know any image where the angel is seated on the shroud. It would be blasphemy.
Unless you prove that, I don’t think so.
I assume that O.K saw my earlier post asking about the position the Shroud was displayed when the artist saw the Poker holes, and which of the four sets of poker holes he chose to copy onto whatever he chose to copy them on to. I assume that O.K and his supporters would argue that the artist is making an accurate representation of what he actually saw.
As early as primary school (i.e. before 1950) I had read the story of the Blind Men and the Elephant. The story originated in the Indian subcontinent, and has crossed many religious traditions, and appears in various children’s tales. Wikipedia makes this profound comment:
“It has been used to illustrate a range of truths and fallacies; broadly, the parable implies that one’s subjective experience can be true, but that such experience is inherently limited by its failure to account for other truths or a totality of truth. At various times the parable has provided insight into the relativism, opaqueness or inexpressible nature of truth, the behavior of experts in fields where there is a deficit or inaccessibility of information, the need for communication, and respect for different perspectives.”
Thus it is clear that there is an inability on the part of some to measure and calculate a simple length to width ratio. Some offer a “straw man” argument such as “when did the artist see the poker holes?” when no assertion has been made that the artist “saw” anything of the kind! In fact the artist had only heard bits and pieces of the story which he incorporated in his drawing.
Blind men continue to give their profound opinion on something they cannot perceive, admit, or even imagine!
I assume that O.K saw my earlier post asking about the position the Shroud was displayed when the artist saw the Poker holes, and which of the four sets of poker holes he chose to copy onto whatever he chose to copy them on to.
Sorry Charles, I missed it.
I assume that O.K and his supporters would argue that the artist is making an accurate representation of what he actually saw.
No. As the artist was supposedly drawing from memory, one should expect several inaccuracies there. The point is that several key features (A-F), allowing recognition of his source of inspiration, are copied into drawings.
O.K. Please tell me what position the Shroud was in so that the observer could see a set of poker holes in the same L position as on the marble lid.
In whatever position that L-holes were visible -no more speculation needed.
Please also tell me which of the four sets of poker holes you think he was copying.
The L-holes
http://www.sindonology.org/shroudScope/shroudScope.shtml?zl=5&image=3&lon=1951.0&lat=7122.0
And now, Charles, why did you refuse to answer my question?
“What was the configuration of those holes [that we know Constantine drilled into that same lid in order to allow pilgrims to look through to the original rock]?”
Instead you have arrogantly asked me several more questions? Why answering mine would be so great problem for you?
I am sorry O.K. Whenever you are challenged on the issue as to why the poker holes and the circular holes on whatever you think they are laid on, don’t marry up you just say we must expect inaccuracies!!!! Perhaps it is because these are NOT the poker holes.
If you look front on at the poker holes on the Shroud they do not present an L shape in the same pattern as on the Pray Codex. This is why I am wondering whether you do not mean the top layer of the poker holes but a lower one down. As you know they diminish the further into the folded cloth that you go but when the Shroud is fully extended you can just see them all so we cannot be sure which of the four the your artist has picked out to reproduce.over to you to tell us what you think -or perhaps if the artist is inaccurate anyway it doesn’t.’t matter but it makes your argument even weaker than it already is.
I have asked Nabber to actually show the examples of circular holes that he seems to know about, but he hasn’t. These are the examples that William Forsyth, an expert on sculptures, know represent the oculi in Jerusalem. If Nabber is right that these are sometime reproduced in a greater number than three then there are no problems with there being four Jerusalem oculi on the tomb lid but we do need to see his examples. My suspicion , that Nabber can prove unfounded, is that he actually has not seen the originals. This is because from what limited information I actually put into my posting, it would take some time to actually go through all the sculptures concerned to pick out Forsyth’s examples. I know both the cathedrals at Chartres and Modena and both have a wealth of sculpture to pick through and it is difficult, from my preliminary searches in a university library ,to find a full set of photographs. I wonder how Nabber instantly knew how to find all four of Forsyth’s examples.
To make it easier, I suggest that we go to Shroudscope, click in on the ‘poker holes’ and for O.K.to tell us which one of the four marked out images of the holes is the one he thinks has been copied by the Pray Codex artist. Taking the normal display pose of the Shroud – top left, top right, bottom left, or bottom right? Then we need to check whether the one he thinks is the right one could be represented by four CIRCLES in the pattern that can be seen on the Pray Codex.
But if we are not expecting the artist to be reproducing them accurately anyway, this does not get us much further other than, as I have said earlier, making O.K.s argument even weaker than it already is.
Anyone else is also free to have a guess which one is being reproduced. I have always assumed that the top right is the top one when the cloth is folded.
Or Charles, perhaps you have already answered that:
Charles Freeman
June 23, 2014 at 2:32 pm
[…]However in the first half of the tenth century, the Byzantine emperor Constantine VII covered the tomb with a marble slab but in order for pilgrims to see into it to the original rock he drilled three circular holes, or oculi. (bolding mine)
Three holes, Charles. See also Wilson’s article http://www.west.net/~shroud/pdfs/n67part2.pdf See also Polish Wikipedia http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazylika_Grobu_Pa%C5%84skiego#Okres_wypraw_krzy.C5.BCowych They all speak about THREE holes.
So Charles, you have himself admitted you are poor in mathematics. How did you wanted to turn THREE oculi into FOUR L-shaped circles on HPM?
Nabber wrote
June 23, 2014 at 4:39 pm
Freeman’s Oculi: None of your examples pertain. The first example had 3 circles in a row; the second had 4 circles in a square; the third example had numerous holes but none in the shape of 4 in an “L” (nor any “L”), and the last had numerous holes in a large circle. And none of those had anything to do with a tomb.
Constantine and the tomb: again, 3 holes; in fact 3 LARGE holes.
Again, 4 holes in an L-shape is so unique in HPM that it defies normal probability, and yes, they are in the middle of a herringbone weave.
So, what Charles? Zigzag pattern is also derived from the Holy Sepulcher? Two red streaks also? Naked Christ with no thumbs and cropped legs as well?
Charles if you had thought we could get fooled, you have turned out to be a fool yourself.
OK, I’m trying to catch up here on the latest observations. Is it your assertion that the bottom rectangle with the crosses represents the tomb lid (the holes being the drilled viewing holes) while the rectangle above, with L shaped holes and pyramid weave, represents the Shroud?
I am quite certain that above rectangle is the Shroud. Anyway, even had it been a lid (which possibility is excluded by the presence of bench on which the angels is siitting, see http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg ), it doesn’t change anything in the reasoning presented in article above. I wrote there
D –there is a pyramidal/zigzag pattern on alleged shroud/tomb lid
E –two red smudges on the surface of shroud/tomb lid </B.
As to the bottom rectangle, I don't know what is it. And as it cannot deny the supposed link between HPM and the Shroud in any way, it plays no role in my reasoning.
Perhaps I’m trying to fuse together some of the discussion with Charles and others. One problem I had with the HPM is that the bottom rectangle didn’t ‘make sense’ to me. The holes on it (more of a circular pattern)didn’t match with the top rectangle (a clear L pattern).
However if the bottom rectangle is the tomb lid those holes then make sense if they are the viewing holes. And this then allows the top rectangle to be more stand alone and represent (as you believe) the Shroud.
I’m not an artist but I could then see some significance to ‘reading’ the drawing from right to left and from the bottom to layer to the top layer: tomb (death), the Shroud and discarded grave linens (death overcome) and finally the angel (heaven triumphant).
Also the very fact that the men preparing Jesus for the tomb have him on a linen is not insignificant.
I must confess that your post, and subsequent excellent comments going back and forth among the group, has me thinking that the HPM is worth the debate it’s generated.
Perhaps I’m trying to fuse together some of the discussion with Charles and others. One problem I had with the HPM is that the bottom rectangle didn’t ‘make sense’ to me.
Truly the problem is not whether something makes sense, or not, but whether a combination of certain elements in the HPM which have their equivalents in the Shroud, is likely or unlikely to occur without the knowledge of the relic. That’s the point. And as it is unlikely, the Shroud must have existed at the time those drawings in the HPM were created.
There are many inconsequences in the HPM. So wondering “what the artist had on mind” is actually, in my opinion, quite idle thing. And even detrimental -the sceptics may dispute some particular interpretation, pretending that they have refuted the whole HPM-Shroud link.
Charles:
Perhaps it is because these are NOT the poker holes.
Perhaps this, or perhaps otherwise. I maintained this from the begining.
If you look front on at the poker holes on the Shroud they do not present an L shape in the same pattern as on the Pray Codex.
So THREE oculi from the Holy Sepulchre certainly present, right?
And the zigzag pattern is also derived from the Holy Sepulcher? Two red streaks? Naked Christ with no thumbs and cropped legs as well?
I have asked Nabber to actually show the examples of circular holes that he seems to know about, but he hasn’t. These are the examples that William Forsyth, an expert on sculptures, know represent the oculi in Jerusalem. If Nabber is right that these are sometime reproduced in a greater number than three then there are no problems with there being four Jerusalem oculi on the tomb lid but we do need to see his examples.
So far, I have not seen any of your examples, to back your view.
My suspicion , that Nabber can prove unfounded, is that he actually has not seen the originals.
My suspicion is that you are desperately wriggling and shirking, after I have shown that you have no arguments at hand, while trying cynically to deceive others. The more gibberish you add the more founded this suspicion seems to be.
O.K. I shall look forward to your (and to anyone else’s) choice of the poker holes.
The basic argument is that we have a shroud with two images, apparently unique as I know of no other examples, which was heavily bloodstained but we see absolutely no sign of its size, the images or bloodstains in the Pray Codex. The artist has not even shown the wounds of Christ without which the bloodstains could not have soaked into the Shroud.
All this when,as depictions of relics such as the Image of Edessa show, artists had no inhibitions about representing painted cloths as they appeared to be. We have documentary accounts of the marble lid placed over the rock tomb in the original Church of the Holy Sepulchre and eye -witness reports of oculi in the lid. There is nothing in the Pray Codex, other than its inept artistry, that is outside conventional depictions of these scenes. However, there does seem to be a particular concentration on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre/crusader crosses that ties in with the crusading hysteria that apparently swept Hungary in the mid- 1190s after the loss of Jerusalem in 1187.
We need to get together all the examples from the twelfth century onwards that Forsyth provides to see whether we can say anything coherent from them about the positioning of the oculi in the marble lid that is illustrated in the Codex as the original is lost. Much though I would love to go and visit all these places . . .
I can see from photographs of the fine Romanesque sculptures of Modena where the scene with the tomb is but alas it is not close up enough for me to see the oculi. I have no reason to doubt an expert such as Forsyth who has no axe to grind on this issue.
Nabber tells us that he has examples of four or more oculi but we wait on him to provide them. If he is right that there are cases of four oculi then that is an argument in my favour but I suspect that as none of his are on a tomb he is looking at the wrong images so I am not counting on him for support.
So there is absolutely no reason to read the Shroud into the Pray Codex. This is a simple argument, very typical of those made by art historians every day of the week. You have to find some firm foundation stones from which to build an argument and a vague reference to what you say admit inaccurate representations of a defect in a holy relic by an artist whom you admit had no intention of representing the Shroud in the first place are simply not good enough in the real world of academia.
It is up to you go on abusing me if that is your way of conducting discussions.
And all this to ‘prove’ the existence of a particular burial shroud of Christ which may, like many of its rivals ‘genuine’ burial shrouds of Christ, have been made in the medieval period but in this case before 1195 (e.g. Cadouin has now been dated through its calligraphy to 1095).
Nice one Charles.
One tiny quibble: the issues raised go way beyond those of academia.
What the world of academia does or does not think frankly does not bother this experimentalist too greatly .
We’re down to the nitty gritty details at a more visceral level – resenting those who try to browbeat us into submission with their shallow, self-serving agenda-driven line of argument, carefully selecting what they want us to see, getting ratty and insulting when one points out the inner contradictions.
It’s a microcosm really of a battle for hearts and minds that been going on for centuries – enlightenment v mind control propaganda.
Dear Colin,
A question from a purely scientific point of view.
Approximately two decades ago, I attended two seminars given by Dr. Alan Adler, the Porphrin Chemist, who was initially a member of STURP. He performed the blood studies on the Shroud.
I distinctly remember Dr. Adler stating. “I am so good in my field that had the shroud not been exposed to a flood, causing water damage, I could have told you if Jesus was circumcized or not.” Obviously, he was referring to that private area.
With that in mind, some researchers have stated DNA studies determined a trisomy (XXY) on the sex chromosome, indictative of Kleinfelter Syndrome, while other scientific researchers determined this chromosome to be XX with a Y embedded into one of the Xs or de la Chapelle Syndrome, referred to as XX male.
Further, I have read de la Chapelle mimics Kleinfelter and, as well, de la Chapelle syndrome is often misdiagnosed.
Regardless, as to what is finally determined (Kleinfelter Syndrome or de la Chapelle Syndrome), the salient feature of both are female traits in the male.
Now, observe the full body image of the Shroud of Turin and then look closely at the upper portion of the body and then compare this image to the image posted on this site (link below)
Comment Promoted: The Stavronikita Epitaphios
http://shroudstory.com/2014/06/28/comment-promoted-the-stavronikita-epitaphios/#comment-134352
Now compare the two images mentioned above to that of the Hungarian Pray Codex.
As a woman, I am clearly able to see female breasts on all three images, indicating either Kleinfelter Syndrome (XXY) or de la Chapelle Syndrome, (XX male).
Men diagnosed with Kleinfelter Syndrome are very tall, as a rule, and have female breasts. Jesus was tall, compared to other Jewish males, at that time.
I realize, as well, most believe Ron Wyatt was a fake, but surprisingly, back in the 70s or 80s, he found blood beneath the cross hole, after engineering a a dig into Zedekiah’s cave and supposedly, he had that black blood reconstituted and scientifically analyzed. The lab analysis also revealed the trisomy XXY. This study was done prior to any of the more recent studies on the sex chromosomes.
Finally concluding, what are your thoughts concerning the relationship of female traits, found in men with an extra X chromosome, to the three images I’ve mentioned in the paragraphs above?
Are you clearly able to see what appears obvious to me or do I need an opthalmologist? :)
And if you are able to make the connection of the female traits on the shroud image to the other images, would you consider this to be a type of proof, considering sex chromosome studies verify the images?
Thanks in advance.
Best,
P.S. I failed to mention, if you look at the gospel accounts, you will notice Jesus was not only attuned to the feelings of women, but He was considerably sensitive Himself.
This would confirm, I would think, with Jesus having an innate trait for high sensitiviy, either Kleinfelter or de la Chapelle syndrome. What say you?
Jesus wept – Luke 19:41
Jesus cried – John 7:37
Jesus wept – John 11:35
Best,
Hi Angel
Sorry to be butting in, but allow me to say the following;
Professor Carlton Coon described the ethnic characteristics of the Man of the Shroud. I have seen these characteristics in an Egyptian (Sepharadi) Jew and even in a Copt. Both were friends and males.
Don’t forget: there are men who weep and cry when they are alone, and they are machos. C.G. Jung told us about the male and female characteristics in all human beings.
Hello Angel
I’m putting together a posting right now that addresses the question of what one can “see” or “not see” on the TS, with emphasis especially on male pattern hair especially (beard and moustache). It will be stressing yet again the caution that is needed given that the TS is NOT a photograph. It’s a Xograph (but what is X? How does each body feature appear in an Xograph? What is or is not accentuated?).
Even if the TS shows ‘moobs’, to use the current slang, that does not necessarily mean there’s a genetically-based feminisation. Moobs are a common sight right now in my part of the world, with so many of us fellas wearing T-shirts despite it being rainy Wimbledon fortnight. Have your read up on the likely reasons? It’s due partly to plain obesity, but there are other factors to do with the hormonal balance, and the enzyme (aromatase) that interconverts testosterone and oestrogen. So we fellas have to avoid oestrogen-like substances in food and drink (beware hops in beer!) and fairly mundane nutritional factors like zinc status can be important.
I agree with you about Jesus displaying through reported words and action an occasional softer side, but I’d never for a moment thought it might have a genetic basis. Interesting.
Thanks, Louis.
I’ll check out your reference.
I absolutely agree with you that there are men who weep or have a tendency to show a more sentimental side of their personality.
My response; however, was more aligned with the detection of a trisomy (XXY). If, in fact, Jesus had Kleinfelter Syndrome, as an example, that would more precisely explain His masculine/feminine traits, like long slender hands/fingers, along with the fact He was exceptionally tall, in comparison to other Hebrew men of the time. Men with Kleinfelter syndrome are generally tall.
There have even been some who believe Abe Lincoln suffered from Kleinfelter syndrome. I; however, never researched that matter. :)
Best,
Louis says: “Let us know more about your research.”
***Angel says: Hi, Louis.
I continue to wonder how the researcher that appeared on the video, submitted by Joe Marino, (on this website) was able to distinguish between Kleinfelter Syndrome and de la Chapelle Syndrome, especially since de la Chapelle is sometimes mistaken for Kleinfelter.
I’ve also found Kleinfelter syndrome is a genetic disease, more common in Jewish males, and if the Shroud blood analyzes as XXY, then that would at least prove the man on the Shroud was/is Jewish.
Two links:
Genetic Diseases
http://www.tomorrowachild.org/resource_list.php?cat=diseases
“Males with two or more X chromosomes have Klinefelter Syndrome. …. It is a common genetic disease among the Jewish population in the US (central and …”
http://faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/faculty/michael.gregory/files/bio%20101/bio%20101%20lectures/genetics-%20human%20genetics/human.htm
Yet, I do have a friend who heads up a Jewish ancestry DNA site and I will email him for some clarity on what distinguishes one syndrome (de la Chapelle) from the other (Kleinfelter).
Best,
Dear Colin:
Thank you kindly for your response.
Yes, you are correct!
Many of the men today are significantly overweight (a causal factor for producing *moobs*) and this may be the result of an hormonal imbalance, breast cancer, bending of the elbow or merely the tilting of the beer stein. :)
However, Jesus was not overweight and the genetic studies that were performed did confirm the trisomy, whether if be XXY or XX male.
I’m looking forward to your posting, especially since it will enlighten us further on what we see, what we don’t see or what we think we’re seeing. :)
Thanks again, Colin, for your time and effort.
Best,
edit: Line 8: whether it be
Hi Angel
You’re welcome. Yes, I’ve read that about Abe Lincoln and about the slight trembling, something to do with involuntary muscular movement, that he is said to have suffered from. Let us know more about your research.
Charles:
O.K. I shall look forward to your (and to anyone else’s) choice of the poker holes.
“June 30, 2014 at 8:25 am
The L-holes
http://www.sindonology.org/shroudScope/shroudScope.shtml?zl=5&image=3&lon=1951.0&lat=7122.0 ”
But truly, any of the remaining 3 may apply as well.
The basic argument is that we have a shroud with two images, apparently unique…
Waffling.
Colin: back to your laboratory. You are wasting your time.
Thanks for that OK. You’ve proved my point, not that it needed any further demonstration where this thread is concerned. Your entire MO is one of mind control. You are, to put it mildly, a control freak. Have a good life (but try to ease off on the mind control).
But the L is the wrong way round compared to the image on the coffin lid ( I am sorry but this lid really cannot be the Shroud itself unless it had a dose of starch at the moment of the Resurrection!) and the poker hole going out to the right is not a circle. I think you are better off with one of the other sets of poker holes as your inspiration, but as you say it could be any one of them which weakens your argument a bit. (Basically you are saying you prefer the one set of poker holes that is not of the same pattern as the L on the coffin lid but, if that doesn’t work, it could have been any one of the three others!!!).
You must be the only person in the whole world of Shroud research who thinks mentioning the two images that are the central feature of the Shroud and distinguish it from the other burial shrouds we know about is ‘waffling’. Or perhaps you are so obsessed about this defect in the Shroud’s weave (probably caused by the spilling of incense on the folded cloth) being somehow important in defining it as a sacred relic that you have missed out on the images, the size of the cloth and the bloodstains,all of which make the Shroud , authentic or not, what it is, but none of which are shown on the Codex.
I think you’re splitting hairs on the “L” Charles.
If the artist was working from memory, or from hearsay, then the general principle he was working to was that there was a prominent Shroud feature of poker holes arranged in an L shape. And he represented that.
Similarly the red streaks. They are not a precise representation of the blood on the shroud, but rather a broad and simplified reference to it.
The essential question is why he tried to hide the Shroud within the Pray Codex by illustrating peripheral defects of it instead of showing the dominant positive, from a spiritual point of view, features of it. It makes no sense at all. But Max is going to explain all!
The lid pattern in no way resembles the pattern on the Shroud- it is not even regular and the crosses are red Crusader crosses. The streaks could be anything. But ,yawn,yawn, we have been there before .
Charles you don’t concede much do you.
Good explanations have previously been provided by several people as to the lack of a literal image.
I think you are being particularly and unreasonably obstinate in your views.
No, I am not being obstinate. I am just waiting for an explanation as to why the artist should seek to conceal what are defects of a sacred relic within a spiritual picture and ignore the dominant features of the Shroud, the size, images and bloodstains.
None has been forthcoming but Max is promising to give one. At least he realises that this is a genuine problem that needs explaining.
If you look at representations of the Image of Edessa or the Veil Of Veronica, you will see that the artist made accurate depictions of a face – even to the extent of copying the open eyes – so if ,as I don’t see any reason to believe, there is the Shroud here it is reasonable to ask why it Is concealed even to the extent of not showing bleeding wounds on Jesus’s body.
Your argument suggests that the artist saw it, ignored the dominant features ( could he really have forgotten tHe images and the bloodstains?), but saw the poker holes and reproduced them inaccurately ( as now seems to be accepted) on a marble lid.
My approaches are just mainstream historical research methods- don’t make a fool of yourself by seeing what is not there- no one loses out by being cautious. It is the first time that I have been abused for saying the evidence is not good enough to satisfy a professional historian! But there is always a first for everything.
The evidence is good enough for some art historians, including de wesselow, Belting etc.
Charles said:
“There is nothing in the Pray Codex, other than its inept artistry, that is outside conventional depictions of these scenes.”
I must strongly disagree with that statement (notwithstanding some of my concessions to some of your and others’ arguments). It’s simply wrong.
There are several divergences from conventional depictions:
– Where else are there discrete, non-artistic / non-decorative red streaks on tomb lids?
– Where else are there 4 holes in an L shaped pattern on tomb lids?
– Where else do we see a lid pattern similar to the HPM?
– Where else do we see a ‘floating’ male head connected to a Shroud via a “floating” letter / character?
– Where else do we see an ephemeral pattern of crosses on top of a tomb lid?
the HPM image is clearly full of symbolism never seen before (as far as records indicate)
I now have a copy of Forsyth’s book. The images he refers to: “among numerous examples, the three circular holes are represented in the twelftth century on a capital at Modena [I can’t find this], a relief at Monte San Angelo (Foggia) [https://sites.google.com/site/modillonsetpeinturesromanes/Italie/monte-sant-angelo], the lintel over the south portal of Saint-Gilles at Arles [http://www.medart.pitt.edu/menufrance/sgilles/frieze/sgscfrieze.html]; and a capital of the south portal on the west façade at Chartres [http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/chartreswest/capitals.html]. For the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries one can cite the corona of Window E of Canterbury [http://www.themarlowestudies.org/stainedglass1.html]; a Limoges enamel shrine from Cherves, near Cognac, now in the Metropolitan Museum of Art [http://www.historyandcivilization.com/Tabernacle_of_Cherves__made_in_Limoges__found_in_1896__Copper__repouss____gilt__champlev___enamel__c_1220-1230__Met_.jpg – left hand panel]; the choir screen of Bourges [I can’t find this]; a relief in Elne Cathedral [nor this], and some similar French ivories illustrated in Koechlin, III, pls. XIII and XIV.”
Thanks to Hugh. I’ll just comment on the one, the lintel over the south portal of west facade of Saint Gilles at Arles: 3 holes in the side of the tomb, not 4, no “L”, and certainly not in the Shroud, which is shown hanging out of the tomb. Seems like the 3 holes would have come from the Constantine 3-holed tomb.
Ditto the Mont San Angelo, same 3 holes, and as a side comment, these are 3 huge holes a la Constantine and not small “poker” holes (4) as in HPM.
O.K.
Why not? Because there is a bench, as I have shown! But like other sceptics you have disregarded this inconvenient (for you) fact! Why haven’t you adress that? Because there is no other answer?
You maintain the lid, even when proven wrong. That’s just desperate cry: “I must be right, I must be right. This must be lid, must be lid! Every similarities with the Shroud must be wrong! All sindonists are stupid!”
“Proven wrong”? “Shown”? Do you see three lines (?) and you think that it is proved that there is a bench? Really? You don’t see a bench. You see some lines and you arbitrarily interpret that these lines are a bench.
Are there also benches in these pictures?
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht9/IRHT_150077-p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht6/IRHT_100563-p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht6/IRHT_100414-p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht6/IRHT_098596-p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht6/IRHT_102299-p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht18/IRHT_018763-p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht18/IRHT_018239-p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht17/IRHT_07452-p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht2/IRHT_052453-p.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht8/IRHT_117499-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht8/IRHT_117025-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht6/IRHT_094014-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht4/IRHT_073106-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht11/IRHT_161367-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht5/IRHT_083246-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht2/IRHT_055921-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht3/IRHT_060804-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/emolimo/imaz/vianc2d4.jpg
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht9/IRHT_150398-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht7/IRHT_109659-p.jpg http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimage/enlumine/irht5/IRHT_086567-p.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Andrea_%28Nachfolge%29_Orcagna_001.jpg
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=112612&handle=li http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=112612&handle=li http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=3409&handle=li http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=3409&handle=li http://www.cgfaonlineartmuseum.com/duccio/duccio4.jpg
http://art-roman.net/asnieres/asnieres2.htm http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=7120 http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=7120
Etc., etc.
No. Benches are in your imagination.
NOTA BENE: I have never done any disqualification of your intelligence, neither of the sindonists in general. I don’t know why you think so. I don’t like this way of debating.
I apologize. At the end is repeated three pictures because I was a little sick of copy and paste.
PS to Angel. You see male breasts. Others might see chest hair, especially in those contrasty Enrie negatives.
I had wondered about chest hair, and had been looking for wispiness when, thanks to your prompting, a veritable matt was right under my nose all the time. However, I shall be displaying Enrie and Durante pix side by side, when the risk of seeing things that aren’t really there becomes all too apparent, arguably facial hair too.
If you want more.
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=11283 http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=11283 http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=19953 http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=19953 http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=27151 http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=27151 http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=39575 http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/ILLUMINBig.ASP?size=big&IllID=39575
http://molcat1.bl.uk/IllImages/Kslides/big/K058/K058710.jpg http://molcat1.bl.uk/IllImages/Kslides/big/K021/K021567.jpg http://molcat1.bl.uk/IllImages/NOF/big/011LAN000000383U00013000.jpg http://molcat1.bl.uk/IllImages/NOF/big/011ROY000001D10U00007000a.jpg http://molcat1.bl.uk/IllImages/Ekta/big/E092/E092829a.jpg http://molcat1.bl.uk/IllImages/Kslides/big/K038/K038609.jpg http://molcat1.bl.uk/IllImages/BLStudio/big/YT2/021v.jpg http://imageviewer.kb.nl/ImagingService/imagingService?id=BYVANCKB%3Amimi_76f5%3A022v_min_a1&zoom=1 http://imageviewer.kb.nl/ImagingService/imagingService?id=BYVANCKB%3Amimi_76f13%3A023r_min&zoom=1 http://imageviewer.kb.nl/ImagingService/imagingService?id=BYVANCKB%3Amimi_135e19%3A101r_init&zoom=1 http://imageviewer.kb.nl/ImagingService/imagingService?id=BYVANCKB%3Amimi_mmw_10b21%3A150r_min&zoom=1 http://imageviewer.kb.nl/ImagingService/imagingService?id=BYVANCKB%3Amimi_mmw_10b23%3A524r_min&zoom=1
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/CorexDoc/RMN/Media/TR1/WLYQ6N/12-522173.jpg http://www.photo.rmn.fr/CorexDoc/RMN/Media/TR1/SX9JPD/10-522123.jpg http://www.photo.rmn.fr/CorexDoc/RMN/Media/TR1/4K56UR/06-504090.jpg http://www.photo.rmn.fr/CorexDoc/RMN/Media/TR1/DK3I0G/07-533778.jpg http://www.photo.rmn.fr/CorexDoc/RMN/Media/TR1/K3MOSV/12-571505.jpg http://www.photo.rmn.fr/CorexDoc/RMN/Media/TR1/HY8VWB/65-003164.jpg
Virtually in all the representations of the Holy Women scene the angel is sitting on the grave or on the lid. You have to give more stronger reasons to show that the Pray Codex this doesn’t happen.
Beautiful collection David, I can’t see any of the characteristics that point to the Shroud though. This further demonstrates that, contrary to the wide spectrum of artists you brought to the table, whoever painted the HPM had something more in mind.
Nice David.
I’ve acknowledged my own change of opinion re: “the lid”.
However, whilst some obstinate folk around here still deny there is no discontinuity in the Pray Manuscript and the artistic tradition, I strongly disagree.
Surely you can agree there IS some discontinuity…I’ve seen no evidence of non-decorative and discrete red streaks, isolated / discrete circles in L shaped patters, floating greek letters, and floating heads…but if you can show me then like always I can reconsider, being one not fixated on dogmatic and inflexible perspectives.
Congratulations, David Mo!
You have disqualified your intelligence yourself!
You know why?
Because none of your examples apply! They show simply, what they show: lids
On the contrary , there is clearly a bench in the Pray Manuscript.http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
Two lines left from the angel, one vertical, slightly tilted to the left, one horizontal, slightly upwards, joining angel’s dress. That’s clealry a bench, what else could it be!
And that means the zigzag patterned rectangle cannot be a lid!
And there is more. Do you even understand my reasoning presented in the article, or is it beyond your limits of comprehension?
I have written:
There are several key details on both illustrations. Let’s estimate the probability of their occurrence on Entombment/Three Marys scene by random
Illustration I:
· A –the Jesus is naked, with His hands crossed above pelvis (similar on the Shroud) –let’s assume that such portrayal occurs in 1/100 instances.
And so on.
The more examples you deliver, the better my case.
I now have a copy of Forsyth’s book. The images he refers to: “among numerous examples, the three circular holes are represented in the twelftth century on a capital at Modena [I can’t find this], a relief at Monte San Angelo (Foggia)
Thank you Hugh. Due to your effort, we are assured that Charles claims have no basis at all. None of the examples presented by you, nor David Mo shows 4 L-shaped circles.
And as I said in the previous post, more such examples, the better my case -showing how unlikely is to find all features A-F on one page simply by chance. That’s the basis.
And something more From Wilson’s article:
http://www.west.net/~shroud/pdfs/n67part2.pdf
A depiction of the Entombment on a stone capital of c.1150 in Chartres Cathedral
is one of the earliest depictions of these portholes. However, documentary mention
of them occurs even earlier, in the writings of a Russian pilgrim called Daniel who visited
the sepulchre in 1106-7:
And now this holy bench is covered with marble plaques and one has cut in the side
three little round windows, and by these windows one sees the holy stone.’
(bolding mine)
Hey guys, Thomas, Nabber, DaveB, everyone!
May I ask for your confirmation?
There is clearly a bench on which the angel is sitting, pointed with green arrow:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
Do you agree?
Now a version for total morons, and blind:
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2554/3odxx.jpg
There is a bench, clearly. So zigzag rectangle is not a lid.
O.K.: I will confirm your point. Not only have you pointed out the bench in green lines, but the “third” line that you did not highlight in green is actually the dividing line between the bench with plain background, and the Shroud with wavy (herringbone) background.
That’s a fantastic collection, David; thank you so much.
Agree -especially as it is supporting my view.
You’re welcome, Hugh.
Ten days since original posting, 348 comments, looks like average of 35 comments per day, and there’s still no conclusion in sight!
Recurring tedious question from Charles, answered several times already, already, already!
Q: “If the artist wanted to show the Shroud, why didn’t he just show it with a representation of its main characteristic image, as is shown clearly on the several images of Edessa and Mandylion?” Response: “What is the subject of the Mandylion representations? Is it a Lamentation scene? No! Is it the visit of the Holy women? No! Is it meant to be a representation of the face of Christ not made by human hands? Yes!!! What is the subject of the HPL cartoon? Is it a Lamentation scene showing the burial of Christ? Yes! Is it the visit of the Holy women on the morning of the resurrection? Yes! Is it meant to be a representation of the Shroud image? Ahah! The image on the Shroud may be implied from the prostrate Christ but without distracting from the artist’s principal subject? Why should it be intended as the image of Christ depicted on the Shroud? Because the artist hints at it, with the zigzag pattern on the inclined, curved edge, rectangle, with its holes arranged in an ‘L’ shape, distinctly different from the “oculi” representations on the underlying slab, with the hints of blood flows on the cloth, with the crossed arms across the groin, with only four fingers showing on the hands of the Christ figure with no thumbs, and the pposture of the prostrate body!
Will Charles et al therefore acknowledge that the HPL artist knew something of the Shroud in 1192-95? Answer: No!! Why? Because there are none so blind as will not see! End of story!
Dave:
There is clearly a bench on which the angel is sitting, pointed with green arrow:
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8435/kj41.jpg
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2554/3odxx.jpg
Do you agree?
Nobody seems to want to agree with you on this point, but I do. The angels tunic position implies his knees are bent and in a sitting position. Unless he is wearing a hoop skirt. Hence that square behind him is clearly meant to be a bench.
Thanks.
I think daveb makes a worthwhile point, about the miraculous relic not being the subject of the Three Marys scenes, but if I may I would disagree about the conclusions he draws. Other commentators have suggested that had the Shroud been known about when the Gospels were written it would have been mentioned in them. I don’t I agree with that. It could even be that the fact that any burial cloths are mentioned at all is evidence of their importance. However hundreds of years later, when not only the Shroud, but its images and its poker holes were known about, it would surely have been the central focus of any iconography about the empty tomb. To omit its discovery in the Three Marys scenes would be to lose one of the most important points of the occasion (the first being the disappearance of Jesus himself). The fact that no other Three Marys scenes give any great prominence to the shroud, even those from well before and well after the Pray drawing, is an indication to me that it had no great prominence, and was, in fact, not known about.
But pay no attention, as apparently now I’m a blind, ignorant, irrelevant, uncomprehending, illogical, obsessive, absurd, desperate, poisonous, dishonest, deceitful, envious, fearful, fanatical, sychophantic moron.
However hundreds of years later, when not only the Shroud, but its images and its poker holes were known about, it would surely have been the central focus of any iconography about the empty tomb. To omit its discovery in the Three Marys scenes would be to lose one of the most important points of the occasion (the first being the disappearance of Jesus himself). The fact that no other Three Marys scenes give any great prominence to the shroud, even those from well before and well after the Pray drawing, is an indication to me that it had no great prominence, and was, in fact, not known about.
Hugh, today we have 21st century. The Shroud is known to the masses. Can you say that the image on the Shroud of Turin is the central point of Christian iconography? Can you, on contemporary (20-21st century) paintings and drawings, find the image of Christ on His burial cloth? Why? Why not?
And then use the same reasoning to the 12th century.
The burial cloth only got passing mention in the gospel and that was because the risen Christ was more important.
Louis: “The burial cloth only got passing mention in the gospel and that was because the risen Christ was more important.”
Disagree, partly. The fact that made some Disciples believe in the Resurrection, before they met the Risen Christ, was specifically the Empty Shroud, not the Empty Tomb. The “Empty Tomb” was really just a generic description of the scene (IMHO). I would not say the Shroud got “passing mention” — it was mentioned in all 4 Gospels, with details of it provided. That said, the Shroud was then kept secret because Jews were not supposed to make or keep images, nor were they supposed to have bloody items associated with death.
Hi Nabber,
Agreed, to a certain extent. It seems that Jesus timed his appearances to not give us poor humans a big shock. First the empty tomb with the empty burial shroud, then the appearances. I must add that what gave impetus to the Jesus movement was first and foremost the appearances and, yes, as you say, the Jews were not supposed “to have bloody items associated with death.” It had something to do with ritual purity That is why I have been insisting that no burial cloth was being paraded in public, by Paul or anyone else, to spread the Christian faith.
Why oh why is this topic so emotional? I think it is because for a significant number of well informed people the resurrection drawing is irrefutable non-scientific evidence that the carbon 14 dating of the shroud is wrong. That is threatening to others who cannot muster a sufficiently convincing argument that it nothing of the sort. Who is right? I don’t know. It doesn’t matter. It makes for widespread and reasonable doubt about 1988 tests. Short of finding some non-interpretive and non-speculative proof that it does not contain elements from the shroud, it will remain a playable trump card for those who believe the shroud is authentic.
I agree Paulette, the reason it’s so emotional is because it’s so significant. It also demonstrates that even when faced with 6 congruence points with the shroud the skeptics can go into great length trying to distract others away from them. I think after putting out their best effort to do so, and thanks to O.K and Daveb’s (and others) perseverence in bringing back the discussion to those congruence points, they have failed to demonstrate what they represent.
I find that many of the skeptics even ignore my points. I think it’s because they can’t deal with them
Not that it will do anything to sway anybody’s mind but I have found an article on the development of the threnos- the burial and lamentation scenes ` from the ninth century, with many illustrations, by Kurt Wertzmann ( De Artibus Opuscula XL, Volume One, Text, Volume II, illustrations, 1961) that shows how classical scenes of the ‘Bewailing of Actaeon’ come into the iconography of these scenes. Actaeon was torn apart by hounds when he saw Diana bathing. Apparently the mutilated body of a man killed in his prime became equated with Christ. Wertzmann shows a sarcophagus (from the Louvre) of a naked Actaeon being laid out in a very similar pose to many Lamentation scenes and sees this as an important source from the tenth century in both east and west ,when there was a renewed interest in copying classical iconography for New Testament texts. Certainly provides a model for the nudity.
But none of this is relevant to those committed to the Shroud being somehow hidden in the Codex.
I am not emotional about the Pray Codex because even if somebody did prove to me that one could somehow see the Shroud in it it would, as I have said before, prove no more than that the Shroud might be one of the many earlier (such as the Cadouin shroud) rather than later medieval linens claiming to the the real thing. What fascinates me is how people are convinced that the Shroud is there when none of its predominant features can be seen anywhere and only its defects ( I have never in all my studies seen the damage in a relic being given prominence.)
The failure to show any wounds on Christ rules out any possibility that the artist could have envisaged this as the Christ who was wrapped in the bloodstained Turin Shroud.
Is this really the only evidence for the existence of the Shroud before 1260? I had not realised that things were quite so desperate!!
Charles:
Certainly provides a model for the nudity.
Sucked out of the thumb. So the artist combined THREE oculi from the Holy Sepulchre, turned it into 4 L-shaped, combined it with the ancient myth of Actaeon, and Shroud of Cadouin. Nice try, Charles!
LOL!!!
I am not emotional about the Pray Codex because even if somebody did prove to me that one could somehow see the Shroud in it it would, as I have said before, prove no more than that the Shroud might be one of the many earlier (such as the Cadouin shroud) rather than later medieval linens claiming to the the real thing.
Where do you find A-F elements in the Shroud of Caduoin, Charles?
The failure to show any wounds on Christ rules out any possibility that the artist could have envisaged this as the Christ who was wrapped in the bloodstained Turin Shroud.
Bull^&*%
Is this really the only evidence for the existence of the Shroud before 1260? I had not realised that things were quite so desperate!!
No. There are more. But this topic is on the Hungarian Pray Manuscript, which is enough evidence for the existence of the Shroud before 1200.
‘Defects’? Are the blood streaks ‘defects’?
I guess you are referring to the poker holes. I have addressed this ad nauseam ie they were the most prominent feature and could easily have attained symbolic importance – eg through numerology or demonstration that the sacred shroud defied destruction.
I can’ t remember how many supposed ‘genuine’ burial shrouds of Jesus there were around in the Middle Ages – certainly more in the west than in the east and they certainly start in the west in the ninth century. Most have, of course, vanished either in the Protestant Reformation or in the French Revolution.
I have said clearly that I don’ think that the artist depicting the crumpled shroud or sudarium shown on the coffin lid was actually doing any more than reproducing what he had read in the gospels but he may have had a particular shroud, perhaps one of the vanished ones, in mind. There were lots to choose from.
My point is clear – if we have perhaps twenty five ‘genuine’ burial shrouds from the ninth to the fifteenth centuries, a date for the Turin shroud of before 1195 may mean no more than it is from an earlier medieval group rather than a later one. I prefer to forget the radiocarbon date and work to find other means of placing the Shroud. As a result I just think the Pray Codex is irrelevant and am amused by the obsession that O.K has with it when it has so little to prove either way.
But I do think someone needs to be showing all the reasons why this is not the shroud or we will have another generation of shroud researchers simply repeating the same old so- called evidence year after year, decade after decade, with absolutely nothing new being discovered as seems to be the case with the St.Louis Conference. Is there any other field where ‘ research’ has not come up with anything new for thirty years? If the Shroud can be ‘seen’ in the Pray Codex there must be hundreds of other illuminated manuscripts which also illustrate the Shroud. All you need is a few holes and the mathematical methods of an O.K !
I can’ t remember how many supposed ‘genuine’ burial shrouds of Jesus there were around in the Middle Ages […] My point is clear – if we have perhaps twenty five ‘genuine’ burial shrouds from the ninth to the fifteenth centuries
In my article devoted to that problem (http://ok.apologetyka.info/ateizm/ile-byo-pocien-pogrzebowych-jezusa-cz1,749.htm ), I counted 12 alleged burial cloths -including smaller cloths, coifs and kerchiefs -not including smaller fragments – and still some of them can actually be the same, so that number may be lower.
certainly more in the west than in the east and they certainly start in the west in the ninth century.
Then you are wrong. What about Anonymous of Piacenza around 570 AD, and Arculfus, circa 670 AD? They reported burial cloths in the Holy Land, before they travelled to the West.
Poor historian you are, Charles…
Is there any other field where ‘ research’ has not come up with anything new for thirty years?
Biblical exegesis, for example.
he may have had a particular shroud, perhaps one of the vanished ones, in mind. There were lots to choose from.
And only one that has all those particular details A-F.
If the Shroud can be ‘seen’ in the Pray Codex there must be hundreds of other illuminated manuscripts which also illustrate the Shroud.
They vanished in history, or are waiting for discovery. Or they simply do not copy such peculiar details like the HPM. Anyway it doesn’t change that the Shroud of Turin is portrayed in the latter.
Hard to accept defeat, Charles?
I agree that all those shrouds that are genuine, every single one of them, originated in the east, in no less than in Jerusalem itself but only a few of these went to the eastern empire, most ended up in the west.
Your earlier response to the key point that if the artist had seen the shroud he would have put bloodstains on Christ’s body is typical of your debating style. It is actually a key point and I think irrefutable.
Yes I also agree, from limited knowledge of the subject, that biblical exegesis might just have been as stagnant in the past thirty years as research on the Shroud. But it is a close run thing.
But the key point is that all this has become ritual- so long as everyone repeats the same mantras at every conference all is well. So although this blog has shown that sindon cannot be translated as burial cloth ,especially when a separate burial cloth is mentioned in the same text, and that tetradiplon cannot be translated in any way to support the idea that a cloth is only doubled three times to make eight layers, no doubt It will still be read it out as such and no one will challenge it, any more than they challenge the liturgy of the Mass.
So I just wonder what is going to happen if someone working on ancient linens in a conservation lab comes up with irrefutable evidence that the linen of the Shroud can only be say seventh century ,or eleventh century or fourteenth century, what will happen then? Stephen Jones may yet be needed!
I am happy to accept defeat the moment when you can show me a shroud the size of the Turin Shroud, a dual image or bloodstains on crumpled shroud shown on the Codex. The fact that the body of Christ is without bleeding wounds is enough to show that it could not have stained the Shroud and that the artist cannot have been trying to depict the bloodstained Turin shroud.
It is not unreasonable to expect someone who claims that the Shroud can be seen in the Pray Codex to present evidence of one of the dominant features that would strike anyone seeing the Shroud when it was exposed.
Seeing a relic only through its blemishes would certainly be a first. Do you really think that anyone depicting the Shroud would only show the parts where there was damage?
So over to you. I have set out some perfectly reasonable criteria on which we can make a judgement.
Again you’ve ignored valid arguments from several people. Depiction of Christ’s body on the shroud – especially by a relatively unskilled artist – would appear as if Christ was still lying on the shroud WHICH DEFIES THE WHOLE LOGIC OF A RESURRECTION SCENE
I think this is a valid point and worth thinking about. However, I don’t think these scenes are ‘resurrection’ scenes. They are ‘what happened next’ scenes. Even if the Shroud had been omitted from the Gospels, which I think can be explained in terms of secrecy and uncleanness, I don’t think that, if it had any reliquary importance, it would have been omitted from later Three Marys scenes. Indeed, as I said above, one of the major themes of such scenes would have been the discovery of the relic, which must have been shown rather more explicitly than by a couple of wavy lines and some holes. (By the way, are we not making rather a large assumption in supposing these burns to have pre-dated the Pray manuscript. They may well not have occurred until much later!). OK made the point that, even after the Shroud’s incontestable date of existence, Three Marys scenes still do not show it. The reason for this, I fear, is not that artists felt it detracted from the scene, but that they didn’t think it was there in the first place. I think it most unlikely that an artist believing that the image of Christ was left behind in the tomb after the resurrection, would not include it in any depiction of it. In my experience of medieval relics (minimal), what was important to the faithful was not what it looked like – any old sheet would have done – but its provenance, and artistic renderings of its discovery would abound, rather as all those pictures of nails, crowns of thorns, whipping stones and so on tend to resemble a supposed relic rather than any actual archaeological artifact.
Or does this defy logic?
Hugh I agree it is an assumption that the poker holes existed circa. We do know they existed circa 1500 prior to the burns The point is if they did exist circa 1200 then that would help explain why a ‘defect’ may have attained significance. Of course they seem less significant to 21st century eyes in light of various burns and digital enhancements of body image…..
O.K.
Two lines left from the angel, one vertical, slightly tilted to the left, one horizontal, slightly upwards, joining angel’s dress.
There is a Spanish joke about Jaimito, his father and the teacher. The teacher was worried about Jaimito because the child saw “things” (non sancta things) in the simple lines sketched by the teacher, and called to Jaimito’s father. But when the father saw the lines (remember that they are only lines)… Well, I cannot translate adequately the joke to English and it is not very suitable for this blog. Let it stay .
That’s clealry a bench, what else could it be!
Naturlich! Two lines = a bench. Every intelligent man sees this! But the no-intelligent men see anything; for example, perhaps it is the left angle of the edge of the sepulchre. I think the artist of the Pray Codex was not very skilful. He is probably trying to copy or remember another illustration but paints badly some things. See the sceptre with the cross. Nothing appears to hold it, and there is something as four fingers in an impossible place. Or see the ornament of crosses under the so called shroud. (By the way, the shroud of Turin has not any cross similar to these that are on this alleged shroud of the Pray Codex. It is not a shroud, of course).
But this story of the bench that not seems a bench at all intrigues me. How appeared it here? Is the angel who brought it from the heaven? Perhaps he was afraid of having to wait for the Holy Women for too long (the women, you know).
Don’t worry if I don’t take too seriously your famous bench. The non-intelligent people don’t be able to understand the theories of intelligent ones. That’s why, all the painters of the Middle Ages -non-intelligent, of course-, put the angel naturally seated on the sepulchre or on the lid, exactly in the same position of the angel of the Pray Codex. No one has the very intelligent idea to paint a heavenly bench. This is another extraordinary exploit of the Pray Codex… or of your intelligent interpretation of it.
In any event, let me abandon you at this point. You’ll be tired to discuss with non-intelligent people as me, and you become the more and more interested to introducing some issues which I have not interest in discussing with you; as the level of intelligence, for example. I let you rest and be calm.
It is a bench or a slab of some sort that the angel sits on. Look at the body position of the angel. What else could it be…a public toilet?
For David Mo, surely!
Mark 16:5 (NIV) As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
David Goulet, and others:
You cannot convince a cynical boor. The only thing you can to do is to show to the public he indeed is who he is -a cynical boor.
Thomas:
Surely you can agree there IS some discontinuity…I’ve seen no evidence of non-decorative and discrete red streaks, isolated / discrete circles in L shaped patters, floating greek letters, and floating heads…but if you can show me then like always I can reconsider, being one not fixated on dogmatic and inflexible perspectives.
The artist of the Pray Codex is particularly anarchic in adorning the sepulchre: two kinds of crosses, pyramidal forms, circles and red zigzags. I don’t think we ought to find a sense to this hotchpotch.
In regard of the other features noted by you, we can search for randomly different features in other paintings and we will found also “astonishing coincidences”. Sure. I have noted above the altar of Lübeck, for example, with more consistent features. If we use vague similarities the task is easier.
And I remember you that there is not any L shape in the Pray Codex. There is a pair of L+P. It is a significant difference. I insist the unique feature clearly shared without any ambiguity by the Shroud and the Pray Codex is the nudity. Very poor evidence to counter the evident dissimilarities between them.
David Mo:
The artist of the Pray Codex is particularly anarchic in adorning the sepulchre: two kinds of crosses, pyramidal forms, circles and red zigzags. I don’t think we ought to find a sense to this hotchpotch.
Unless we accept that the Pray Codex is derived from the Shroud of Turin -conclusion absolutely unaccpetable by dogmatic sceptics.
In regard of the other features noted by you, we can search for randomly different features in other paintings and we will found also “astonishing coincidences”. Sure. I have noted above the altar of Lübeck, for example, with more consistent features. If we use vague similarities the task is easier.
There are many more coincidence with the Shroud in the HPM then only A-F -I chose only the independent, and most compelling, which are very rare, and hard to explain otherwise. This is not the case of the altar of Lübeck, on which coincidences found are more “common”, although it still can be influenced by the Shroud in some way (and I suppose it indirectly is).
And I remember you that there is not any L shape in the Pray Codex. There is a pair of L+P. It is a significant difference.
I don’t think so. There is clearly L-shape circles, the same as on the Shroud. As to P on the bottom red-crossed rectangle -it is hard to say what they, or that rectangle represent, so I simply do not take it into account. It does not exclude the HPM-Shroud link in any way.
I insist the unique feature clearly shared without any ambiguity by the Shroud and the Pray Codex is the nudity. Very poor evidence to counter the evident dissimilarities between them.
There are no dissimilarites which would exclude the HPM-Shroud link. As to ambiguity of interpretation of other marks -it is not so important. What is important is that they certainly may be atributed to the Shroud, and that the combination of them, without the prior knowledge of the Shroud, is extremely unlikely.
David: “And I remember [sic] you that there is not any L shape in the Pray Codex.”
Incredible. Absolutely incredible. For O.K.: this is the kind of skeptic that gives skeptics a bad name. You should disregard this guy completely.
Usually yes. But at times, one should show that a boor is a boor -and let he cry at his hole!
All right:
“And I remind you that there is not any L shape in the Pray Codex. There is a pair of L+P. It is a significant difference.”
Now you get it or not yet?
David: “And I remind you that there is not any L shape in the Pray Codex. There is a pair of L+P. It is a significant difference. Now you get it or not yet?”
That, my friend, is ridiculous. This whole matter must be challenging your World View to the max, for you to put up such a silly objection.
“David Mo”The artist of the Pray Codex is particularly anarchic in adorning the sepulchre: two kinds of crosses, pyramidal forms, circles and red zigzags. I don’t think we ought to find a sense to this hotchpotch.
O/K/Unless we accept that the Pray Codex is derived from the Shroud of Turin -conclusion absolutely unacceptable by dogmatic sceptics.”
Thus surely should be rewritten as
David Mo. :The artist of the Pray Codex is particularly anarchic in adorning the sepulchre: two kinds of crosses, pyramidal forms, circles and red zigzags. I don’t think we ought to find a sense to this hotchpotch.
O.K. Unless we start off with the preconception that the Pray Codex is derived from the Shroud of Turin -a preconception absolutely unacceptable by dogmatic sceptics.
DaveMo and Charles: you wrote: “The artist of the Pray Codex is particularly anarchic in adorning the sepulchre”.
The iconosteganological truth is, to the uninitiated eye, the signs on the sarcophagus box & lid may look like adornement yet they are NOT AT ALL.
Who is starting with a preconception just because he has hot the foggiest notion of what medieval Benedictine (icono)steganology is all about?