Paulette commented:
The study is flawed. Ever worked as an EMS? On sweaty, grimy, warm skin someone’s blood will run every which way, even in nearly horizontally rivulets. It flows. It gushes. It spurts. It mixes with sweat. I’ve been sprayed with blood from flailing limbs. Put a few drops of blood on your arm and jerk it hard to mimic a spasm. You can never reproduce violent outdoor traumatic blood flow on a body in pain with plastic tubing, air conditioning, calm and shower fresh skin.
Mike “Like”’d. So do I.
This study is too simplistic and naive.
Garlaschelli’s reproduction of the shroud is simplistic and naive.
No more.
Just do the test: If the Shroud of Garlaschelli would be displayed in the Cathedral of Turin as the authentic burial cloth of Christ, how many people would trust this? Beside all those highly religious persons who fall easily into the “credulity” trap, I don’t think any intelligent person would believe for 2 seconds that this evident work of art would have any chances to be the authentic shroud of Jesus. This is the best test to do in order to judge the quality of the work, which obviously is poor (and especially when it comes to the reproduction of the bloodstains).
Note: This is true not only for the Shroud of Garlaschelli but for any other reproductions that have been proposed over the years and, again, this is especially true when it comes to the reproduction (or lack of reproduction to be precise) of the bloodstains…
Well, yes and no. As an EMS worker, Paulette’s experience could be very informative. This is one of those rather few occasions when the term ‘expert,’ in terms of having experience that others have not have, may be meaningful and valuable, and I would love to know more about Paulette’s experiences.
I quite understand that blood flows, gushes, squirts and sprays – but would that be from a living body with a pumping heart? Although blood in bulk can remain liquid for a while after death, it would not be expected to do a lot more than trickle (albeit copiously!) from, say, a spear wound in the side of the chest. In the case of puncture wounds in living people in general (and obviously I’m thinking specifically of a hand or wrist being fixed to a beam with a nail), how good is the implement at preventing blood loss while it is still in the wound? Those people who volunteer to be crucified every Easter in the Philippines or Mexico do not appear to bleed at all while they are being nailed, or while they are on the cross. I have not seen what happens when the nail is removed – being alive, I can imagine there is some blood loss then. But if the victim were dead, nearly all the blood in the arm would drain by gravitation, no? Also, volunteer crucifixees appear to keep quite still – perhaps the pain of being punctured is minimised like that. They certainly do not flail about or jerk or spasm. They are standing on a platform, so a hanging weight is not a problem, but some are nailed to it, so I can imagine there is a lot of pain in the feet as well as the hands.
Your experiences in this field would be most informative, I’m sure.
I’m not an expert. I mostly drove. EMS is mostly by the book stuff. It was many years ago but I remember that every bullet hole, every knife wound, every car wreck was different. I imagine that every crucifixion was different in more ways than we imagine. I would ask my students to list as many factors and variable as possible. Hammer forged spikes come to mind. Do they use those in Mexico? If you want an expert get a CSI with field and courtroom experience. G&B wouldn’t last three minutes against a good lawyer. Hugh, be the skeptic you really are. G&B are not doing good science and you know it.
I have found an image under :
https://ia701200.us.archive.org/30/items/CrucifixionInThePhilippines/DSCN5679.JPG
(and see also :
https://ia701200.us.archive.org/30/items/CrucifixionInThePhilippines/DSCN5681.JPG )
There is no blood flow …
Here another image without blood flow :
https://ia701200.us.archive.org/30/items/CrucifixionInThePhilippines/DSCN5703.JPG
What is your opinion ?
I think it’s due to the pressure of the nail in place. Once you remove the nail, then you should see an evident blood flow…
In my opinion it also depends on where you put this nail. See http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Circulatory_System_en.svg
…And the size of the nail. For all I know those mock crucifixions are all done under medical supervision and they avoid hitting major blood vessels and nerves in the process. Some of those people has been crucified >20times, the scars from the previous events used as a guide. It doesnt compare to what Jesus went through, It’s not an execution.
From HuffPo
Hey… You have an image on that comment. How did you do that??
Use an image anywhere on the internet. It can be within a document* or on one those free photo sharing sites. Get or copy the image URL, which begins with the letters “http” and ends with “jpg”, “gif” or “png”. Type the red part exactly as you see it below (but type it in black) Paste or type the image URL shown in blue between the two red quotation marks.
img src stands for image source. The less-than and greater-than symbols make it into something your browser understands; same with the slash. The quotation marks are important to delimit the image URL.
*Images in PDF files can be tricky, Sometimes you can extract them with the copy command (right click sort of stuff) and send them to Flickr, Facebook, etc. You can then include them in comments. I don’t know how to do that but that is why we have children. Please don’t ask for technical support above and beyond this because this is the extent of what I know about the subject.
Thanks Dan
All of the above, plus the consideration that the wounds may have been perturbed during the transport & preparation of the body. The unknown variables could be numerous, it’s not as simple as arm A vs. arm B
Mike, if you have an online image you’d like referenced, then all you have to do is to provide its URL for us to look it up ourselves (it avoids copyright issues as well). If you want to create your own image and upload it, try imgur.com, which is extremely easy, uploads anything you like and provides a URL which can be posted in a comment such as this. If you actually want an image to appear (like Dan’s above) then I guess it helps if it’s your own blog!
Thanks Hugh
I agree. A relatively thin nail through a hand is not, usually, a catastrophic injury. Painful, I’m sure, and there could be nerve damage and the danger of wrecking veins. There are side-show folks who pierce themselves to a similar degree.
When one knows the pain is temporary and the experience controlled there is none of the psychological trauma that a truly condemned person experiences. Look at professional wrestlers who have themselves thrown into barb wire, have staples fired into their flesh, or fall from great heights. They experience great pain but they maintain control of the situation, brutal though it be. Take those same wrestlers and have them experience this involuntarily, at the hands of a sadist, and they would know a very different level of trauma.
Roman crucifixion is not something any modern doctor would sign-off on for reenactment.
“When one knows the pain is temporary…” Who was this Jesus character again? Did he think his crucifixion was a miserable end to his worthless existence? Or not…
That’s the million dollar question isn’t it?
AS far as I can recall from anatomy if Dr Pierre barbet is right, assuming that the wrist nail pierced the palmar (volar) face of the wrist iabout the middle of the palmar crease, no major arterial vessel is damaged.
Actually,, radial artery,, ulnar artery and superficial palmar arch are spared from injury, meaning that no major arterial bleeding will occur.
Curiously, if nailing was at the palm in the intermetacarpal spaces,, small arterial vessels (common digital) could be damaged with bleeding ,but even so as it was previously asserted on this blog, Philippines crucifixion volunteers don’t show relevant hand bleeding
If we analyze left wrist exit nail wound as depicted on the Shroud image it seems it fits Dr. Barbet’s description of an area at the level of Destot’s anatomical space of the carpus (it’s a virtual space between te lunate, triquetrum capitatum and hamatum bones )
The nail didn’t damage major arterial vessels during his way through the wrist because on the dorsal aspect of the wrist there are no important arterial vessels either.
We can conclude that wrist hemorrage originates mainly from damage of the wrist network veins, and blood pouring from the wound had to be slow, but when the nail was removed there could be an increased transient bleeding ,,this time post mortem blood.
I utterly agree with Dr. Kelly Kearse and Paulette that many unknown factors like sweat, hair , abrasions etc. can modify the direction of blood trails on the forearms, nevertheless the blood flow we observe on the Shroud clearly indicates that blood moved proximally (from wrist to the elbows) so iit’s not unreasonable to conclude that it occured in a crucifixion position with arms forming an angle about 60 degrees with vertical line of gravity.
Dr. Gil Lavoie has done an extensive research on this issue ,where the important fact of the outside elbow stain is analyzed in the context.
regards
Antero de Frias Moreira
(Centro Português de Sindonologia)
Interesting. The blood supply to the hand does indeed avoid the centre of the wrist. What’s more, even in living people (me, as I’ve just tried it!) blood drains downwards from an elevated arm, even at 60 degrees, let alone vertically. I invite anybody to hold one hand out in a “crucifixion” position, for a minute or so, and then compare its colour with the other by holding them, palms down, side by side. In a dead body I submit that there would be very little blood left to do any bleeding at all in any direction. The hypothesis that these blood-flows were dribbled on later is gaining strength…
“Dribbled on later”….can you clarify the theory? Dribbled onto the cloth? Dribbled on to the body?
No, I can’t, unfortunately. If the ‘blood’ actually is, or contains, blood, and if, for a moment, I suppose that the shroud is genuine, then I’m inclined towards a ‘cleaning sponge’ hypothesis, whereby the body was wiped with a wet cloth, which, during subsequent handling, dribbled on the body.
Convincing? Not really. The ‘forger’ alternative is that the blood was pipetted onto the cloth over the image, but then the ‘Lavoie elbow drip’ becomes difficult to explain.
A lot more is needed to play the role of devil’s advocate in Shroud studies.
AS far as I can recall from anatomy if Dr Pierre barbet is right, assuming that the wrist nail pierced the palmar (volar) face of the wrist iabout the middle of the palmar crease, no major arterial vessel is damaged.
Now let’s compare with Zugibe hypothesis http://www.shroud.com/zugibe.htm
And BTW, in http://shroudstory.com/2014/04/06/more-on-the-y-from-stephen-jones/#comment-97130 I wrote:
“One more thing, te bloodmarks on the left arm are very close to the edge of it (see http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5695/drr7.jpg) they were most likely coming down from the upper side of the hand, the surface of which is more horizontal, then vertical, until spilling down the arms at 55-65° from the vertical.”
And also “Roman graffitis showing crucifixion:
http://ok.apologetyka.info/upload/ap_upload/articles/15/2013/06/rysunekxviii.jpg
Puozzola graffiti on the left, Alexamenos graffiti on the right. Those are definetly either †-shaped Roman cross (crux immissa) or a T-shaped cross (crux commissa) -and the angle is definetly less than 80° to the horizontal, perhaps 25-35°, as indicated by the Shroud.”
A quote from Zugibe:
http://www.shroud.com/zugibe.htm
The heart is beating and is constantly extruding blood through the wound and I assure the reader that the hand is heavily endowed with blood vessels in vast networks constantly feeding from major blood vessels on both sides of the hand. This would create a large blood smudge with blood all over the hand, wrist and down the arm. This is supported by British Home Office Pathologist James Cameron, a forensic pathologist who indicated that a nail passing through the area of the median nerve would most likely hit a main artery. Every movement on the cross would result in episodes of oozing and over several hours there would be a substantial blood collection.
“… most likely hit a main artery …” Very well. Which one?
“… most likely hit a main artery …” Very well. Which one?
“… most likely hit a main artery …” Very well. Which one?
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/9828/oq44.jpg
A beautifully clear image showing that the main arteries to the hand run on either side of the middle of the wrist, and would not be touched, let alone severed, by a nail through the carpals.
Dan, it doesn’t work for me.
Hugh: A beautifully clear image showing that the main arteries to the hand run on either side of the middle of the wrist, and would not be touched, let alone severed, by a nail through the carpals.
I recommend reading Zugibe’s article once again, then maybe the doubts will be explained.
ONE: The thumb (radial) side of the wrist i.e. the area of the wrist opposite Destot’s Area. The nail could pass through the radial (thumb) side of the wrist through a space created by four other carpal bones; the NAVICULAR, LUNATE, GREATER MULTANGULAR and CAPITATE bones, emerging where the Shroud depicts it. This is a very strong area and the trunk of the median nerve would most likely be damaged by this path.
TWO: The upper part of the palm of the hand … NOT THE MIDDLE OF THE PALM. This area is equally as sturdy as either Destot’s Space or the radial area indicated above and would emerge at the site depicted on the Shroud. This area is located as follows; touch your thumb to the tip of your little finger. A deep furrow called the thenar furrow is seen at the base of the bulky prominence extending from the base of the thumb. This area was first pointed out by Monsignor Alfonso Paleotto, Archbishop of Bologna, who accompanied St. Charles Borromeo to Turin in 1598. It may be of interest that he postulated that the nail would have entered the upper part of the palm obliquely, and pointing toward the arm, it would have emerged where the Shroud depicts it. It is of interest that Barbet severely criticized Paleotto’s hypothesis as “anatomically impossible.” Monsignor Paleotto was indeed correct. If a nail is driven into this furrow, a few centimeters from where the furrow begins at the wrist, with the point of the nail angled at ten to fifteen degrees toward the wrist and slightly toward the thumb, there is a natural inclination of the nail to an area created by the METACARPAL bone of the index finger and the CAPITATE and LESSER MULTANGULAR bones of the wrist which we have coined the “Z” area (Fig. 5)
This diagram shows even more clearly the proposed sites of nail-holes and the position of the main blood supply to the hands. http://i.imgur.com/Fy36t8B.png. No nail through the wrist will damage a major artery. Ironically, one through the palm of the hand might!
Barbet vs Zugibe 0:1
Well Hugh, what would you say for that:
http://tiny.pl/qnb8b
http://tiny.pl/qnb8z
I wouldn’t be so sure that hitting major blood vessel is so impossible.
Some interesting video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1hlFBMrlss
I estimate that those nails are about 4-5 mm in diameter (about 1/3 of the fingers or 1/4 of the thumb).For comparison the nail from Santa Croce in Jerusalem is claimed to be about 9 mm in diagonal, so twice as much.
Can you explain me clearly why the Barbet vs Zugibe hypothesis regarding the true position of the nail seems to be so important ?
For me the true question is about the blood imprints on the wrist and the forearms.
Some years ago, I discussed this question with Zugibe on SSG and I performed some experiments.
What is exactly the problem?
Hugh ?
Yes, Thibault. It is currently my contention that:
1) A nail through the wrist does not sever any major arteries. Whether we follow Barbet, Zugibe or any of the other hypotheses is irrelevant. (See my http://i.imgur.com/Fy36t8B.png above)
2) The presence of the nail embedded in the wound prevents bleeding, even when the heart is pumping. (See the crucifixion video above)
3) At any elevation, blood tends to drain from the arm, even when the heart is beating. (Hold one hand out at an upwards angle for a minute or two and then compare it with the other, as specified above)
4) After death, blood continues to drain from the arm under gravity, until it is substantially depleted.
5) After death, the cessation of the pumping heart, and the removal of the nail, there is insufficient blood in the hand to drip down the arm. (There may be sufficient blood to come out if the arm is held hand-downward, but that would not drip back up towards the elbow).
If the four statements above are accurate, then the apparent blood flows depicted on the shroud arms are inconsistent with a crucifixion. I would be interested to hear what experiments you carried out.
A few comments-in a real crucifixion, it is doubtful the executioners would be so gentle as those posing as villains in the video, the nails would be larger, and would surely be ponded in with much more force. Is it necessary a major artery be severed? What about a vein?
Could the body have been transported to the burial site with the patibulum still attached? If removed at the crucifixion site, rigor established, the body transported by grasping a portion of the arms, would this have an effect? Insufficient amounts of blood in the hand-how many mls do you estimate are represented on the wrist, forearm bloodstains? How were the nails removed, gently or with pressure-any affect on blood seepage? Washing, gentle cleansing of the body? Nail several persons with a forceful mallet through the wrists and crucify them, would they all bleed exactly the same way? I think such comparisons are difficult.
I agree with Hugh the blood could have been added. This not to imply at all that the shroud is not authentic.
I get the impression that Hugh is allowing his assumed skepticism to get the better of him. If an artery or vein was pierced then the arms would be covered in gore, and with three hours suspension the victim would have bled to death. Has Hugh ever attended an accident where a main blood vessel was severed or ever attempted to stem blood loss with a tourniquet? Perhaps he should leave his forensic analysis to those with some knowledge and experience of it. We’re seeing trickles of blood on the arms not extensive gore. Roman nails were either square or sometimes triangular section, and unlikely to create a seal at their edges so some leakage at least might be expected over a three hour period. I’d recommend a close re-reading of Barbet so he may become better informed.
If the Shroud is authentic, why would anyone bother adding blood flows that accurately matches gravity, assuming they had sufficient understanding to do so. The fellow in the video standing on a pedestal with near-horizontal arms, is hardly an accurate enactment.
For Kelly: It is Barbet’s contention that the patibulum was removed from the stipes, and the patibulum with body attached was then transported to the burial site where the nails would have been removed. Four men would have been sufficient to carry the patibulum with the body.
I’m sorry if I’m giving the impression that I’ve made up my mind about any of this. My first comment, above, was peppered with question marks, and I seem to have got more dogmatic as I’ve gone on! It would be really useful to have an A&E (ER in the US, I think) specialist who could comment on blood pressure to an elevated wound and the efficiency of an embedded ‘plug.’ An interesting, but caution advised not for the squeamish, video can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruG_XHWzRxY.
Hugh, I don’t get the elevated arm thing. I thought the nail went through the hands while Jesus was on the ground ( horizontal plain). I personally don’t believe the Nail should sever a main artery or vein to produce the blood on the shroud. Any cut to the skin ( let alone a 9mm diameter hole from one side to the other) would bleed. The skin is covered with blood capillaries and we see this bleeding with any unfortunate knife accident in the kitchen ( without severing a main vein or artery). Sorry, I couldn’t see the video you posted (I’am squeamish).
If blood came out of a wrist-wound while the arm was on the ground it still wouldn’t flow along the arm. The point about the plug is that on any first aid course, one is told never to try to extract an obect (such as broken glass or a bit of metal) from the wound, as while it is in place it prevents bloodloss by literally plugging the hole. Cutting yourself on a knife or protusion, or scraping your knee or bashing your head in a car crash all produce masses of blood, but driving a stake through yourself and leaving it there, perhaps counterintuitively, does not.
If blood came out of a wrist-wound while the arm was on the ground it still wouldn’t flow along the arm. The point about the plug is that on any first aid course, one is told never to try to extract an obect (such as broken glass or a bit of metal) from the wound, as while it is in place it prevents bloodloss by literally plugging the hole. Cutting yourself on a knife or protusion, or scraping your knee or bashing your head in a car crash all produce masses of blood, but driving a stake through yourself and leaving it there, perhaps counterintuitively, does not.
But Hugh,you must remember that victim is not in the static position on the cross, contrary he is constantly trembling with pain, getting convulsions shaking and disturbing the wound. You must take also in the account that he weights 70-80 kg, while hanging on the cross. Much of this weight is pressed on the nails. It is completely different situation than what you describe.
Perhaps the blood on the arms isn’t coming from the nail wounds. Perhaps the victim’s hands were cut from falling. Could blood be splattering onto the arms from the head (crowned with thorns) as the head lolls back and forth in pain? However, I don’t imagine the nail wounds would remain plugged for long, not with the spasms of the victim and gravity putting tearing force on the wound. Stick a nail in your thigh and it may not bleed much if you remain fairly calm and still. But yank back and forth on the nail while jumping up and down…
All reasonable questions and suggestions, I agree.
Just curious about this idea-this is a touch up here & there (human, animal blood?) or start to finish blood addition (none present on original cloth)? What is used for the application (brush, cloth, drip method, etc.)?