OK. a regular on the blog, asks:
I am currently writing an article for http://www.apologetyka.info/portal, trying to trace all the burial cloths of Jesus (or parts of them) which were venerated all along the world at various times. While checking the list of relics sent by Latin Emperor Baldwin II to king Louis IX in César Barta’s article (http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n56part5.pdf ), one thing made me curious. The list goes as follow:
1. – The crown of thorns as the most valuable
2. – A piece of the cross
3. – Blood of Christ
4. – The nappies of the infant Jesus
5. – Another piece of the cross
6. – Blood from a picture of Christ
7. – The chain
8. – Sacred cloth inserted in a picture (Mandylion)
9. – Stone from the tomb
10. – Milk of the Virgin Mary
11. – The spear
12. – A victorious cross (this is most probably reference to Titulus)
13. – The purple mantle
14. – The reed
15. – The sponge
16. – A part of the shroud (sudarii) in which Christ’s body was wrapped in
the sepulchre
17. – The towel used to dry the Apostles’ feet
18. – Moses’ rod
19. – A part of John the Baptist’s head
20. – St. Blas’ head
21. – St. Clement’s head
22. – St. Simeon’s head.Most of them are listed in other documents about relics in Constantinople. But what is:
6. – Blood from a picture of Christ ?
Can it have any links with the Shroud?
No, is the blood that flowed from an image of the crucifix in Beirut
Thanks.
The Beirut crucifix could have been actually la conservazione di una traccia del passagio della Sindone da Libano alla Siria, ad Edessa via Antiocha.della Sindone. It just cannot be totally ruled out.
BTW, contrary to a die-hard received idea, most it not all these relics were not destroyed at the French Revolution. They were simply buried and lost as the two individuals who buried them died before Le Concordat. The said relics STILL can be unearthed (hope they were buried in lead & brass receptacle(s) though). Anyone interested by funding an expedition (‘Quest for the Missing Sainte-Chapelle relics’) welcome.
Yes Max, I came to the same conclusion, when I realised that the Crown of Thorns somehow survived, and is presently in Notre Dame. So maybe they will resurface…. again…
O.K., the twisted circlet of rushes listed as ‘crown of thorns’ was one of the 3-4 Sainte-Chapelle relics that were NOT buried actually. All the 18-19 rest of them were safe guarded and buried by pious Christian hands.
Yes, all is “una traccia del passagio della Sindone” da ovunque a ovunque uno vuole.
…”uno vuole”… vedi Eusebio, Storia ecclesiastica, III, 5 + G. D. Mansi, Sacrorum Conciliorum nova et amplissima collectio, Florentiae 1759-98, vol. XII, 584a.
Max: “O.K., the twisted circlet of rushes listed as ‘crown of thorns’ was one of the 3-4 Sainte-Chapelle relics that were NOT buried actually. All the 18-19 rest of them were safe guarded and buried by pious Christian hands.”
The rescued items, based on Hesemann:
1. – The crown of thorns as the most valuable
5. – Another piece of the cross
and the nail, but strangely it is not on this list (in Constantinople there were two nails, according to Robert de Clari and others -one was sent to Siena one to Paris).
“They were simply buried and lost as the two individuals who buried them died before Le Concordat.”
Who were those two individuals? Do you have any reference to what actually happened in the Sainte Chapelle?
Actually, this is the result of my personal archivistic research. Hope you’ ll understand I will keep the two individuals’ names and relics’ main deposit whereabouts secret for a while…
O.K., the list you gave is not totally accurate. It does need a few corrections.
Max: “Actually, this is the result of my personal archivistic research. Hope you’ ll understand I will keep the two individuals’ names and relics’ main deposit whereabouts secret for a while…”
Hopefully not for a long while.
“O.K., the list you gave is not totally accurate. It does need a few corrections”.
Yes, but it is the list presented by Cesar Barta in his article. Can you give me more accurate list? I know for example that the purple mantle (or at least part of it) remained in Constantinople until 1453, when it was transferred to Georgia, then at the begining of 17th century captured by Persian Shah Abbas, who sent it as a diplomatic gift to Russia.
About 17-18 of them are still buried.
Re my Flash Illustratative Reply entitled
“Pray Hungarian MS folio 78r lower panel Visitatio at the Empty Tomb inks drawing:
MORE THAN MEETS THE NON-INITIATED EYE… (or an iconographic cryptanalysis),
I was very busy all these days and could just devote 3 sessions of a half-hour each. Actually, I do think I’ll need more than just 3-4 sessions to write away my reply to sceptics and arch-sceptics and prove beyond the shadow of a rational doubt the PHM-TS connection. 5 sessions of hours each should be o.k. Besides I have to make up a textile reduced model of the TS and shot photographs of it to make my crystal point clear…
Correction: the Holy Women Visitatio at the Empty Tomb
Maybe Veronica’s veil? (Odd he doesn’t mention this.)