“SEE HERE,” writes Ray Schneider in Political Brambles: The Shroud Challenge — Who Do Men Say That I Am?. The SEE HERE link takes you to the £20,000 challenge to Dawkins.
Ray then writes:
The Shroud of Turin is one of my personal research interests. One of the most difficult questions about the Shroud of Turin is "What exactly is it?" It contains a simply amazing image which turns out to behave like a photographic negative. That strange enough? But in addition the coloring that makes of the image appears to only exist in the first 200 to 300 nanometers of the tiny fibers that make up the threads. It’s been carbon dated to the 14th century but that doesn’t really mean it is from the 14th century only that the carbon date came out that way. At the time of the dating artists couldn’t even make perspective images. Cloth wrapping experiments have shown that it’s almost certainly the result of a cloth wrapped body but that doesn’t indicate how the image transferred to the cloth. The image is an action at a distance image and encodes three dimensional information.
It seems appropriate to reflect on this image of a scourged, blood crowned, nailed through the wrists and feet, lifted up and pierced crucified man as we begin Easter week. We live these nearly two thousand years later in a world no less conflicted and fraught with deception and human passions than that which existed in Roman dominated Jerusalem of the first century. Indeed, we live in a world that despite its technological marvels has actually forgotten much of the wisdom it once had and life is given over to materialist and sensualist pleasures. The Man from Galilee proclaimed himself Son of Man (a prophetic title), Messiah, Priest, and King. He was executed in the most barbarous way asking for forgiveness for those whose passion for power had done this to him and with a psalm on his lips. Pax vobiscum!
Although Catholic from birth, I do not think I have ever understood the Passion until a few years ago I saw the scourge marks on the Shroud of Turin. I felt such a surge of empathy for Him that has only grown as I viewed each revelation.
I believe that it was in Ian Wilson’s latest book there was a description of Barbet’s work in determining the process of how the nails were driven through the wrist and how excruciating the pain of that “minor” detail must have been as the nail enlarged the natural passage. And how much more excruciating that pain was than if a nail was driven through the palm as usually depicted. Whatever empathy I felt reading that was a gift of science. But whatever my empathy, I could never actually feel such pain.
But knowledge of the Shroud and what it reveals is a gift of Science. That some “scientists” still have eyes that do not see doesn’t detract one wit from the work of the scientists who have brought us this revelation. In my very first catechism lesson more than six decades ago, I was taught that we could never really understand God who was eternal. I quoted recently from Richard Wright’s Evolution of God. Wright is a professed agnostic but he ended his book describing the human understanding of God as being the merger of truth and love.
Not a bad parlay at all.
I think we need to consider the crucifixion more than we have. If the Shroud of Turin truly is the “Sign of Jonah” for this generation, then what message would that “sign” be trying to tell us?
To me, it means that we need to consider the true basis of our Christianity. Modern Christians have invented clever doctrines that allow us to be sub-standard disciples. The Shroud shames us into remembering the example Christ gave, and the example of the Apostles after Him. Early Christians laid the foundations of our faith in devotion, blood and forgiveness.
I have been collecting images of Christ’s life. Recently I put 700 pictures of the Passion in my Flickr account. Looking at so MANY pictures from that most Holy Week made a strong impact on me. Easter this year is so much more meaningful for me than ever before.
Christians really love the “pretty” images: the Good Shepherd and Jesus with the Children, and all the glowing Nativity pictures. But maybe we should spend more time looking at the Shroud instead. I think if we dwell on that, and what Christ’s Passion really means, we might live very differently.
“We live these nearly two thousand years later” This statement brings up an issue I’ve been contemplating lately…Has any real serious study gone into knowing exactly when it would be 2 mellennia from the date of the crucifixion? Given all factors can we know this date? or atleast a range of dates?
It’s been on my mind ‘strongly’ for some unknown reason lately, any info or links would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ron
Oh yes, the people who try to figure out the date for Christ’s return have got all kinds of info like that. You have to sort out the various calendars for one thing, because the Jewish calendar is different from our Roman Calendar system. And then one of the Emperors decided to coordinate everybody and they actually put an extra month in there somehow in order to get everybody on the same page. I can’t remember WHERE I read all this stuff: I was doing a lot of research on the Second Coming for awhile and those people are really INTO dates.
So was Sir Isaac Newton. He was a very religious man besides being a scientific genius. He was annoyed that people kept predicting the date for Christ’s return, and then it wouldn’t happen, and it kept the populace all stirred up. So he decided he was going to figure this out once and for ALL… and he determined that the world will not last beyond 2050. He really got into the math, using Daniel and Revelation to figure it out. His notes on this were recently discovered in the Smithsonian, tucked into one of Newton’s old books.
The Bible says that for the sake of the elect, God will shorten the days so I think it will be before that because I don’t want to wait that long!!
Anyway, it’s all on Google. Start doing searches and you’ll find alot of very interesting things. But you can find a lot of junk too because the weirdos really go for this stuff.
I already told you the most likely date for Yeshua’s death on the cross was April 7th 30CE (according to the Synoptics) and April 3rd 33CE according to John’s Gospel.
Corrction: “dateS”
These 2 dates are not mine. They are based on the Gospels and archaeoastronomical computer simulations.
Max. I am quite aware of these dates, but my question is what year will they convey a 2 millenium anniverary? Taking all factors into account, e.g; leap years and all other dating changes over the period…For instance take the date April 3, 33 as close as we can calculate what will be the 2000 year anniverary of that date? That is what I ask.
R
One of the most scholarly works I’ve read on Jesus of Nazareth is “A Marginal Jew – Rethinking the historical Jesus – Vol 1”; by John P Meier; Doubleday 1991. Meier is a highly respected Biblical scholar, and he cuts his sources to the very bone. I suggest you Google him to satisfy yourself about his reputation.
The discipline that Meier set for himself in this work, is to imagine a type of conclave whereby a Catholic, a Protestant, a Jew and an agnostic – all honest historians cognizant of first-century religious movements – were locked up in the bowels of Harvard Divinity School library, and not allowed to emerge until they had hammered out a consensus document on who Jesus of Nazareth was and what he intended. “A Marginal Jew” is what Meier thinks that document would reveal. Part of his agenda seems to be a reaction against the “Jesus Seminar” type of approach.
Some of the answers he comes up with might be hard for some conservative Christians to take. For example he asserts that Jesus was probably born in Nazareth rather than Bethlehem. He rejects most speculative assertions about Jesus life. One interesting conclusion is that he makes a decision to rely on John’s gospel to obtain a date for the crucifixion. Here are few of his summary extracts on Jesus’ birth and crucifixion, and other key dates:
“Jesus of Nazareth was born – most likely in Nazareth, not Bethlehem – ca. 7 or 6 BC, a few years before the death of King Herod the Great (4 BC), After an unexceptional upbringing in a pious family of Jewish peasants in Lower Galilee, he was attracted to the movement of John the Baptist, who began his ministry in the region of the Jordan Valley around the end of 27 AD or the beginning of 28. … ”
“In AD 30, while Jesus was in Jerusalem for the approaching feast of Passover, he apparently sensed that the increasing hostility between the temple authorities and himself was about to reach a climax. He celebrated a solemn farewell meal with his inner circle of disciples on Thursday evening, April 6 by our modern reckoning, and the beginning of the fourteenth of Nissan, the Day of Preparation for Passover, according to Jewish liturgical reckoning. Arrested in Gethsemane on the night of April 6-7, he was first examined by some Jewish officials (less likely by the whole Sanhedrin) and then handed over to Pilate early in the morning of Friday, April 7. Pilate quickly condemned him to death by crucifixion. After being scourged and mocked, Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem on the same day. He was dead by the evening of Friday, April 7, 30. He was about thirty-six years old. ”
On that basis, the bi-millenial of the crucifixion will occur on April 7 2030.
Much and all as I have considerable respect for the scientific work of Sir Isaac Newton, I would not set much store on his calculations for the end of the world. I would also not set much store on interpretations from the book of Revelations for the end-time either. Essentially the purpose of this Book was to sustain hope for the early persecuted church by providing an apocalyptic vision for them of the New Jersualem. There is too much analogy and symbolism for the numbers to be taken literally. Jesus himself said no-one knows when it will happen, only the Father.
If Max Patrick Hamon happens to read this, he may have his own particular comments about some of these aspects.
I disagree entirely that the book of Revelation was written mainly for the early church. It was been a source of hope for all generations of believers. Without the book of Revelation, how would we know that Jesus wins? Without it, we would think, as every miserable century crawls by, that Jesus has forgotten us. Without Revelation, how would we know the Vision of Jesus’ ultimate victory and display of immense power at the end of the world? How would we know that God will indeed bring every work into judgment as we stand in the fearsome throne room of the Almighty? The visuals in Revelation lift us up beyond THIS life and give us a glimpse of the Glory that is to come, as well as a better idea of how great the struggle with satan truly is. The rest of the New Testament is WIMPY compared to Revelation, which breathes the fire of judgment and the Glory of our Almighty God. Jesus was so easily beaten on Calvary, but it was by his own submission. Revelation shows us who Christ really is, and what a privilege it is to know so Great a Person.
One thing that was important to Jesus Christ, over and over again, was that we should BELIEVE. Read the Gospels with that ONE thought in mind, and pick up on it! He grieved when Mary failed to believe He could help Lazarus (who was VERY DEAD), but Martha still had a grain of Faith in her so he held her elbow, lead her up to the tomb of Lazarus and whispered to her, “If you believe, you will see the Glory of God.” And, Lazarus was raised from the dead, and apparently Martha played a part in that. **You never saw that in the scriptures, I bet.** Everybody remembers Martha for one thing only.
When Jesus visited the disciples in the upper room, He rebuked them because they did not believe when Mary Magdalene told them she had seen the Lord. It wasn’t Thomas only who was the Doubter! Jesus was constantly going after his disciples for their Unbelief, even after the resurrection!
I don’t think we can get solid answers out of the weird prophecies in Revelation, but the book says we get a blessing just for READING that book, so if you want a blessing today: GO AND READ IT. Even if I don’t understand it, the vivid word picture of a fire-breathing Christ knocking all the enemies FLAT with one BLAST is very hard to forget, and I totally LOVE IT.
Bethlehem? If the Bible says He was born in Bethlehem, and if the Old Testament prophecies said he was born in Bethlehem, then I guess I’m inclined to BELIEVE IT. Not because I’m cult-blind, but because I don’t see much point in what Mr. Meier has to say. Why would Herod kill all the babies in Bethlehem, if the Christ Child was actually born in Nazareth?
Our FAITH is in WHO we know, not what we know. Although the Bible is very helpful, the entire book can be as baffling as Revelation. It is the Holy Spirit who keeps us on track.
I agree that Sir Isaac Newton can’t be taken too literally but he WAS a respected scientist and mathematician who really dug around in Daniel & Revelation, and tried to understand it so it’s worth looking at. Mainly, I think it’s VERY interesting that ALL prophecies converge on this (current) time period so I think people would do well to be ready. The Bible says we can’t know the day or the hour, but Jesus also commanded his Disciples to be able to read the Signs of the Times and don’t be stupid about what’s obvious. (That’s my paraphrase.) Jesus wants EVERY generation to believe He is coming again when anyone least expects it: because we do live differently if we believe it.
Dear AnnieCee, I have just spent a full year with my Bible Study Group, studying each chapter of Reverlations, one per fortnight, and we’re now coming up to the home straight, so I think I know a little bit about Revelations by now, and there’s probably not a great deal you can tell me about it that I’m unlikely to know already. You’ll note that chapters 2 & 3 address the Book to seven significant churches in Asia Minor. Because of the symbolism of there being seven churches, the author probably does intend the Book for the entire church. But even in the 3rd c its canonicity was still being disputed until Athanasius in the 4th c when it was finally accepted.
My point in saying that the purpose of the book was to give hope to the early persecuted church, was not to limit its value to later generations, but to state that its purpose is not to set a literal calendar for the end time, as many sects and cults are prone to doing.
You may believe what you wish as to where Jesus may have been born, either Bethlehem or Nazareth. Both Luke and Matthew are both set on establishing that Jesus is the Messiah as foretold in the prophecies, and to this end they both have quite different stories to assert that he was born in Bethlehem. The only record of Herod’s slaughter of the Innocents is in Matthew and nowhere else. But there were several reprisals aganst rebellious Jews at this time. Matthew is concerned to establish Jesus as the new Moses, so he wants to bring him out of Egypt, but he needs a story to get him there first. Incidentally, Luke seems to know that Mary and Joseph’s home town is Nazareth, but Matthew apparently does not, but uses Archelaus’ crucifixion of thousands of rebels to justify their settling there.
I also happen to know quite a bit about Sir Isaac Newton. He was a misanthrope brought about by his mother having to abandon him to her parents when she remarried.
There were few other scientists that Sir Isaac hadn’t had several feuds and differences with. Although a great scientist himself, he was not all that pleasant a person to cross. In later llfe, he turned to various forms of mysticism, including various apocalyptic works.
The Seventh Day Adventist writer Ellen White thought that the Revelation to John was probably to encourage HIM (John) because he was the last of the Apostles and Christ had not yet returned although Jesus did emphasize “soon.” I thought that was an interesting “take” on it. I am not 7th Day Adventist, but I’ve read a lot of their prophecy books because they are really into it and they use scripture to back it up. But their legalistic tendencies are a little off-putting even though I can see they mean well.
I read an article yesterday, or part of it anyway, on CNN about the same subject you brought up: that the book of Revelation was written to encourage the early church. And Revelation is addressed to seven churches, so that’s nothing new actually. It seems to me that the PURPOSE in bringing it up in such a way is to DIMINISH it’s purpose for the current Church. And that’s where I get very annoyed.
Just because some people have made the serious Error of setting dates for Christ’s return, doesn’t mean we need to diminish any part of the Bible just to settle down the wackos.
I don’t agree with the silliness of setting dates or even approximate dates: in fact the Bible specifically warns against it so WHY do these fools try it over and over again? They all think they’ve got an exclusive on hearing from God, or at least they would like people to THINK they do.
There’s a long list of prophecies that seem to be in the process of being fulfilled now. One that I think is especially interesting: the Catholics have an ancient prophecy that lists our CURRENT Pope Benedict as the final Pope, with possibly an imposter coming after him. This “Benedictine” Pope will be martyred while in office, according to the prophecy. I think the Catholic prophecies are interesting even though I’m not Catholic, because it’s one more thing that points to THIS time and THIS era.
Meanwhile I’m going about my usual work but I’m keeping an ear open for trumpets just in case. And, like John the Baptist I think it’s important to prepare the Way of the Lord, if this is indeed the approximate time. Jesus wants us to BELIEVE Him, and so that’s what I am trying to do. I don’t want to be another Thomas, making excuses.
Yes, I know that Newton was a mystic. So was William Blake. These guys were a little weird in their religious views but their heart seemed to be in the right place. Besides, they were geniuses and geniuses are always a little weird.
It ought to obvious that the readers of this blog represent the diversity of the Christian community. There are profound differences. What brings us together is the Shroud of Turin.I hope we can respect each other even with our differences as to scripture and accept that there are differences.
“Biblical exegesis” is a fancy phrase for how you read and interpret the Bible. Many, many biblical scholars are attempting to cull from scripture the nub of reality because much of scripture is metaphor and allegory. Some like John Crosson tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater, particularly on the issue of the Resurrection, but still regard themselves as Christians, Catholics even. Pope Benedict when he was Cardinal Ratzinger described original sin as a great problem for the Church. He rather directly wrote of the origin of Genesis as the compendium of creation myths from other cultures that actually changed in the first milenium BCE and did not reach its current form until the Babylonian captivity. A Howard Professor has written that original sin is original selfishness. I buy that. What we struggle with is the selfish residue of evolution and what marks humanity in Teilhard’s view is when. alone among animals, it developed the awareness of self and introspection.
Fundamentalists may find these ideas a long way from their faith, but it is at its core a deeply understood Christianity.
We are not going to agree on theology and some may not even agree on the fact of evolution. Let’s concentrate on the Shroud and it’s message, the declaration of faith: Christ has died, Christ has risen. The third part, Christ will come again, is not a part of our debate for that coming may mean different things to different people. Let that be.
Original sin in (Wo)Man is made of 3 poisons: Ignorance, Selfishness and (material, physical, intellectual, spiritual) Pride.
Well, if you **Men** want to have a Guys-Only forum, why don’t you just SAY so. Max Patrick Hamon’s jab, if it truly is aimed at ME, is inexcusable and shameful. That’s not debate, it’s pure unfounded insult.
And one thing I don’t understand is why this new doctrine about the book of Revelation isn’t challenged. That’s twice in two days that I’ve bumped into it. All of you seem to be mad at me for challenging it. — SO, what you’re saying is you do NOT think the Book of Revelation is relevant for the modern Church and you agree with this new theory that it’s purpose ended in the First Century?
The Shroud has nothing to do with the Second Coming? If it truly is the “Sign of Jonah” then it most certainly does. And if the Shroud is the “Sign of Jonah” then maybe this Shroud blog is more for God’s purposes than you apparently understand or even care to realize.
Spiritual pride is the least known part of “original sin” in (Wo)Man.
AnnieCee, it REALLY was not aimed at you AT ALL! I just wanted to include both sides of a most divided (male & female) humanity seperated from its original Unity with the divine Presence.
How do you get that out of this conversation? That’s sort of a high-brow dismissal. Condescending, disapproving. I’ve seen plenty of THAT tactic: it’s a control trick, and it works pretty good in religious cults or atheist forums.
Something I said rubbed you the wrong way apparently.
AnnieCee,
It was just in reply/comment to John Klotz writing: “A Howard Professor has written that original sin is original selfishness. I buy that. What we struggle with is the selfish residue of evolution and what marks humanity in Teilhard’s view is when. alone among animals, it developed the awareness of self and introspection.”
The 3 poisons are the Buddhist equivalent to “original sin” in Christianity.
I think I originally came in when Ron [#3 comment] asked when would it be 2 millenia from the crucifixion. In #5 comment, my answer was April 7, 2030. But then I got side-tracked by a lot of other issues from AnnieCee, you know like how Adam blamed Eve.
I’ve Un-followed this blog now so y’all can relax. ‘Bye.
Annie,
Don’t go. The Genesis version of original sin was one the result of the patriarch centered pre-Christian society which survives to this day. Think Taliban. For his time, Jesus was a radical feminist. Think the Samaritan woman at the well. Think, above all, of Martha and Mary.
AnnieCe, please dont you mistake me with Daveb and stay!
Well I’m confused about what we’re talking about. But thank you.
So whats the consensus on the anniversary date of the crucifixion/ resurrection? LOL …will it be in our lifetimes?
Ron
Oh and sorry, I’m not thinking ‘second coming’ here, just curious has to what is presently calculated as the best possible date? …so I may correlate it with a trip to Jerusalem ;-)
Ron
He has already come in 1898.
Getting back to the original theme of Dan’s post I agree that the evidence of the Passion left upon the shroud is something worth meditating on for all Christians. It not only reflects the accuracy of the Gospels’ accounts but it also reflects the sinfulness that caused Christ’s suffering. Most importantly, it shows the length Jesus went to in His suffering to show us how much He loves us.
Looking at the wounds inflicted upon Him I imagine what it must have felt like, the excruciating pain and humiliation. It is truly humbling to know that He who made the Heavens and the Earth was willing to go through this just to show us how much He loves us. It is also very disheartening to reflect on the cruelty and hate humanity is capable of when it refuses to embrace the uncomfortable truth. This is the meaning of Original Sin.
Another thing I like to reflect on is that our current state of knowledge tells us that the universe is not infinite (John Klotz may agree with this point), it will most definitely end at some point and everything we know and see will cease to exist. Therefore, even if man should unlock the biological secret to perpetual life without aging no one will live forever, they will merely put off the day of reckoning. Our position is truly temporal in this realm. Jesus rescues us from that with the demonstration of Eternal Life through the Resurrection but He gets us there by also demonstrating that our death is also temporal. The shroud is the document of His death, it’s current emptiness begets the Hope of His Resurrection and with it our own invitation to Eternal Life.
“Our position is truly temporal in this realm. Jesus rescues us from that with the demonstration of Eternal Life through the Resurrection but He gets us there by also demonstrating that our death is also temporal. ***The shroud is the document of His death, it’s current emptiness begets the Hope of His Resurrection and with it our own invitation to Eternal Life.***”
Hey Chris, I love that last sentence of yours in #28. Is it yours or copyrighted? I’m going to have to use it myself sometime! Many thanks! daveb
It’s mine, Dave, but feel free to repeat it far and wide. The more of us who get the message the better off humanity is to greater glory of His Name.
Under the Shroud man beard in the area of the neck, Peter Soons found an oval-shaped object (a wooden sign?) of about 11.5 x 5 that most probably was hung around the neck of the crucifixion victim and containing three Hebrew letters translated by the consulted experts for Hebrew Palaeography as meaning “The Lamb [of PessaH]”.
Corrections: “by some scholars” (who were not experts for Hebrew Palaeography)
Actually, I am of a different opinion. I rather think it may be a pun on “Ha-Nostry” (“The Hidden [Prince]”, “The troglodyte”).
The pun in Hebrew being TSE’W (HA-NOTSRY), “Come out/forth-You will come out/forth (the Hidden Prince/The Troglodyte”)
Or put in other words “Come out you The HIdden!”
Or “Come out you The HiddenS!”
TSE’W HA-NOTSRYIM
TSE’ HA-NOTSRY, “Come out you the Hidden!”
This may be in reference to fighting nationalists from the troglodytic region of Galilee.