This past Saturday, Stephen Wagner, who is described at About.com as a paranormal researcher and author posted Why the Shroud of Turin is Fake in his role as a “Paranormal Phenomenon Guide” for the web publication. He seems to be a young Joe Nickell sort of fellow:
Lie on your back on a hard surface (such as the floor) as the figure is in the image, and just try to cover your privates with your hands. I am a person of average proportions and I had to stretch my arms with some effort to be able to barely cover them. Yet the figure in the shroud image seems to be accomplishing this with relaxed ease. The arms don’t appear to be stretched out at all.
Now just relax your arms to the floor, like a corpse, and see where your relaxed hands cross on your body. For me, they don’t cross at all. My fingertips barely cross around my navel – well above the private area. To be able to cross them at all in this position, I have to lift my arms somewhat off the floor, and they still to not reach the private area with any degree of relaxation. And no one is more relaxed than a corpse.
[ . . . ]
So just through observation and simple experimentation, I have to surmise that the Shroud of Turin is not an image miraculously created by the body of a crucified man, but an image painted by an artist who wanted to protect the modesty of his subject.
It amazes me how so many people come up with different ideas to disprove the shroud’s authenticity as though no one among the hundreds of researchers over the past century of study had never considered the idea before. But they have as this simple solution by Isabel Piczak, a noted artists and shroud researcher, demonstrates. She carefully plotted the position of the body from detailed measurements taken from the shroud. She then proved it with a life model.
Algunos escépticos deben tener un serio problema para alcanzarse los genitales estando tumbados……..lo que en determinados casos debe ser bastante frustrante.
Es lo más TONTO que se puede decir del Hombre de la Sábana, llevan años repitiéndolo pero lo CUENTAN MAL, no acaban de aprendérselo y lo REPITEN como loros.
La condición “sine qua non” para que FUNCIONE esa estupidez es que LOS CODOS NO SE DESPEGUEN DEL SUELO.
¡Ya que cuentan una estupidez, al menos que la cuenten bien!
“Cualquier persona que quiera simular la posición del supuesto “cadáver”, puede hacer lo siguiente: acostarse en el suelo boca arriba, dejar reposar los codos sobre el suelo, tomar una de las muñecas con la otra mano, y sin despegar los codos del suelo, tratar de ocultar los genitales… lograr esta posición es tan imposible como morderse el codo.” Lo refería en un deplorable artículo el escéptico colombiano Hernan del Toro en la revista “Pensar” n1, v 1 Enero-Marzo 2004.
Es obvio que si se INMOVILIZA la articulación del codo apretándolo contra el suelo no puede alcanzarse los genitales, ni el ombligo, ni la nariz, ni la boca, ni NADA.
Stephen Wagner, NO TE SUGESTIONES, eres normal y puedes alcanzar tus genitales perfectamente estando tumbado, eso si, cuando lo intentes no te empeñes en apretar los codos contra el suelo………
Carlos Otal
Google translation:
Some skeptics should have reached a serious problem for the genitals while lying …….. which in some cases must be quite frustrating.
It’s the dumbest thing one can say of the Man of the Shroud, but spent years repeating HAVE TROUBLE, not just learn it and repeat it like parrots.
The “sine qua non” to work that stupidity is that NO ELBOWS off the ground.
Since we have a stupid, unless you tell it well!
“Anyone who wants to simulate the position of the supposed” corpse “can do the following: lying on the floor face up, let it rest your elbows on the floor, take one wrist with the other hand, without taking off the elbows ground, trying to hide the genitals … to achieve this position is as impossible as biting the elbow. “The article referred to the skeptic a deplorable Colombian Hernan del Toro in the magazine “Think” n1, v 1 January-March 2004.
Obviously, if the elbow joint immobilized by squeezing the ground can not be achieved genitalia or navel, or nose, or mouth, or NADA.
Stephen Wagner, DO NOT SUGGESTIONS, you’re normal and you can achieve your genitals lying perfectly still, that if, when you try not insist on squeezing no elbows on the floor ………
The fellow claims to be of average proportions, but I think he must be deformed nevertheless. I suspect my arms are shorter than average, they’re certainly shorter than my wife’s, (but then she does a lot of hugging) and I can manage the position OK. I also suspect that the corpse would not have been lying flat. Rigor mortis would have set in (so much for being relaxed!) and this would have been from the crucified position, pretty much as demonstrated by the models above. Maybe Stephen Wagner has never attended the laying out of a corpse and so doesn’t know as much as he thinks he does. But Nicodemus and Joseph of Aramathea, being members of the Sanhedrin, would have understood the business well. “Painted by an artist” Ha! What does he know??
Dave, I believe “from close scrutiny of the body image and renditions as shown above” plus from measurements and angles taken by several scholistic studies, there IS slight deformation present; as the shoulders seem to have been dislocated when brought down in their rigor state, actually seeming to make the arms longer. Furthermore, taking in all aspects of the body posture; it shows a most typical position expected of one whom was crucified and entered rigor while still in the death position. One needs only draw a line horizontally across the rendition above and then turn the picture to the vertical to see this. It also shows details such as; there must have been a footrest used; showing from the angles of the feet, amongst other things. Anyways the position shown on the Shroud is easily attained if all aspects of the posture are recognised. Unfortunately many do not seem to have the capacity to see this.
Ron
I’m with you Dan, it baffles me also that people are STILL making idiotic claims as in the article above. It tells you one thing though; How little these people have actually studied the Shroud. Articles and the Internet are just full of idiotic comments and misinformed claims, all which could be properly disputted if even a smidgen of research was done….It comes down to one word; Ignorance.
Ron
Ron, Thanks for the comment on dislocating the shoulders when being brought down from the rigor mortis state, as it answers a common criticism that the arm images appear to be too long. Shoulder dislocation can happen fairly easily. I remember my poor old Dad (RIP) when in his 80s incurred a dislocated shoulder simply by slipping and falling while gardening; The surgeons were able to reset it right fairly easily This Stephen Wagner chap is evidently unaware that any laying out team needs some fairly vigorous action when working with a corpse in rigor mortis, and any talk of a corpse being relaxed is nonsense.
You are an idiot. Nobody’s arms would be able to stay in that position when dead unless they were glued there. Sure, you can get into a position that covers your genitals……when you are alive! and trying to do it!!! Don’t be dumb. And artists have proven they can re-create the image. Sorry, your Jesus was cool and had a nice message…but he was just a man!
jerome, before you go calling people idiots, First; have you ever heard of rigor-mortis?…NO then Do us and especially YOURSELF a favour; READ! There is a huge amount of information on the Shroud out there, SCIENTIFIC evidence written by dozens of forensic scientists, chemists, physicists etc; But also important is that you acknowledge the ‘credentions’ of the people writing whatever you read as ‘essential’ in your choice of reading! As an example; Don’t take the word of a ex-magician, ex-private-eye, literary scholar over the findings of a half dozen ‘qualified’ forensic scientists…get me here jerome?
Thanks,
R
Typo error above. ‘credentions’ should read as ‘CREDENTIALS’, my apologies.
R.