Paolo Di Lazzaro, chief researcher at the Excimer Laser laboratory of the Italian national institute ENEA, quoted in a story by Nick Squires of The Daily Telegraph (and the Montreal Gazette):
When one talks about a flash of light being able to colour a piece of linen in the same way as the shroud, discussion inevitably touches on things such as miracles and resurrection. But as scientists, we were concerned only with verifiable scientific processes.
We hope our results can open up a philosophical and theological debate but we will leave the conclusions to the experts, and ultimately to the conscience of individuals.
Before D’Lazzaro’s experiments, the most important difficulty that some researchers like Ray Rogers had against a radiation/energy field hypothesis was that in previous experiments the core of the coloured fibers were also affected and sort of burnt. In my opinion, D’Lazzaro´s main contribution is that he has achieved that with his 193nm radiation only the outer layers of the fibers are coloued like in the Shroud.
Before buying that conclusion, let’s wait for an INDFEPENDENT confirmation please.
OK.
However, in order to reproduce all the characteristics of the image on the Shroud he still has a long way ahead. I would say that his main challenges now would be to reproduce the 3D effect and achieve it by colouring different fractions of fibers by unit area and not by different colouring intensities of the fibers affected.
He obviously has got the full support of ENEA which for me seems highly surprising because very few research institutions in the world (or none at all! I can’t imagine the Max Planck institute acting like this) would accept to link so closely its scientific prestige (last year conference, this current report) with such a controversial issue like the Shroud, which after all, might well be a fake. Nevertheless, he has always followed a scientific methodology and has never used his scientific work to support statements (supernatural, resurrection…)belonging to other fields like Theology or Religion. One of the few.
This comment is interesting but don’t forget this ENEA is in Italy. The Shroud is in Italy. Fanti is in Italy. Italy is full of religious people (I could use another word but I want to stay polite)… So, it doesn’t surprise me that much. It’s the same thing with the fact that Fanti get big money from his university of Padoua to do a one year or more research plan on HIGHLY questionnable samples from the Shroud… I don’t think we could see things like that in many other countries than Italy.
For Positive FACTS about Christianity, including a Shroud link, pls visit:
http://napoleonlive.info/judas-the-galilean-and-his-unterbrink-books/
This comment is not surprising since I could see for a long time about the agenda behind this research. When a scientist wants to “open a philosophical and theological” debate, you can see the agenda right there. Don’t forget that M. Fanti is behind this research and we know what kind of motivation he has.
Actually Yannick, I don’t think it really matters if there was an ‘agenda’ behind the experiment and especially if it was just to open a debate. As there would be ‘undoubtably’ debate anyways from this type of research, one way or the other. Sometimes the reason behind such research makes no difference, what is important is that the research is done ‘truthfully’ and ‘accurately’…Also that it be scrutinized by other experts and hopefully before it goes public. But like many things, we have no control over such things. Furthermore from Gabriel’s last comment, I don’t see anyone, anytime soon trying to replicate Di Lazzaro’s experiment. Which is unfortunate.
Ron
For the independent confirmation thing, it’s the job of Di Lazarro and his team to do this. Rogers did it properly when he found out that the C14 sample he had wasn’t the same composition of the main part of the Shroud. He found John Brown of Georgia Tech and ask him to do a confirmation analysis, which he did succesfully. He also ask some of his colleagues at Los Alamos to do more testing to also see if they could confirmed (and maybe improve) his findings, which they did. Now, it’s time for Di Lazarro and his team to do the same and find an independent scientist that will be able to test their findings and see if they are correct and also see if there’s really a connexion to be made with the Shroud (a connexion which is not so evident than Di Lazarro and his team are thinking).
Ron, you wrote : what is important is that the research is done ‘truthfully’ and ‘accurately’.
I’m with you on that. But can this be applied to those experiments ? Since we know who’s behind, I have SERIOUS doubt. And the fact that they go on the media with “partial” results not confirmed by INDEPENDENT researchers tells you a lot about the agenda behind this kind of research and put SERIOUS doubt about the honesty of this research. In fact, all this media stuff seem to me like a propaganda and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I don’t think it’s the proper way to do science…
I agree with Yannick….partially. It is true that they are going to the media but before DiLazzaro has got a couple of publications in peer-reviewed JCR journals with his results. This means something, at least for me. For the good of his scientifc, career I hope that he and his team do not focus only on the Shroud. There are already too many researchers who have been burnt by this issue. In his favor, I would say that it seems that the very institution (ENEA) is the one which is taking this research to the media and perhaps he cannot avoid it but unfortunately we are seeing again that what could be a serious scientific effort, is being taken away from the scientific forums and brought -once again- to the media. If his team follows this path and becomes a new “Shroud star” is the end of their credibility and of their research, no matter how promising once could have looked like when it was nothing more (and nothing less) that a scientific paper in a JCR journal.
What I thought from the start when I eard that M. Fanti was behind this research is that it was agenda driven. What we see right now just confort me in my belief…
We’ll just have to wait and see IF they decide to have this research peer-reviewed properly. I hope for the sake of all future Shroud studies, they do so and PRONTO. Gabriel may be right in that Di Lazzaro didn’t have much of a choice in it’s being brought forth to the media in this fashion.
R
In life, we have always a choice my dear Ron ! ;-)
In the absence of a central institution which
i) keeps available samples (e.g. Sticky tapes) and grants access to them for any scientist and thus result replications are possible
ii)organizes a systematic research
we have a great number of people doing things by themselves with their own methods and materials circulating without any control or clear protocol (even in this blog we have seen an offer for exchanging some graphic material).
As a result of this, unfortunately, in most occasions the research discussions are taken to the media. I wish Dilazzaro could stop it at this point
And unfortunatelly, because of the things you just describe Gabriel, every research is always questionnable and can always be put into doubt. You’re right, a central institution must be the solution and the Vatican already possess this institution that could act like that : the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. But before they could do this, the Vatican have to be open to new direct researches on the Shroud. I don’t think we’ll see this soon. All the dust from 1988 and 2002 have not yet drop down. ;-)
LOOK AT THE HAIR. It is hanging straight down, which would only happen if the subject were STANDING UP when the image was taken. Look at anyone with long hair laying down and you will see the hair piled up on both sides of the head and neck and you will see their ears.
This man was standing up when this image was cast.
Clyde Billings
Have you considered that maybe his hair was saturated by blood at one point? and that he had a Sudarium wrapped around his head? With these two conditions, it would be reason enough for his hair to be the way it shows on the Shroud. Scenario; After the Sudarium had been placed on his head, (while still hanging on the cross) and his hair would be hanging down at the sides, as his head was tilted forward and to one side at the time. Wrapping the head would undoubtably hold and flatten his hair relatively close to the head. Then left like so, say a couple of hours. Thus the blood in the hair would dry quite completely leaving the hair in position and quite stiff, once the Sudarium would be pulled off, when in the tomb. Hense the hair the way it is depicted on the Shroud.
Blood left to dry in hair has basically the same result has using hair styling gel…
Think about it.
R
You are right Ron but the idea IS NOT FOM YOU. You just would not have found it by yourself as you imply in this post (“…Then left like so, say a couple of hours”).
Actually Max, I did figure this one by my own reasoning, as I had experienced something in my past. I am of course talking about the hair drying and stiffening into shape. Later after reading about the Sudarium, it also came to me that the sudarium wrapped around his head could be the cause the hair managed to stay straight and close about the head. Have you read of anyone else suggesting this? I haven’t….and if you have it would be a coincidence. Of course I don’t say that, that is exactly what happened, but, it is my proposal for such a scenario….I may be completely wrong!
As for the time the sudarium may have been on the head, yes I get that info from my Sudarium studies, and also from what scriptures tell us, as I’ve mentioned before.
R
Sorry, line above should read; I am of course talking about the hair drying and stiffening into shape due to the blood.
R
By the way Ron, had Rabbi Yeshua been left hanging on the cross with the headcap for two hours?
I don’t know Max, I think he was on the cross for six hours with the cap on his head ;-) … Now if your asking whether I think the cap was left on, once the Sudarium was placed on the head or not…I’m still pondering that in my mind. I, just thinking quickly, would assume the headcap was removed in order to place the Sudarium in place. But that is just conjecture. There was never any mention in the Sudarium studies of any blood born traces (impressions) of the cap on the cloth, or of any punctures from such. But they did find pollen in the area of the head, of the plant Gundelia tournefortii, but that could have been pollen impressed into the hair itself.
Why do you ask Max? Do you have a theory?
R
I am very happy to se you are more moderate and respectful in your posts, Ron.
Actually the sudarium (placed in a head-dress fahion) was fastened with a thorn.
A (most visible) puncture is reported on the Sdarium. Strange you have not seen it…
Ron you wrote: “Later after reading about the Sudarium, it also came to me that the sudarium wrapped around his head could be the cause the hair managed to stay straight and close about the head. Have you read of anyone else suggesting this? I haven’t….and if you have it would be a coincidence.”
Yes, I have. Then it must be a coincidence.
Actually, a couple of other causes might well account for the Shroud man hair to stay straight and close about the head (besides the pre-burial sudarium, a burial head-dress and/or a burial “jaw-box” (to make-up for a faulty head-dress).
Remember Ron, Rabbi Yeshua’s head (and body) was/were TIGHTLY WRAPPED INTO LINEN SHEETS (John 19:40).
…TIGHTLY WRAPPED or FASTENED…
The head and hand markings on both sides of the Shroud DO prove the head and body were more tightly wrapped or fastened than the rest of the corpse.
Correction: …DO prove the head and hands were more tightly wrapped or fastened….
To infer from John, that the Shroud man’s (1st) burial was not completed IS PURE SPECULATION, MERE WORD TWISTING & SHEER IGNORANCE OF BOTH THE JUDEAN BURIAL CUSTOM of the SECOND TEMPLE PERIOD and THE ACTUAL BURIAL TIME FRAME.