imageRich Savage wants to debate with Shroud of Turin detractors. He has been in communications with me. He has done a lot of work. He wants our help. He has sent this letter to me and asked me to post it:

Triggered by the article entitled, “An invitation to discuss the Shroud of Turin…,” back on 7/26, I had asked Dan to be our spokesperson in the scheme introduced below. I hadn’t really expected that he would have the time — but as we say in NY regarding our lottery, “Hey, you never know!”

Unfortunately, I was right — however, Dan did offer to help us set up a blog for this purpose.

1. Here’s the idea

1.1. It would be very good to convince ‘the world’ that the Shroud probably is authentic.

1.2. (It would also be very good to show up our notable detractors very publically – generally, they deserve it.)

1.3. To do this, however, we can’t just present our side to the public, then their side — and then, why their side is wrong. We need to let them present their own side to the public, and tell the public why they think that our side is wrong. We would then need to respond to their claims, and they to ours. Etc. Etc.

1.4. In other words, we need to have public debate with these detractors.

1.5. But then, we also need to win.

1.6. But then, if we can have actually effective public debate with these guys, winning should be a cinch…

1.7. But then, public debate is almost never effective (“sideshow” is the word that comes to mind)!

1.8. But then, I’ve been studying this human problem with effective debate for over 40 years (off and on) and now think that I know how to fix it.

1.9. As an introduction, my alleged solution is

1.9.1. written,

1.9.2. real-time,

1.9.3. on-line,

1.9.4. systematic and,

1.9.5. Unhurried (patience might be the critical virtue here).

1.10.And further, I think that we followers of Dan’s blog have more than enough relevant knowledge and talent to easily win any actually effective debate with any of Dan’s detractors…

2. So,

2.1. If anyone is interested, please let me know. My email address is, my stage name is Jabba, and my real name is Richard Savage (“Rich” is fine.)

2.2. If those interested end up thinking we can do it, we will give it a try.

2.3. We’ll have to work out the teamwork as we go…

2.4. If we get that far, we’ll need an official spokesperson, and I’d be happy to do that. But then, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone else could do it better – so, if anyone else becomes interested in that job, just let me know and we can settle this democratically…

2.5. Also, we’ll need a website or blog. I do have a website, but then: it is singularly unpopular; I’m a total klutz at running it; and I’m not sure that my web program (Dream Weaver – CS4) is up to the task anyway. But again, Dan has offered to help us with a blog…

2.6. Left to me, we’d first approach Skinny and Bearded with our proposal (though, there might be much better targets).

2.7. If they’re not interested, we could try CSI, or Joe Nickell specifically — or, whomever.

2.8. To see my model for “actually effective debate,” please go to

2.9. To see that I’m not just a kook, you can check out my very brief autobiography at

2.10.But then, for some reason, I really do like numbers…

Rich Savage (Jabba)

I will help Rich set up a debate blog. That is easy. I think the hard part, perhaps the near-impossible part, will be to find a worthy opponent who will stick around. I tried one time with a zealous Dawkins fan who expressed interest in debating about the shroud. He quit as soon as I put up some facts. The subject was boring, he said. There was my attempt to engage Kyle Hill. Kyle is smart and it would make for an interesting debate opponent and perhaps Rich can get him to debate. As for the people who do the YouTube “show,” Skinny and Bearded, who challenged me, they seem to have no interest in doing research. I can’t imagine debating them.

If you wish to join Rich or help him, please contact him. You can do so through his email address or by comment here. As I said, I will help Rich get going. I will help him set it up. No need for Dream Weaver or any software.