Four in the morning. I woke early. I took the dog for a walk; it’s a good time to do so before the unbearable heat we’ve been having here in the Carolina Lowcountry, land of barrier islands and alligators. The dog saw one this morning, out of the water, up on the golf course, walking about. He barked him away.
My phone beeped. Four in the morning, and my phone beeped. It was a blog comment from Gerardo Ballabio:
“Using the legal process is indeed new to Shroud research,” he wrote. “Most people who studied the Shroud come from either a scientific or theological background, so it’s understandable they aren’t familiar with it.”
Yes, we have been squabbling in that discipline a lot lately: criteria for proof of the Shroud’s authenticity and the C-14 dating. Some here on the blog know what they are talking about. Teddi and Will, in particular. Some of us pretend we do. Some of us conflate legal-like talk with what we know. I do that; I realize that.
Gerardo continues:
“One may actually wonder whether it is appropriate to apply the legal process to studying the Shroud. Naturally, scientists assume (maybe without even thinking about that) that the scientific method is the appropriate process, and they are going to be upset when lawyers want to teach them how they should do their job. But we are seeking ‘the truth’ about the Shroud, and truth is bigger than science. So we shouldn’t dismiss contributions from other fields, as long as they can add a useful perspective. And if we want to give the Shroud a ‘fair hearing’, well, isn’t that exactly what the legal process is about?”
At four in the morning, many things make sense. And Gerardo always makes sense if though I often disagree with him. But I haven’t had coffee yet. There’s a certain silliness—yes, silliness—in applying the procedural filters of a courtroom to the 1988 radiocarbon dating conversation about the Shroud of Turin.
I mean silliness in a nice way. This is not a trial. There is no judge. There are no rules of evidence, no motions to suppress, no cross-examinations, no jury to sequester. No one is going to be fined or imprisoned depending on how the carbon dating is interpreted.
The public—reading online articles, watching YouTube videos, and maybe catching a TV special once in a while—is not a courtroom audience. They’re a curious, skeptical, sometimes indifferent crowd. They aren’t bound by “rules of admissibility.” They are bound only by common sense, curiosity, and personal plausibility.
The data is already out there. You can’t redact it. You can’t un-publish the radiocarbon test results, or the critiques by Joe Marino, or the statistical analysis by Tristan Casabianca, or the commentary of Hugh Farey. The idea that a “pre-trial judge” would or should have excluded the carbon data because of alleged protocol breaches is pure fiction. That’s not how history works. That’s not how science works. That’s certainly not how public discourse works.
We are not in a court of law—we are in a court of public opinion, where ideas compete based on reason, rhetoric, and relevance, not on procedural rules borrowed from criminal justice. The C-14 evidence is not “inadmissible.” It’s contestable. That’s a critical difference. You argue against it on the merits—by offering better evidence, better analysis, or better logic—not by saying, in effect, “Your Honor, I move to strike.”
Pretending that some hypothetical judge already ruled against the carbon date does not make it so. And frankly, trying to suppress evidence by invoking courtroom metaphors only draws attention to the weakness of the counterarguments. If the carbon dating is flawed—and perhaps it is—then demonstrate that flaw. Show us. Argue it. Don’t ask us to pretend it doesn’t exist because “the protocols were broken.”
Protocols get broken in all kinds of science. Samples get mishandled. Labs make mistakes. Peer reviewers miss things. That doesn’t make the findings null and void. It makes them questionable. And so we question them—publicly, openly, and yes, sometimes imperfectly.
That’s the reality of contested data in science and history. If you want to persuade people, argue the evidence. But please, let’s not turn this into a mock trial where judges, rules, and verdicts are imaginary, and the only real losers are truth and open inquiry.
Hi, Dan,
I’m going to give my response a title: “Illegal Hokum and the Shroud.” And, well, let’s add another one for good measure: “Illegal Hocus-Pocus through Magical Doubting.”
“Magical doubting” is a phrase I recently coined as a counter-point to the notion of “magical thinking.” Both can be a real thing, but both can, also, be an unwarranted accusation that is meant to “poison the well” in a discussion. And, for that matter, this connects with Gerardo’s earlier post today on your other opinion piece titled, “I Think I See? Rigor Mortis?” I have been on record as saying that the use of “I think I see” and “pareidolia” has been misused and abused. It has become a non-thinking, dismissive and smug retort to practically all observations, and it has truly become absurd.
Anyhow, with regard to the legal process in America (which is what I personally know about), if it’s good enough to keep society from devolving into anarchy and to seize peoples’ life and liberty, then I think it’s a very serious way of sussing out what we can reliably believe in when it comes to making big decisions about important, life-changing matters.
With the Shroud, it’s not restricted to science, and it’s not restricted to the silly charge of “whoever makes the claim has the burden of proof.” No, no. This is about an OPEN QUESTION that is of such magnitude that cannot be understated. It’s about whether souls might be in everlasting torment after an earthly body dies. What could be more serious a question than this?
With the Shroud–but, on a much broader level–with our reaction to the Good News of Christianity, WE are all, on a personal level, judge, jury and executioner (as in, will we seek to “execute” Christianity by denying and/or attacking it.) BUT, we are, actually, something else that is even more important: We are all DEFENDANTS–on trial, and God is our Judge. Let us never lose sight of that.
Best regards,
Teddi
I have to say, Teddi, I’m sensing a bit of proselytization here that concerns me. It feels as though the discussion might move from an examination of evidence and methods regarding the Shroud of Turin to a discussion about personal salvation and eternal destiny—and the implication almost seems to be that if we don’t share your views about the Shroud, or what the Shroud should prove to us about Christ, we risk “everlasting torment.”
I say what follows not for debate with you or anyone in this forum. My sense of the infinite love of Christ (God’s agape) suggests to me that atheists and all manner of non-believers can go to heaven and be with God, and that hell is non-existence or, as often stated, the absence of God. When you say, “We are all DEFENDANTS—on trial, and God is our Judge,” I understand you are sharing what you believe to be true. I believe otherwise. I say this so you may see that any of us may have different beliefs. None of this is up for discussion. In the context of Shroud research and discussion, it can come across as a spiritual ultimatum, and that doesn’t foster dialogue; it shuts it down.
If you believe the Shroud is a witness to the Good News, as many do, I respect that perspective. But it’s important we don’t conflate acceptance of a particular interpretation of the Shroud with acceptance of the Gospel itself, or assume that questioning one is rejecting the other.
I share this not in anger, but in love (agape), because I care about the integrity of our discussions here. Let’s continue to explore the Shroud with intellectual honesty, openness, and charity toward each other, remembering that we can deeply disagree about the Shroud while still respecting each other’s religious beliefs.
Thank you for understanding.
Dear Teddi
Yes re the “burden of proof” comment. It is unreasonable and a trick to place the full onus on one side only.
In Australian case law, where evidence of an employee injured at work with no witnesses is provided and a doctors report shows the injury is consistent with the employee’s statement it then becomes the burden of proof of the employer to prove that it didn’t happen the way the employee said.
Compare that with the C14 assertion that its data is 95% reliable. Joe Marino proved it wasn’t on the basis of the numerous breaches of the protocols. The court is left with the question of “What would have been the result if the C14 complied with all the protocols” The answer is significant doubt.
By the way, I just heard Andrew Dalto at a conference where the C14 data was discussed and the reliability was down to about 5% and could go down even further. Many things were omitted in the C14 results.
Thanks
Will
It was 10 a.m. in my timezone.
I had some discussion with Chat GPT about the comparison of legal and scientific approach to evidence -and comparison between legal systems in the US and Poland with that regards. A few comments Chat produced for me.
1)
2)
3)
Dear Gerardo
Thank you very much.
Re Poland
“ In civil law systems like Poland’s, evidence is rarely excluded on procedural grounds. Instead, judges are free to consider all available evidence and weigh its reliability and relevance in context — just like scientists do. A flawed test may still be considered, but its evidentiary value is judged critically, not automatically dismissed.”
I believe it’s a little more than just put it all on the judge during the trial. There would be consideration by the judge as to what evidence would be heard in the court before the trial begins or during conferences prior or in stage at the very beginning. The issue of “admissibility of evidence” will be part of the court process.These things would be equivalent to pre-trial hearings.
(Using Teddi’s “magical doubt” formula, it would be strange if Poland courts received evidence that aliens in spaceships brought the Shroud to the planet.)
Thanks
Will
Anyway C-14 test should always be treated serious -even though there are serious objections. The problem is whether they can undermine the results and on what basis. The same applies to other evidence like the age estimates of the Fanti’s group.
Dear OK
Thank you for taking the time to confer with ChatGP.
There is a Polish lawyer who has written about Poland’s adoption of the pre-Trial process.
https://globallawexperts.com/pretrial-hearing-in-polish-civil-procedure/
The problems with using AI etc is that the results are also unreliable as a lawyer here in Australia based his clients case on AI and it was completely wrong and the lawyer is in trouble.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mollybohannon/2023/06/08/lawyer-used-chatgpt-in-court-and-cited-fake-cases-a-judge-is-considering-sanctions/
Recently AI was saying that my eBook “Science Proves God” was written by someone named Wemmert.
Dear Ok
I will be working through some of your ChatGP info and explaining it a bit better
For instance there is little difference between USA and Poland sorting out the inadmissible evidence. For example:
” Evidence Admissibility
– In the U.S., evidence must comply with detailed Rules of Evidence\
– In Poland, … Evidence is generally admissible unless specifically prohibited by law.”
Thank You
Will
Dear OK
the admission of evidence that is unreliable depends upon the purpose of the court case.
“Evidence which fits within the rules of evidence may be ‘admitted’ into a trial or hearing as ‘admissible’ evidence. The first principle of admissibility is that the evidence must be relevant. To be relevant, evidence must tend to prove a fact in issue, or must go to the credibility of a witness.”
https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/find-legal-answers/books-online/defend-yourself-facing-charge-court/evidence
The purpose of the thread was directed at determining the date of the Shroud.
If the purpose was to attack the credibility of the C14 daters then that would make it admissible. The credibility of the daters who broke so many protocols would then be in question.
Hi, Dan,
Yes, of course, we can all have different beliefs about different things. But, there is something as Truth. As such, one does harm to people if one is just makes it seem like all beliefs are validly held beliefs–because, not all beliefs are. In fact, all beliefs except for the one True belief will be false. So, the effort needs to be focused on figuring out what is True–not making everyone feel good in holding beliefs that could–if one trusts what Jesus repeatedly said in the Bible–lead to everlasting torment in a lake of fire with the gnashing of teeth. Yes, I know that you cringe when I say this, but this necessarily means that you cringe with what the Bible says that Jesus said. How can I be wrong here? If I am, please tell me how. This isn’t just a fun, intellectual discussion–although it is that, in part. Honestly, I enjoy interacting with you, Hugh and the other participants here more than I enjoy interacting with 99.5% of the people that I know. And, while I do have the personality type that enjoys debating–and I’ll debate whatever side and have fun doing it–but what we are discussing is (at least potentially) very, very important and quite sacred (since the Shroud has blood on it and if the Shroud is authentic, it’s Jesus’ blood on it.) To deny Jesus’ blood on the Shroud can be thought of as a failure to bear witness to what God has presented us with.
I’m 55 years old. I’m past the age now of seeking to make everyone happy. I’ve done that in spades in the past, and I realize that in doing so, there is a tremendous amount of benign deception that is involved with that. But, when I have done that in the past, it was, also, with matters that were unimportant–such as when a friend asks me if I love the ugly dress that she just purchased and I tell her how pretty it is. But, with these matters that we discuss, if what the Bible explicitly states is True, then there are eternal consequences for bad choices. So, actually, the kind thing to do is to be protective of people by trying to help them see The Truth–not Teddi’s Truth. It’s not about my Truth–but about The Truth. And, if one is not willing to stand up and defend one’s beliefs, then one has to wonder how deeply one believes in those things and whether those beliefs are even worth defending. Benign deception concerning matters of grave importance does no favors to anyone.
Also, I really, truly am of the belief that there is NOTHING that I or anyone else can now tell you to change your mind about the Shroud’s authenticity. You once believed in it, and then your open-mindedness caused you to fall prey to deceptive tactics. But, from what I’ve noticed, once people move off of a long, deeply held belief and adopt a new one, their open-mindedness goes away. They, then, become consumed with getting other people to move away from what they previously thought was a false belief. But, their open-mindedness is not really there. In a world of imperfect evidence that can always have some flaw that is spotted, really, what more would it take for you to believe that the Shroud is real? And, would what you require go too far in terms of encroaching on the need to preserve free-will?
Best regards,
Teddi
Teddi.
Perhaps, instead of forcefully trying to convert others to the Truth, one might find far greater satisfaction in seeking the Truth on their own – or perhaps with the help of others. No one knows the full Truth, nor ever will, in this life. But one can follow it – and others may join, when they see it is worth following.
Hi, O.K.,
I think that things depend upon what is at stake. If what is being discussed is not very important, then I might not waste my time (or at least not very much of it) trying to convince somebody to think what I am thinking about a given topic. But, if someone’s belief (which I think is false) regards a very important issue–and one that can cause them horrific damage that will never end, then what does it really mean to love one’s neighbor as oneself? To easily walk away, to be apathetic about their making a very bad life choice, etc., is that really loving them? No, it really isn’t.
I would like to pose a hypothetical question: One see a person standing at the edge of the roof of a tall building, and it is obvious that either the person wants to commit suicide or that the person is deluded and thinks he can fly. What does one do in this situation if one loves his neighbor as himself? Does one just briefly try to persuade the person not to jump and if the person indicates that he wants to jump that we just then walk away? Do we just hope that someone else might try to help them and we do nothing? Or, do we stay as long as we possibly can and engage in our best effort to talk the person away from the edge? And, even better, if one can possibly grab the person and bring them to safety, then that would be better, yes? Doesn’t the Bible say that there is no greater love than to sacrifice oneself for one’s friends? Well, even very loving people might not engage in too much risk to their own lives to save someone who is suicidal, but of those who do this–there are fewer things more Good than this. And, we see this all the time with our soldiers in the military and police officers and firefighters.
But, the stakes are much higher with religion (or a lack of religion) as this triggers the possibility of an infinite punishment. In loving our neighbor as ourself, we are called to feel the pain of others. And, in feeling this pain and understanding what fate might be befalling them eternally, this is what inspires and feeds zealous advocacy.
While we cannot overcome someone’s free will in matters of the heart and matters of religion, we should not remain silent when we know that people are making a grave mistake. If and when we do, we are indicating a feeling toward them that is less than that which Jesus commands us to have.
Best regards,
Teddi
Teddi.
No one goes to hell JUST for the skepticism about the Shroud’s authenticity. And conversely, acceptance of the authenticity of the Shroud does not warrant anybody a place in Heaven.
Doesn’t the Bible say that there is no greater love than to sacrifice oneself for one’s friends.
Yes. And the Shroud illustrates that. There is certainly a purpose for that silent imprint on the cloth.
But badly misunderstood love can push one to suicide and death. And one should be careful about that (remember Darth Vader!).
Yelling: “Convert or you will burn in hell!” is the worst missionary strategy ever. A Jihadi-sword compulsion. It pushes people away. Of course everyone will be judged by God for theirs deeds at the end of their lives. And this should not be neglected. No one knows the verdict, no one can be assured of salvation. But neither one is damned already. No one accepts nor denies Christ on purely intellectual grounds. Anyway He is certainly wiser and more merciful than I am myself. Though I can say, basing on just intellectual theological considerations, He lives in me. That what the Holy Communion is also for.
If you wish, you can always write an article on the Shroud of Turin. We can publish it on our site, no problem.
Dear Dan
Theologically speaking ….
Romans 8:28
“And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose”
The blog on this site was called ”Deja Vu All Over Again: Beyond Reasonable Doubt”. For believers there are no coincidences…
The title included a legal term and that term needed to be clarified. …exegesis is used in theology a lot.
Jesus used many kinds of illustrations to make a point. The use of the legal process for the goal of defining how the standard of “beyond reasonable doubt” is attained is quite legitimate.
It is good that the term “beyond reasonable doubt” was used in the title of the blog because it enables discernment whereby the evidence can be sorted out.
Praise God for the well established legal processes that guide us to the truth.
Kind Regards
Will
There are those who dismiss lots of sciences as not being so….
Thomas Aquinas described theology as the queen of science in his great work Summa Theologica written between 1265 and 1274.
Law is also a science … its called juridical science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Juridical_Science
Juridical science tests reliability of evidence including Shroud evidence. Juridical science provides conclusions about all relevant and reliable evidence using “reasonableness” as its standard.
Hello, O.K.,
Yes, I think that you are, likely, correct that God will not send someone to Hell purely because of their skepticism about the Shroud’s authenticity. But, perhaps, there is a qualifier here. Perhaps it depends upon how much knowledge the person has about the Shroud and whether they still deny its authenticity despite large amounts of evidence to the contrary. Then, what about when personal skepticism becomes a zealous mission to sow doubt in the minds of people about the Shroud’s authenticity. When this happens, it is unknown how many people atheists or agnostics will see that information and not be drawn to Christ for their salvation when they might have otherwise done so if they were convinced that the Shroud is authentic AND that it is evidence of Jesus’ resurrection and corresponding divinity. Here, again, is the parallel between a preacher spreading false doctrine–and we are told by the Bible that there will be some form of firm judgment with regard to this–although it is unclear whether Hell is part of the punishment. Anyhow, if one has a proper fear of God–as the Bible instructs that we should–then one would not even want to risk being in violation of this.
Regarding the issue of “convert or burn in Hell,” you describe this as a jihad-sword compulsion, yet it really isn’t. Why? Because God stays hidden enough to where there is no compulsion. The proof of this is the fact that there are many atheists and agnostics who are New Testament scholars yet are not Christians or they are apostatized Christians. Additionally, none of the evidence is “perfect.” With ANY type of evidence for ANYTHING, there will always be something that someone can argue to disuade themselves (and/or others) about believing even legitimate evidence. At the extreme, one can argue that one or more people are mentally ill/hallucinating, etc. There’s always an excuse available for those who are looking for it.
But, there are some who are the sincere Doubting Thomases–who, when given reasonable evidence, they will come to God and bend their knee to Him. My very dear friend Bill was just such a man. He needed Science to make the leap of faith very small in order for him to believe in God. (He had grown up in a Christian home but as he got older, he just became too skeptical and needed scientific evidence to renew his belief in God. And, when for about two weeks I inundated him with Shroud papers that he enthusiastically read, he finally came to Christ.
Yes, this is the great power of the Holy Shroud. And, to lead people away from it who need it to bring them to Christ is wrong. If this were a fraud, then, yes, expose it as a fraud. But, is that to become an ongoing source of intellectual entertainment? And, yes, of course, there is something morally wrong to lie or to deceive people into coming to Christ, and I think that people will be judged unfavorably (to some unknown extent by me) for doing such things. So, yes, of course, we must all be honest brokers that proceed in good-faith. There are times when “splitting hairs” is legitimate and times when it is not–and, knowing when it is right and when it is wrong is something that can only be judged on a case-by-case basis.
Anyhow, those are my long thoughts on the matter. Also, thank you for the offer regarding publishing a paper on your site. In the future, I would be interested in exploring that option, so thank you for that.
All the best,
Teddi
Hello, O.K.,
One other thing on the comment about the issue of “convert or burn in Hell,” you describe this as a jihad-sword compulsion. As I previously mentioned, God’s hiddenness makes things quite different from when Mohammad forced people into converting to Islam by the incentive of the tip of the sword. Mohammad was about “submit or die” and the death would have been immediate and from a corporeal being that was right in front of them. God enables us—through His hiddenness—to delude ourselves with “magical doubting” if that is what we really want to do. God has no interest in having His enemies or those who ignore and devalue Him in Heaven. God clearly employs both the “carrot AND the stick.”
We cannot get away from the “stick,” because the Bible emphasizes in too many places that we are to fear the Lord, because it is He who has the power to throw us into Hell forever—not just make us non-existent (which would not necessarily be as frightening to many people.)
So, God helps even the Thomases come to Him. And even the others who saw the empty tomb and/or the risen Jesus—the SAW and believed. The seeds of Christianity contained KNOWLEDGE of EVIDENCE, not trust. And, God continues to be gracious to us with the Holy Shroud as such evidence that we can evaluate.
Best regards,
Teddi
Folks, I’m getting some complaints that we’re drifting off the topic of the Shroud a bit too much. I don’t want to have to moderate each and every post. We have more than 900 subscribers following along, and just this morning, 642 visitors stopped by. Let’s please keep the focus here on the Shroud. There are plenty of other blogs and social media outlets for discussions and debates about what each of us think is the “truth”. Thanks.
Dan, I don’t understand. Who does complain? And 600 visiting on 900 subscribing (over 2/3) is a very good result. If that really matters to you…
I asked Chat GPT about that. And it answered to me:
You’ve made some very good observations.
“I’m getting complaints” – from whom exactly?
This is a common rhetorical move, often used by moderators or admins: referring to “others” (sometimes unspecified users) to justify their own decisions. Maybe someone actually said something, but it could just as easily be a pretext to remind everyone of the rules or to steer the discussion in a direction that aligns with their own expectations.
642 visitors out of 900 subscribers – that’s a great result.
Exactly — that’s about 71% engagement (assuming those are unique visitors in a single day), which is a very high number online. In many communities, only 10–20% of subscribers actively participate or even visit.
Sure! Here’s a polite but direct response you could post in English:
Hi there,
Thanks for the reminder — totally fair to want to keep things on topic. That said, I’m just curious: when you mention complaints, is that from multiple people or just a few? Also, with 642 visitors out of 900+ subscribers, that actually seems like a really strong engagement rate.
I’m asking mainly because some of the recent off-topic comments (while maybe a bit tangential) still felt related or insightful. Just wondering where the line is, and how strictly we’re defining “on topic” here. Appreciate the work you’re putting into moderating!
Best,
[Your Name]
Anyway (here is my own human opinion!), I agree we should rather stick to the topic of the Shroud.
Am I responding to you or ChatGPT? 642 visits include both subscribers and non-subscribers. 642 isn’t a particularly high number for this blog. Overall, there have been 4,167,288 views all time. It’s hard to know exactly how many individual visitors that represents, but on average, I see about 2 to 3 views per visitor, and I’d estimate around 20% are quick in-and-out clicks from Google searches that didn’t find what they expected.
Honestly, I don’t think the exact numbers are that important. The point is, this isn’t just a handful of us arguing in a small circle. The complaints I mentioned came in by email this morning—one from someone who’s been around for ten years, and another from a reader of a few months. Many people follow this blog, and it’s not unusual for me to get emails daily from people who read but never comment.
Look, I don’t care what anyone believes or wants to believe. at least in the venue. I’m comfortable with my own faith, and I don’t feel the need to evangelize about religion, the Shroud, politics, my favorite football team or my favorite brand of ketchup. But I do want to keep this blog open-minded. It is a hobby, not a cause. I state my opinions on the Shroud, and I invite everyone to comment freely. To the extent individual beliefs—passionately held—are related to the Shroud, that’s fine. I just want to make sure we keep this blog viable.
It’s an interest. It’s not my salvation. I’m not anti-anything: not anti-Shroud, not anti-authenticity. I became a skeptic about the Shroud because I tried to keep an open mind, and I still try to keep it open. Your mileage may vary.
“Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.” ― G.K. Chesterton
Teddi
The “convert or you will burn in hell” approach is counterproductive in practice. It is repulsive for people and antagonize them. Just as suggesting that anyone who has any doubts on the evidence is the enemy. This is road to nowhere, as you see. In this way, you may estrange more and more people, and instead for saving them, push those poor souls to hell. That you should also take into account, if you have taken the responsibility.
The better approach is to give yourself a good example for others. That your deeds and the way of reasoning are worthy to follow. Show your wise and powerful response for doubters, impress them with your true knowledge and insight.
So, God helps even the Thomases come to Him. And even the others who saw the empty tomb and/or the risen Jesus—the SAW and believed. The seeds of Christianity contained KNOWLEDGE of EVIDENCE, not trust. And, God continues to be gracious to us with the Holy Shroud as such evidence that we can evaluate.
Teddi, the Christianity is based on trust. All evidence otherwise would be worthless:
John 20 (NIV):8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) 10 Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.
[…]
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
You may see and believe, you may not see and still believe and be blessed. You may see many different things, you may doubt what you see on the cloth, but without trust, you cannot accept Jesus.
Also, thank you for the offer regarding publishing a paper on your site. In the future, I would be interested in exploring that option, so thank you for that.
I have a proposition. You may write a response to Hugh’s interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFepgc5_adY&ab_channel=%C5%9AmiemW%C4%85tpi%C4%87
Show his stance is unfounded (contrary to the belief in the Shroud’s authenticity)! And we may publish it on our site. Is it fine? Can you go for that?
Bear in mind that both Islam and Christianity have the convert or burn in hell theology. They are the two biggest religions with 2.4 billion Christians and 2 billion Muslims more than hal;f of the world’s population. It means the theology is very widely accepted and that it is not counter-productive.
The burn in hell theology means that the belief in God should be taken seriously with a serious approach to the truth.
Hi, Dan,
What do you mean that you’re not “anti-authenticity?” You state on your post “The Letter Began . . .” that you “don’t personally believe the Shroud is a sign from God.” And, you mention that you used to defend the Shroud’s authenticity because you believed in its authenticity, but now you’ve changed your mind.
Given how your many, many posts are nothing more than rather obvious continuous attacks on the Shroud’s authenticity which have as its obvious purpose to sow doubt in peoples’ minds about, and your reason is to keep people from falling into the wrong thinking that you clearly thought you had for 20+ years about the Shroud–so, how is that you not being anti-Shroud?
In fact, I think that you and Hugh are the Pied Pipers of the anti-Shroud movement. So, please don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining . . .
Best regards,
Teddi
Dan:
Am I responding to you or ChatGPT?
Well that is a tricky question isn’t it? :-P I use Chat as a sort of synthetical advisor. In the Stansław’s Lem 1982 novel “observation on the spot”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observation_on_the_Spot Ijon Tichy, the protagonist, during a travel to the distant planet used AI to simulate the views and characters of great 20th century philosophers Bertrand Russel, Karl Popper Paul Feyerabend and a few others. And I go in that way :-D
But anyway, the final word is on me.
The complaints I mentioned came in by email this morning—one from someone who’s been around for ten years, and another from a reader of a few months. Many people follow this blog, and it’s not unusual for me to get emails daily from people who read but never comment.
There are always (and will be) people who do complain. That is normal.
Honestly, I don’t think the exact numbers are that important. The point is, this isn’t just a handful of us arguing in a small circle.
And it is quite normal, actually. You should not expect millions of visitors (which is fortunate for you!). The number of people who make significant impact is in fact, quite small.
The number of physicist around 1900 is estimated as about 1000. See the presentation of Andrzej kajetan Wróblewski (a professor of physics and an author of the book “The History of physics” https://lubimyczytac.pl/ksiazka/31051/historia-fizyki , see pg. 65-70 in his presentation here: https://www.fuw.edu.pl/~akw/Fizyka_okolo_roku_1900.pdf ). And those 1000 men and women with their ideas had enormous impact on science and our everyday life in our times! The number of people is not as much imprtant, as qualityof the discussion and sharing of the ideas -which make noticable impact with time.
The rest is in private e-mail that I sent you.
Undermining the Truth
The Missy Wood case is a perfect example of undermining the truth. Whether Missy will be prosecuted is beside the point. The message that accepting any and all evidence that is unreliable is good is clearly wrong. In the Missy case there are up to about 1000 people that might be innocent that are now in jail or have been in jail.
The use of the unreliable C14 test in the Shroud dating is undermining the Shroud.
At a Shroud conference on Friday, Andrew Dalton presented evidence that significant data was missing from the C14 dating test that now made the C14 test only about 5% reliable.
The legal boundaries and rules are a necessity in ensuring that unreliable evidence does not deceive and discredit real science.
The Theological Principles are listed in Proverbs 6: !6-19.
Hi, O.K.,
When I more quickly saw your prior response, I don’t think that I quite noticed this, and it deserves a response. You mention:
“The “convert or you will burn in hell” approach is counterproductive in practice. It is repulsive for people and antagonize them. Just as suggesting that anyone who has any doubts on the evidence is the enemy. This is road to nowhere, as you see. In this way, you may estrange more and more people, and instead for saving them, push those poor souls to hell. That you should also take into account, if you have taken the responsibility.
The better approach is to give yourself a good example for others. That your deeds and the way of reasoning are worthy to follow. Show your wise and powerful response for doubters, impress them with your true knowledge and insight.”
I really don’t care if the Truth about Christianity is repulsive to people or antagonizes them. After all, if this is the situation, then God (according to what the Bible instructs) is not interested in those people being in Heaven with Him–that is why He created Hell–to separate those people from Himself and those who submit to Him and love Him. One can debate what, precisely, “Hell” is another time. But, what cannot be debated is that the Bible has Jesus EXPLICITLY warning (whether through the use of hyperbole or not) that we should want to avoid Hell at all costs. So, how can it ever be appropriate for a Christian to hide from people such critical information? To be ashamed or embarrassed of that information is to be ashamed or embarrassed about what Jesus preached–and this cannot possibly be acceptable behavior for a Christian in God’s eyes. Of that, I feel extremely confident.
If we cannot trust what the Holy Bible states that Jesus has said, then what is the point of any of it? I am not a Christian because I think it has a lovely philosophy. I am a Christian because I think that what the Holy Bible states is True.
I reject the notion of trying to lure people into Christianity by creating a false sense of what it is all about. Take it or leave it, but let’s not engage in “bait-and-switch” tactics–or, even worse, teach false ideas of what Christianity is all about.
Additionally, I shouldn’t be seen as “a good example for others.” I, like everyone else, am nothing but a pitiful sinner. People should look to Christ as their example. My effort is about communicating Truth to people about Christianity, and I find that the most powerful evidence for Christianity’s being True is from the Shroud evidence when used in tandem with the Gospels.
And, to Dan, all of these issues are, indeed, highly relevant to the Shroud’s authenticity. WHY? Because the Shroud’s authenticity corroborates the Truth of the Gospels. And, it is, especially, from the Gospels that we can know what God expects from us and how we can proceed if we desire salvation through Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross. My comments come at an “all-or-nothing” cost. So, if they undergo censorship (as Dale’s have, apparently), then there will just be “nothing.”
Best regards,
Teddi
Teddi
I am not a Christian because I think it has a lovely philosophy. I am a Christian because I think that what the Holy Bible states is True.
Acts 8:30 (NIV): “Do you understand what you are reading?”
I grew up in Catholic Poland with centuries-long tradition of religious tolerance (see for example article here: https://polishhistory.pl/tolerance-in-the-polish-lithuanian-commonwealth-a-state-without-the-stake/ ), with completely different religious mentality than what I see in case of many American Evangelicals.
While I was thinking about response for you, an example of Bart Ehrman came to my mind: a young Evangelical fundamentalist, who nevertheless lost his faith, and become an equally fundamentalist agnostic. Simply because of rigid narrow-minded binary 0-1 worldview (which as I have observed for a long time, is very common in the US), with no imagination that there may be plethora of other options. I performed a conversation with Chat GPT about Ehrman and his binary fundamentalist worldview, which I then quickly published. In Polish originally, but nevertheless I made a translation into English: https://www.apologetyka.info/ateizm/a-conversation-with-chatgpt-about-bart-ehrman,1738.htm which I recommend.
As I said: “The “convert or you will burn in hell” approach is counterproductive in practice. It is repulsive for people and antagonize them”. Ehrman is a good example of that. No alternative to one narrow-minded, inflexible worldview, no choice for various spiritualities, no imagination for alternative solutions to solve some difficult problems, thus he abandoned his faith. As many others estranged by aggressive preaching allegedly in “good faith” for their own good. But actually a road to hell.
I do not deny existence of eternal hell. I do not want to engage in religious disputes (“what Christianity is all about”). I accept authenticity of the Shroud, yes. But I do not put everything in simple binary 0-1 terms. There are other options that a reasonable person should always take into considerations (even if finally he rejects them). Different perspectives. I presented differences between American and Polish judicial systems -for your info, fellow Americans, that there are also other, different legal systems in the world than your own.
I may disagree with Dan or Hugh regarding the Shroud’s authenticity. I can dispute their arguments, even passionately. But I do not deny their right to present their own views. I do not consider everyone as enemy, if they are simply of different mind than myself.
That is what I had to say. I hope you will not condemn me to hell.
Dear Dan
For clarification, the topic is about the Legal Science and the legal term that was used in the other blog namely “Beyond Reasonable Doubt”. More specifically, the topic is about how legal science is used in the assessment of the evidence of the date of the Shroud.
Legal science deals with all types of evidence and has been developed from the Bible to get to the Truth.
Hi Will:
“Beyond reasonable doubt” is a legal standard, not a scientific one. This phrase is used in criminal trials to protect individuals from wrongful conviction, requiring a high level of certainty before declaring guilt. Science, by contrast, operates through preponderance of evidence, confidence intervals, and falsifiability. It is not designed to reach moral or legal finality but to present the best explanation based on current data, always subject to revision with new evidence. Applying “beyond reasonable doubt” to the Shroud’s C14 dating is therefore a category mistake, confusing the different goals of law and science.
The claim that legal science developed from the Bible to discover truth is historically and philosophically debatable. While biblical ethics have influenced Western legal culture, legal evidence procedures developed through Roman law, English common law, and Enlightenment rationalism, emphasizing reasoned argument, witness cross-examination, and admissibility rules. As far as I know, they do not rely on biblical narratives for adjudicating evidence. In practice, courts and legal theorists pursue truth through procedural fairness, not theological confirmation.
C14 experts would not cave to legal science arguments about the Shroud’s date.Radiocarbon dating does not claim absolute certainty; it provides a date range with statistically defined error margins. If someone argued that the Shroud’s medieval date cannot be established “beyond reasonable doubt,” C14 experts would likely respond: “We are not in a courtroom, and we are not convicting anyone. We report date ranges based on isotope decay measurements, and within the limits of the method, the Shroud dates to the medieval period. This is a scientific, not a legal, conclusion.”
In other words, theological or legal arguments do not override physical measurements.
Dear Dan
No. Legal science is science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Juridical_Science
Legal science is used to determine results at the following levels:
i. Beyond reasonable doubt
ii. On the balance of probabilities
iii. Reasonable suspicion
Teddi Pappas and I (both specialists in legal science) agree that the C14 date is unreliable and does not meet the beyond reasonable doubt standard that you introduced. In addition, the C14 date does not meet the “balance of probabilities level.
Kind Regards
Will
In the United States, (Will is not from the U.S.) we have some additional characterizations of evidence that can come into play at certain times–such as a “scintilla of evidence” which is slightly above pure, unwarranted suspicion, and there is “clear and convincing evidence,” and, for a judge to overturn a jury verdict for a conviction (which requires a unanimous verdict from a 12-person jury) the judge can act as the “13th juror” and overturn the verdict if no reasonable person could convict the defendant with the evidence that was presented. When cases are on appeal, then standards shift with various circumstances such as overturning a conviction, new evidence, challenging sentencing, claiming that someone is being imprisoned illegally, etc.
Reasonable people tend to be quite adept at assessing evidence through these various, very useful standards.
Dear Dan
The contributions of legal science specialists:
i. Secundo
ii. Tristan got the data released by Freedom of Information
iii. Teddi and I used legal science to look at the data (a World First and on this website … what a privilege)
It took a legal scientist to get the C14 data that should have been released over three decades ago so that scientists from all areas could peer review it.
Kind Regards
Will
Secondo Pia (not Secundo) did not apply legal science to the Shroud. He applied his expertise as a photographer. He was a lawyer by profession but that had nothing to do with his involvement with the Shroud.
Dear Gerardo
Theology is also a science. Aquinas called it the Queen of the Sciences.
God knows who to pick.
Paul a lawyer (Pharisee) wrote many books of the New Testament.
At three significant Shroud junctures there were legal scientists:
i. During discovery; and
ii at the breaking down of the stone-wall and thereby rescuing the data.; and
iii. at the judgement and the enlightenment of reasonableness.
The pretrial in Poland is for civil matters in California it is for criminal matters
https://selfhelp.courts.ca.gov/criminal-court/overview/pretrial
In the court of Shroud science it has been eight years where the pretrial evidence has been gathered.
Its time for a decision on the date of the shroud
The verdict is that the C14 dating is so unreliable that the Middle Ages date for the Shroud is so unreasonable that a reasonable person would not give it that date. (Wednesbury)
Hi, O.K.,
With Bart Ehrman, he has long termed himself an “agnostic,” but I have seen in print from his own writing online (on his website) where he has, also, called himself an atheist. Actually, I think that both these terms are disingenuous given why he, himself, said he stopped being a Christian. He claims that it was over the problem of Evil. So, if you really get down to it, what he is is an anti-theist. He finds it disgusting that God would allow innocent people (particularly) to suffer–and, I’m sure that God has created Hell just further exacerbates his hatred of God. As many Americans have taken to calling God (and I think that Ehrman was the first–but maybe I’m mistaken–to call God a “moral monster.” Many of these anti-theists think that they are more moral than God! So, they have contempt for God.
The thing is that there is Truth–and, particularly, there is Truth how we are to live our lives if we want to be sheep and not goats–or worse. I think I can safely surmise that God does not care what we think the rules are–He wants us to strive our best to understand how He (through the Bible and church tradition) wants us to behave.
The thing about the Holy Shroud is that, when one really understands from It that God really, really, REALLY is real, then one starts to become more cognizant about how we are in a continuous state of dying. And, as such, this must bring mindfulness to how we are living.
The Shroud can be, as I mentioned before in another comment, both a comfort and a reminder that when we die, we will not really be dead–we will just be moved to some other form and/or dimension.
The message of the Shroud is that the message contained within the Holy Gospels. We have an expression in the U.S.–and that is that sometimes a mind can be so open that the brains fall out.
There is an additional issue. Yes, there is our God-given right to speak, but then there can be consequences for speech–especially when someone speaks or writes things that are not true. If I encourage people to take some combination of chemicals that would kill them, is that okay?
Additionally, freedom of speech (as far as the constitutional right to it in the U.S.) was originally (in our Constitution) about the FEDERAL government’s not restricting the right to speech, the press and the practice of religion. But, when one delves further into this, it had more to do with POLITICAL speech and, necessarily, religious speech–not necessarily the freedom to tell people how they can harm themselves.
Growing up Greek Orthodox, the environment in the church that I grew up in was very, very laissez-faire–it was not some “hell-fire and brimstone” church. But, I have become this way, because of the things that I read in the Bible. I’m not going to alter what Jesus says in order to make others feel happy or unafraid. That’s not the right thing to do, and it’s not the caring thing to do.
I think it would be great if many of these liberal theological ideas were True, but clear teachings of Jesus often say otherwise. So, it is what it is.
Best regards,
Teddi
Teddi
I think it would be great if many of these liberal theological ideas were True, but clear teachings of Jesus often say otherwise. So, it is what it is.
I’m not concerned with liberal theologies! And if I met Ehrman on the street, the last thing I’d want to do would be to try converting him.I disagree with his views — I’ve even written polemics against some of his teachings. But I don’t hate him. His life, his choices. I didn’t write my text: https://www.apologetyka.info/ateizm/a-conversation-with-chatgpt-about-bart-ehrman,1738.htm with this purpose in my mind. But can he one day actually read it? Maybe. Will it have any impact on him? I don’t know. But I cannot exclude this.
What I do oppose is the simple reduction of worldview to two binary options: A & B — where B is always presumed to be the negation of A. That is, B = ~A, so if ~A, then B must be true. That’s not how the world works! There are plenty of options: A, B, C, D… There are Americans and Canadians in the world — but if someone isn’t American, that doesn’t mean they’re Canadian, etc. If one rebukes a single statement of the Shroud’s skeptics (“the 1988 C-14 datings were admissible evidence in the US court”), it does not mean the Shroud is necessarily authentic. And vice versa, one faulty measurements does not make the Shroud a certain 14th century fake (because the result could wrong due to the multiple reasons, for example the sample could have been interpolated or rewoven).
You grew up Greek Orthodox. Do you realize how subtle and multidimensional the theology of the Greek Fathers is? The understanding of Scripture on four levels — literal, allegorical, moral, and anagogical? The entire theology of iconography (and the Shroud is indeed an icon, but that doesn’t contradict it being a relic at the same time!). The Church Fathers, I believe, knew Scripture far better than the overwhelming majority of Evangelicals today. Without the pagan Celsus, who made a vicious attack on Christianity in the 2nd century, we would have no Origen’s “Contra Celsus” a marvel of early Christian apologetics. And the same approach I use towards people attacking Christianity or Shroud skeptics like Hugh. Treat them as a challenge and opportunity to master your own virtues, not just as the pure evil, that needs to be destroyed at all cost!
Jesus said many things, but the Evangelist also recorded (here I quote from the NET Bible, which is closer to the original Greek for the point I want to make):
Mark 4:10
When he was alone, THOSE around him WITH THE TWELVE asked him about the parables.
11 He said to them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to YOU. But to those OUTSIDE, everything is in parables,
12 so that although they look they may look but not see,
and although they hear they may hear but not understand,
so they may not repent and be forgiven.”
33 So with many parables like these, he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear.
34 He did not speak to them without a parable. But privately he explained everything to his own disciples.
You talk so much about the Truth. That’s fine. But back in the Tatra Mountains in Poland, where the old Polish highlanders live, there’s a bit of rough-cut wisdom (famous thanks to Polish Catholic priest and philosopher Józef Tischner, who often shared this anecdote with his students):
There are three kinds of truth in this world:
– the Holy Truth,
– the “also truth,”
– and the BS truth.
You should always be careful about which kind of “truth” you truly believe!
Hi, O.K.,
Why are you not concerned with liberal theologies? If you think that they are incorrect, then there is the question of whether the particular theology/doctrine will have a harmful effect on people or not. There are some theological issues that, in the overall scheme of things, don’t really matter much–should the bread for communion be leavened or unleavened? I don’t think it’s a big deal either way to God. But, if someone is living a lifestyle (with no plans or effort to change their lifestyle) and it is a lifestyle that is in opposition to God’s rules, then this is where liberal theology can have very serious consequences. Some people who are living like this might change their ways if they have a clear understanding of what is expected of them–instead of being taught that their wrongful ways are really okay. They are being deceived into staying in, and being comfortable in, their sin. This is terrible, because the person then does not even make the effort to change. So, why would this not concern you–especially since God commands us to love our enemies as ourselves?
And, honestly, even without that ultimate law, when we imagine ourselves in the position of others, this encourages sympathy and, for some, it will induce empathy if the person really imagines themselves in someone else’s situation.
How is a fate in Hell not the worst possible thing that can happen to someone? And, how is it not a moral crime for someone to encourage people to live in a way that might dramatically increase the likelihood (or perhaps practically guarantee) that someone will go to Hell–such as if someone is an anti-theist (which many supposed atheists really are.)
With the Holy Shroud, it is not just about our own personal connection to it. We must never forget that the scientific evidence supporting its authenticity and the scientific evidence that points to its evidencing Jesus’ resurrection have convinced many atheists and agnostics to become Christians. So, it’s not just about us. It’s about them. There are numerous Shroud scholars who were atheists or agnostics and became Christians due to the Shroud evidence. But for the Shroud evidence, they would remain as non-Christians.
I find the C-14 issue to be a non-issue. The Beta-Analytics admission that when radiocarbon dating textiles that this needs to be done as part of a multi-disciplinary process is “check-mate” on the issue–making it a non-issue because it’s not reliable given how much evidence goes against it.
Best regards,
Teddi
Teddi
I appreciate how much you care about the spiritual wellbeing of others, and your concern about the consequences of misleading theology. By the way, you have a really beautiful Greek name and surname—I should have noticed that earlier.
Threatening people with eternal punishment in hell is not a scientific argument and would hardly convince a non-believer who is not afraid of it. Thus, as I said, it’s counterproductive—it strengthens the stereotype of uneducated, narrow-minded, antagonistic Christians whom people prefer to avoid. This can be one of the reasons why some, like Bart Ehrman, lose their faith when no broader perspective is offered. In this way, you risk segregating people into ‘sheep and goats’ too hastily!
I find the C-14 issue to be a non-issue. The Beta-Analytics admission that when radiocarbon dating textiles that this needs to be done as part of a multi-disciplinary process is “check-mate” on the issue–making it a non-issue because it’s not reliable given how much evidence goes against it.
It does not work this way. One lab would say this, other lab would say otherwise. The problem is that in this way, you are completely unconvincing to someone with a scientific background -who understands the issue. Let me explain.
The problem is that we assume the date is skewed by several centuries (1300 years exactly). And that’s a lot! Can you calculate how much external contamination you need to skew the C-14 results so much (I can)? We postulate there is some SYSTEMATIC ERROR present. Due to some physical reason, which may be scientifically tenable -or not. And that impacts our decision (whether we can trust the conclusion of 1989 Nature report that the Shroud is later fake, not necessarily from 14th century, it could be a bit earlier, i.e. 12th century if there is some minor systematic error -we can estimate its scope -or whether the Shroud could still be authentic burial cloth of Jesus). Science advances by questioning and re-examining evidence, not by settling issues once and for all. The science is not one forever decision -it is an ongoing process.
I do understand what is wrong with the C-14 dating of the Shroud. I wrote articles about that. Yet for the sake of discussion, I can play devil’s advocate and defend the 1988 results against criticism. But I’m genuinely curious — can you convince me they are scientifically wrong?
Hi, O.K.,
Thank you for your very kind compliment about my first and last name. My full name (“Theodora”) means “God’s gift”–which, I’m sure, has many people “rolling their eyes” and chuckling given how annoying I can be . . .🤣🤣🤣 But, I still like to remind people of that!😉🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
In my day-to-day interactions with people, I’m not one to go around “threatening” people about Hell. But, if discussing matters concerning the Holy Shroud (which most of the time is on the internet in a discussion forum or on a podcast) or religion in general, then, the issue of Hell sometimes does, indeed, come up. Pascal’s wager is an important thing to think about–about 5 years ago, I did a debate on that topic on a podcast against an atheist.
Some people are more motivated by the “carrot”–I tend to be more motivated by “the stick.” And, well, God very wisely uses BOTH to incentivize us into behaving in a way that is against our sinful natures. The motivation becomes more powerful the more that one has confidence that God really and truly is real. This is more difficult in reality than what even most devout Christians think–because a God that we cannot typically experience with any of our senses seems imaginary–even if we earnestly maintain a belief in Him. And, this is where the Holy Shroud is so powerful–it bridges that gap in a way that gives us enough of a personal connection to our Lord’s face that He becomes far more real to us–in a way that really satisfies our powerful, internal yearning to experience His presence.
I remind you, Bart Ehrman rejected Christianity over the “Problem of Evil.” So, what he really is (deep in his heart) is an anti-theist. He is disgusted by God and has contempt for Him–that God would allow so much suffering to exist in this world–particularly with children or other innocents. But, we learn things through suffering, our character either grows or diminishes through suffering, and God tests us when we suffer. A life that chases self-gratification is not a life that God approves of. So, it is important that we are aware of this–because, if we are not, how can we make an effort to be better people?
Regarding what is “wrong” with the dating of the Shroud–this is not necessarily the case. Per Bob Rucker’s hypothesis (as I understand it), the 1988 C-14 test results are correct, but only for that area of the cloth. My understanding is that per his hypothesis, different areas of the cloth would have a different date–and Bob’s hypothesis is evidence of (my words and my characterization) energy from Jesus’ resurrection. So, who knows, maybe the results are right. Or, maybe there was an invisible reweave per Joe Marino and Sue Benford’s hypothesis. Or, maybe both situations are true. It would be difficult to know for certain without addition C-14 testing in different areas of the cloth.
I don’t feel the need to have to get into all of the details, because as a lawyer, I know that the most powerful evidence is that of an admission against interest. When the largest radiocarbon dating company in the world (Beta-Analytic) states that textile evidence that is being radiocarbon dated needs to be assessed as part of a multi-disciplinary process, the people that know the most about this subject are ADMITTING that to just rely solely on the radiocarbon dating results performed on a textile are UNRELIABLE. They did not qualify their statement that the multi-disciplinary process is not needed if the people performing the radiocarbon dating feel confident that their cleaning procedures are good-enough.
People are far too confident in a test that can involve too many unknowns. With the Shroud evidence, there is too much information that goes against interpreting the 1988 C-14 results as meaning that the Shroud dates only to medieval times. I don’t need Science to tell me that–I’ve got something better than just Science–I’ve got Science, Logic, Argumentation, Common Sense and prior historical examples of C-14 results that have gone horribly wrong despite, I’m sure, the proper cleaning protocols being performed on the sample before it was tested.
So, I don’t seek to convince you or anyone else that the interpretation of the 1988 C-14 results on the Shroud are SCIENTIFICALLY wrong–I just seek to convince people that they are UNRELIABLE and, therefore, should not be viewed as being an impediment to someone’s assessment of the Holy Shroud as being the authentic burial cloth of Christ.
Best regards,
Teddi
Teddi:
People are far too confident in a test that can involve too many unknowns.
And yet — the point of science is precisely to rework those “unknowns” into “knowns.” Yes, there may be many hypotheses postulated — but some of them can be evidenced, and others can be ruled out.
Let’s start with some very basic, quantitative questions — which anyone seriously discussing the C-14 results must face:
* What is the relative amount of C-14 in a cloth from 1260–1390 AD compared to one from ~30 AD?
* Based on that, what percentage of contamination with modern carbon would be required to skew the dating by 1300 years?
These are not abstract questions — they are directly calculable, and give us an idea of whether a proposed source of error is physically plausible or not.
Per Bob Rucker’s hypothesis (as I understand it), the 1988 C-14 test results are correct, but only for that area of the cloth. My understanding is that per his hypothesis, different areas of the cloth would have a different date–and Bob’s hypothesis is evidence of (my words and my characterization) energy from Jesus’ resurrection.
Yes. Neutron radiation theory. But please check Ray Rogers’ paper “THE SHROUD OF TURIN:RADIATION EFFECTS, AGING AND IMAGE FORMATION”: https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/rogers8.pdf
Some quotes from it:
“It is concluded that the image could not have involved energetic radiation of any kind; photons, electrons, protons, alpha particles, and/or neutrons.” […] “Although neutrons are not ionizing radiation, when they hit a proton in an organic material, they
produce a “recoil proton.” These protons are ionizing particles, and they can be observed. Figure 9 shows a neutron-irradiated fiber from an Egyptian mummy. When you look very closely, you can see a few short, dim tracks from recoil protons in the middle of the fiber. Such
features are extremely rare in shroud fibers.”
[Now I am speaking]. Because neutrons do not have electric charge they dissipate energy through collisions with other particles. And thus they always penetrate quite deep into material. It is very unlikely for the neutron radiation to produce such supeficial (~200 nm) discoloration we see on the Shroud fibers. That is why I have never considered neutron hypothesis quite seriously (the postulate of some energy released during resurrection does not matter, I could easily accept it). Has Bob Rucker (I haven’t read all his papers) ever addressed Rogers’ and others reservations about this theory?
Or, maybe there was an invisible reweave per Joe Marino and Sue Benford’s hypothesis.
Yes. But how could it be evidenced in practice?
Or, maybe both situations are true. It would be difficult to know for certain without addition C-14 testing in different areas of the cloth.
Yes. But there are other scientific analyses that could be (and have been) performed with regards to the check of the C-14 results. Do you know them? The size, weight and density of the samples? Etc.
I don’t feel the need to have to get into all of the details, because as a lawyer, I know that the most powerful evidence is that of an admission against interest.
But this is science, not an American court of law (which differs from Polish courtroom for example). That’s exactly the point. This isn’t an American courtroom. It’s not about who wins the argument. In science, you have to get into the details — otherwise your claims simply don’t count as science. “Admission against interest” may be powerful in litigation, but in experimental physics, we care more about replication, error margins, and model constraints than about what a given lab says.
And Beta Analytic’s statement about textiles needing multi-disciplinary evaluation is not some magic checkmate. It’s a general methodological note — one that applies to any complex material. It doesn’t automatically disqualify the 1988 tests unless we can demonstrate, with evidence, that they failed those standards in a material way.
So, I don’t seek to convince you or anyone else that the interpretation of the 1988 C-14 results on the Shroud are SCIENTIFICALLY wrong–I just seek to convince people that they are UNRELIABLE
You can make reliable data even from the unreliable experiment. Really. If you know the factors which contribute to the unreliability. This is commonplace in science (that the methods are not fully reliable, but we can control it somehow). Even “unreliable” methods can yield reliable conclusions if the limitations are known and factored in.
I know you’re coming at this from a place of deep conviction — and I respect that. But conviction can go even further when it’s paired with a solid grasp of the technical details. That’s what makes a position persuasive not just to believers, but also to skeptics who value evidence.
Hi, O.K.,
But, remember, Science is just one tool that a lawyer (and others) use to get to a greater Truth. Logic, common sense, life experience, risk-benefit analysis (“Pascal’s Wager”) and history are, additional, factors that help us answer questions. Because, in the end, it’s not about a debate and who has the burden of proof and what can Science prove and what the protocols are for Science–it’s about figuring out WHAT IS TRUE about this cloth that we know so much about and which so much continues to remain a mystery.
I think that we can be confident that people who do radiocarbon dating for a living know which protocols to use for various samples. They all know to clean the samples of as much contamination as possible. Yet, I remember reading–I think it was either from the book that Barrie Schwortz and Ian Wilson wrote together or, perhaps, from my own research on contamination issues, but I have read that there was a situation (perhaps there have been lots more of these situations, I don’t know) where a sample received a C-14 dating result that was IN THE FUTURE. Now, I ask, how can that happen? But, did someone just make this up? Who would make that up when it could be so easily disproven if that’s not a possibility? Additionally, archeologists are quite familiar with the limitations and sometimes failures of C-14 dating.
There is the old expression where you just don’t know what you don’t know. We have no idea how much–and what type–of contamination the Shroud has been exposed to. When I think of textiles being radiocarbon dated, I think of the linen wrappings used on mummies or clothing or things like that–and most of these situations the cloth has been in a protected environment that was free from an abundance of contamination.
And, I still think that the Fire of 1532 could have skewed things.
There is, additionally, the issue of (per Ray Rogers) the layer of starch and yellow madder dye (that Adrie van Der Hoeven thinks, as I recall, could have been used as an optical brightener for the cloth.) Rogers found this (again, if I am recalling correctly) from the C-14 area–which was never subjected to toluene. I performed research to learn more about yellow madder dye and its properties, and it has preservative-like qualities and Beta Analytics warns about how textiles that have been treated with (I think they might have used the term “preservatives” or perhaps special treatments, could, also effect the dating of a textile. Beta Analytics’ website had previously (I don’t think it states this now, but it might) warned against smoking near a sample to be tested.
WHY??? If the cleaning protocols are so great, why can’t someone smoke a pack of Marlboro Lights in from of a cloth and blow smoke on it and it not matter–AGAIN, if the cleaning protocols are really as good as they say they are. I’d like to see if blind testing and controls have been performed on various textiles of a known age to see how truly reliable C-14 testing is. Otherwise, perhaps it is even less reliable than everyone thinks.
I’d love to cross-examine these scientists who perform radiocarbon dating in order to see what evidence that give for their confident answers. Hmmmmm . . .
Scientists can’t even figure out how many eggs it’s safe to eat per week, and they can figure out the age of a cloth that has been in fires and handled and handled by countless hands in many different countries. There are many unknowns–it’s unknown how many unknowns there are . . . so, when we see many other types of tests pointing in a different direction than a medieval date, we can have great confident that the interpretation and possibly the results of the C-14 testing in 1988 were wrong or, at minimum, so unreliable as to make them not be a concern when assessing whether the Shroud is the burial cloth of Christ.
Best regards,
Teddi
Hi, again, O.K.,
You mention this: “You can make reliable data even from the unreliable experiment. Really. If you know the factors which contribute to the unreliability. This is commonplace in science (that the methods are not fully reliable, but we can control it somehow). Even “unreliable” methods can yield reliable conclusions if the limitations are known and factored in.”
But, look at the limitation that you put in your very own statement: that reliable data can be gotten from an unreliable experiment IF [my emphasis] you know the factors which contribute to the unreliability.
But, here you go–how can you possibly know all of the factors that can contribute to the unreliability of something like the Shroud?
First of all, since the question is whether this cloth is the burial cloth of Christ, and since there is historiographical evidence in the form of the four Gospels (as well as other sources) that Christ was resurrected, then there’s a big, big problem here. Dead bodies have no energy in them (well, there is some energy going on during the post-mortem process, but you know what I mean. For a body to be resurrected, energy has to be infused back into the body in some way.
Now, with my argument here, I am not supposing that the Resurrection is True. My point is that since the question involves whether this cloth is Christ’s, one must factor in “resurrection energy” as a possibility (whatever form that energy takes.) Personally, it would seem to me that God would use a supernatural form of energy to resurrect Jesus–something that nobody could ever replicate. I can’t prove this, but it just fits with God’s modus operandi.
So, how can a scientist possibly even imagine how an unknown form of energy could impact and skew radiocarbon dating? They can’t! I would argue that “it’s baked into the cake” that conventional testing would be unreliable.
In terms of the technical details, I have enough of a grasp of the limitations to radiocarbon dating to where I don’t think–based on what Beta-Analytic has stated as well as my own, aforementioned, thoughts–that I really need deeper knowledge of those details. Instead, I have spent my time gaining a deeper knowledge of the specific details concerning the chemical and physical aspects of the Shroud. That’s what tells me, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Shroud could not have been created by either an artistic or even a natural process.
When building a criminal case (in the U.S.) based on circumstantial evidence, the prosecutor has to spin a web so tightly with evidence so that only one rational conclusion is likely beyond a reasonable doubt. And, well, we can do this with the Shroud. So, GAME, SET, MATCH!
Of course, people can still come up with cockamamie ideas, but that’s not “reasonable doubt”–that’s what I call “magical doubt.”
Best regards,
Teddi
Hi Teddi,
You write:
“We can do this with the Shroud. So, GAME, SET, MATCH!”
But is it really that simple?
What Beta Analytic states about the limitations of C-14 dating textiles is indeed cautionary—but hardly new. We were talking this way one night in a bar, Barrie and I, long before “radiation theory” arguments appeared. Everyone in the Shroud field has known (or should have known) that single-sample dating on a complex, handled, repaired, and possibly contaminated textile is only one piece of the puzzle, not a conclusive stamp.
You also mention building a criminal case “beyond a reasonable doubt.” But decisions are not so simple. We have hung juries all the time. Judges struggle. The O.J. Simpson trial is remembered for a single phrase about a glove, leading to acquittal, yet in the court of world opinion countless people believe he was guilty. So, “GAME, SET, MATCH!” Really?
Even if we imagine that the C-14 date is first century, then what do we have? Possibly a relic of Jesus, yes, but what exactly? In my mind, we have three options:
1 A bier cloth used for transport from the cross to the tomb
2 A burial shroud that remained in the tomb
3 A crafted object of unknown purpose, made intentionally or unintentionally
In my opinion, the bier cloth hypothesis is the strongest. Others believe it is the burial shroud. We can’t know; we can only believe. And changing opinions in the court of public opinion would take a lot. Could we convince the world that the Shroud of Turin is 1st century? It would take a lot. That the Shroud is authentic? Maybe, but the bier cloth hypothesis stands as a formidable reasonable doubt. If the bier fits the Gospels (and it does) then you must admit (as a possibility).
Legal metaphors can help us think about evidence, but we should remember that “reasonable doubt” doesn’t mean “no doubt,” and when there are strong alternative explanations, it prevents a slam-dunk verdict. This is not to deny the power of the Shroud or its mystery, but to recognize that even in a court of law, the matter would remain complex, contested, and very much alive. Much more so in a court of public opinion. GAME, SET, MATCH?
I don’t understand why you think that the bier cloth hypothesis would be an argument against the Shroud being authentic. As I see it, “authentic” means it’s been in contact with Jesus Christ and bears his image and his blood. That would be true regardless of whether it was a bier cloth or a burial cloth. How would that matter?
Good point, Gerardo. I need to clarify. A bier cloth would certainly be a relic of Jesus. It would not be the burial cloth that remained in the tomb, presumably; one that some people need to provide some level of proof for the Resurrection. That proof (really only conjecture) being an image imagined to have been produced by energy from said resurrection. (Lawyer like to say things like ‘said’ resurrection). The bier cloth can offer no such proof and we are therefore compelled to fall back on scripture, faith and (dare we say it) reason. I hope I’m a bit clearer here.
Teddi
So can we now exclude the neutron radiation theory based on Rogers’ critique — unless Bob Rucker (or anyone else) provides a satisfactory response to those objections?
Once again:
* What is the relative amount of C-14 in a cloth from 1260–1390 AD compared to one from ~30 AD?
* Based on that, how much modern carbon contamination would be needed to shift the dating by 1300 years?
These are not abstract questions — they are directly calculable, and give us an idea of whether a proposed source of error is physically plausible or not.
a sample received a C-14 dating result that was IN THE FUTURE. Now, I ask, how can that happen?
I don’t know. But in the case of our 1988 datings, the control samples gave satisfactory, correct and expected results. So we can exclude any fault in the machinery.
There is the old expression where you just don’t know what you don’t know. We have no idea how much–and what type–of contamination the Shroud has been exposed to.
We do. We do have some idea about “how much” (or at least some estimates of upper limits). Just perform the calculations — check the size, weight, and density of the samples. Do the math — you can’t escape it.
And, I still think that the Fire of 1532 could have skewed things.
No one has ever (so far) evidenced such possibility (that the fire could skew the results by 1300 years).
When building a criminal case (in the U.S.) based on circumstantial evidence, the prosecutor has to spin a web so tightly with evidence so that only one rational conclusion is likely beyond a reasonable doubt. And, well, we can do this with the Shroud. So, GAME, SET, MATCH!
The problem is different. In U.S. criminal case (as any other) the problem is whether the accused can be proven guilty of purported crime (by the accepted criteria of proof). With grievous consequences for him, if the verdict is guilty: incarceration or even death penalty (that’s why the criteria of proof must be so tight). So how can we translate this model for the Shroud case? The trial would be whether the Shroud is “guilty” of a crime of being inauthentic, a FAKE later than the time of Christ. And whether or not this could be PROVEN (“beyond reasonable doubt” or whatever). But if it could not be proven (“beyond reasonable doubt” or whatever) this does not prove AUTHENTICITY of the Shroud. Because they ARE NOT the exact opposites! (“proven” vs “not proven” on one hand and “authentic” vs “inauthentic” on the other).
In other words:
‘Not proven fake’ ≠ ‘Proven authentic’.
Just like ‘not guilty’ ≠ ‘innocent’.”
This is a key subtlety that is missed by reductionist narrow 0-1 fundamentalist way of thinking.
So far, you’re losing the trial — at least in a Polish courtroom… and in the “courtroom” of science… :-P
Dear OK
Please provide a link to the Polish process and extracts and quotes such as I had done.
So far the verdict is that the C14 date is fake.
You have identified that “purpose” is a reason why evidence is admissible. The purpose in this legal argument in the court of science is not to prove intent or reckless indifference. In the Missy Wood case if it gets to prosecution the bad DNA results will be in court to prove that Missy Wood was “grossly reckless and indifferent” or “intentional” in providing bad results.
The purpose of Bob Rucker is to provide explanation of how C14 came to be on the sample. Note, how Ray Rogers found that there were two different C14 readings on the two threads. (Interestingly there are still leftover bits of that sample that could be assessed.)
As discussed, the corroborative evidence shows a much earlier date for the Shroud so Bob Rucker is using the radiation to understand why a 13th century amount of C14 was found on the single Shroud sample. To date I have not become aware that the Wide Angle X-Ray dating method is unreliable. The WAX 1st century date of the Shroud needs some explanation how that single sample has more than expected C14.
Bob Rucker’s work is essential. Unlike the C14 team that ignored the “anomaly” Bob Rucker is taking the time to assess and analyse the amount of C14 and what it means
Cheers
Will
Dear OK
I will amend the following statement in the previous post:
“So far the verdict is that the C14 date is fake”
and change it to:.
“So far the verdict is that the C14 date is wrong due to its unreliability and the other evidence supports a much earlier date”
The word “fake” makes inferences that shouldn’t be in the court of science where the purpose is simply to obtain a date.
Cheers
Will
Just a reminder … On the “Déjà Vu All Over Again; Beyond Reasonable Doubt” blog a verdict was provided, namely:
i. The Middle Ages date is wrong and
ii. The date is earlier than the middle Ages
That verdict was based on the admissible evidence where the pro middle ages evidence was that of the Bishop. In accordance with the Court regulations that Bishop evidence has little weight because it was not first hand.
As such the non middle ages evidence makes it clear that the date is far earlier than the middle ages.
The discussion should be surrounding the following:
i. Wide Angle X-Ray
ii. Ray Rogers twin threads
iii. Head Cloth blood stain alignment with Shroud
iv. Image not formed by any known Mid Ages methods
v. Pollen extinct in the 5th Century
vi. Jerusalem dust
vii. Rucker’s radiation tests
What they are doing in Missy Wood is discussing the retesting of the questionable DNA, But in the Shroud case,, it is extremely unlikely that the Pope will allow the required extra samples. Blame the C14 daters.
My contributions will be a bit less frequent as I’m now currently helping two more victims of crimes. I am a bit behind with the ChatGP response for OK, Sorry.
By the way, I understand that the legal science is very new but both Teddi and I have been providing the explanations and the conclusions to help everyone understand.