Teddi, I hope you know I’m not picking on you for sport. I respond because, in much of what you write, I see reflections of my own thinking from the time when I strongly supported the Shroud’s authenticity. You make your case with clarity and conviction, and you’ve become a formidable and thoughtful voice in the conversation.
To everyone else, I recommend your paper, Beyond Imagination, and I recommend Hugh Farey’s careful analysis. Read them both (and the comments).
Teddi, in a recent comment you wrote:
My paper with many important highlights of evidence that goes towards proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the Shroud of Turin is the authentic burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth.
https://urfjournals.org/open-access/beyond-imagination-evidence-of-rigor-mortis-and-cadaveric-spasm-on-the-shroud-of-turin.pdf
I’ve taken the time to read your paper again, and I want to offer a respectful but candid response to that claim. The phrase “beyond a reasonable doubt” carries significant weight. It implies that all reasonable objections have been thoroughly addressed and resolved, leaving no serious alternative explanation. However, in your paper, many key issues remain unsettled.
I’m reminded of Michael Minor, a longtime Shroud researcher and author of A Lawyer Argues for the Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin. He served as host and master of ceremonies at the 2005 Shroud conference in Dallas, where he confidently asserted that he could prove the Shroud’s authenticity in a court of law. I don’t recall whether he used the phrase “beyond a reasonable doubt,” but I do remember him claiming that the preponderance of evidence would be enough to override the medieval dates established by radiocarbon testing.
As Yogi Berra might have said, it’s déjà vu all over again. Let’s see.
Perhaps the most enduring challenge is the 1988 radiocarbon dating of the Shroud. Three independent laboratories dated the cloth to the medieval period. Despite extensive efforts by authenticity proponents to disprove those results—suggesting contamination, invisible mending, radiation effects, or conspiracy theories—no accredited expert in radiocarbon science has endorsed these objections. The dating remains a cornerstone of the mainstream scientific view, and any claim that seeks to overcome it must engage directly and convincingly with that reality. Otherwise you are faced with reasonable doubt.
Your paper presumes that the Gospel accounts provide a forensically reliable record of Jesus’s burial. But the Gospels were written decades after the events they describe, and scholars recognize that their differences in detail, symbolism, and theological intent limit their reliability as historical documentation. Raymond E. Brown, the preeminent Catholic Johannine scholar, highlighted the ambiguity in the phrase “he saw and believed.” Did the disciple believe Jesus had risen, or simply believe Mary Magdalene’s report that the body was gone? This makes any effort to match the Shroud to the Gospel narratives—especially in support of a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt—particularly challenging.
In addition, there are alternative explanations for the Shroud that must be ruled out to reach anything approaching certainty. The possibility that it was a bier cloth (if the carbon dating is somehow proven incorrect), or that it captured the image of a crucified man in the medieval era, remains viable. So too do proposals suggesting the image was created by artistic or semi-natural processes, such as contact imaging, chemical reactions, or techniques like dry powder imprinting or intaglio printing. These theories have not been definitively eliminated. In fact, some have gained renewed respect in recent years, particularly as modern tests show such images can exhibit 3D (VP-8-like) properties. Thus, reasonable doubt.
I appreciate your emphasis on the forensic realism of the image, especially your interpretations of rigor mortis and cadaveric spasm. But even if such features are present, they don’t resolve the central questions of identity, origin, or image formation. As Hugh Farey has pointed out, interpreting faint image features as cadaveric signs is subjective and open to alternative readings. The appearance of realism does not eliminate the possibility of artistic intention or fabrication. Again, reasonable doubt.
There are also problems with how certain visual features are interpreted. The often-repeated claim that the Shroud is not a painting or rubbing because it lacks visible brushstrokes or directionality only rules out some forms of artistic creation. Known techniques such as dry powder daubing, bas-relief imprinting, or acid etching can produce images without those telltale signs. The absence of brushstrokes, then, is not conclusive. Reasonable doubt remains.
Likewise, the claim that the Shroud image encodes true three-dimensional information, unlike a photograph, has been repeatedly and credibly questioned. The VP-8 Image Analyzer can generate a visually striking relief map from a photograph of the Shroud. But modern experiments show that many ordinary images with smooth tonal gradients—including drawings, death masks, and even coins—can produce similar results in the VP-8, and even better ones using modern 3D modeling software.
Crucially, the VP-8 does not detect actual spatial data—it interprets brightness as elevation. If shading in an image happens to resemble depth, the device produces a 3D-looking result. This doesn’t mean the image itself contains encoded spatial information. In fact, the VP-8 performs poorly on high-contrast images and often creates noise. Knowing this creates reasonable doubt.
A favorite demonstration at Shroud conferences was placing a checkers board under the VP-8 Image Analyzer. On the screen, a dramatic cityscape would appear—black squares rising like skyscrapers, white squares flattening into street-level plazas. Of course, no one believed the VP-8 was detecting real spatial information; it was simply interpreting brightness as height. One glance at this experiment is enough to introduce reasonable doubt about any claim that the VP-8 reveals encoded 3D data on the Shroud.
The assertion that photographs cannot produce undistorted anatomical reliefs is demonstrably false. That was tested and documented years ago. As Farey and others have shown, it depends on the photograph and the processing method—not on anything exclusive to the Shroud. More reasonable doubt.
Moreover, to argue that the image’s 3D effect rules out photographic or artistic origin presents a false dichotomy: either it contains encoded spatial data, or it’s fake. But the real question is whether similar 3D effects can result from known artistic or physical processes—and the evidence says they can.
Another frequent argument is that we still don’t know how the image was made. That mystery is sometimes offered or implied as indirect support for authenticity. But that’s an argument from ignorance: the lack of explanation does not prove a specific conclusion. Mystery alone isn’t evidence. The unexplained is not, by default, the miraculous. “How could it be?” is an important question—but it is a question, not an answer. More reasonable doubt.
Finally, the venue of publication also matters. Your paper appears in URF Journals, a publication not widely recognized for rigorous peer review or scholarly impact on topics like this. As is often the case with “pay-to-play” open-access journals, there are legitimate questions about editorial standards and review quality. This is not a criticism of you or the journal, but a broader issue that scholars across disciplines must acknowledge. Without a transparent peer review process involving experts in radiocarbon dating, textile archaeology, forensic pathology, biblical studies, and image analysis, any claims—however sincere—must be treated with caution. Perhaps no single journal can cover all those fields, which highlights just how complex and interdisciplinary the Shroud really is. Still, reasonable doubt persists.
In the end, the claim that the Shroud’s authenticity has been proven “beyond a reasonable doubt” is not only overstated—it is contradicted by the enduring weight of evidence. The 1988 radiocarbon dating has withstood decades of scrutiny and remains unrefuted by any AMS expert. Public opinion further complicates the story: according to multiple polls, between 25% and 33% of American Christians do not believe in a physical resurrection, suggesting that the tomb was not open or empty. If the body remained in the tomb, how could a burial cloth have emerged at all? For non-Christians, this baseline skepticism is even stronger. The forensic features—including rigor mortis and cadaveric spasm—are drawn from an image that is not only incomplete but, in a sense, mutilated by centuries of rolling, folding, and fire damage. What remains is a degraded and ambiguous artifact whose details are subject to interpretation. There are simply too many uncertainties, too many viable alternatives, and too much interpretive flexibility. Thus, the burden of proof is far from met. Rather than closing the case, the current evidence calls for continued questioning and thoughtful inquiry—not courtroom certitude.
Hi, Dan,
I just have time for a quick response–I’ve got to get back to working on my hematidrosis paper and then my conference paper and then back to working on my book.
Regarding the open access “pay-to-play” remark. The journal I published in is not listed as a “predatory journal” and what you call “pay-to-play” is inaccurate. In fact, its “[author] pays so that the reader can read without paying.” For anyone who does serious research and reads scholarly journals, many of the journals are inaccessible without paying, typically, about $40.00 or so. Sometimes, an abstract is given (so you’ve got some sort of idea as to what is in the paper) and sometimes an abstract is not given–and one debates whether they want to drop $40 for a paper that might be useless to them. So, lots of important information gets put behind paywalls. So, if an author wants their work to get read by more people, one makes it FREE (open-access.) And, many of the very top journals charge a FORTUNE to publish with them. Well, most people either do not have the means to pay those large sums of money or are unwilling to. So, really, let the author’s work speak for itself and judge it on its merits (or lack thereof.)
Now, with regard to the big bogeyman chasing the Shroud’s authenticity–the 1988 radiocarbon dating results. Well, it really is akin to an “imaginary” evil spirit used to frighten the children (of God.) (And, I’m sure there will be people that will slice up what I’m saying and just quote part of it in the future in order to make me look “anti-Science,” but that will be perpetrating a fraud on people. If people do it, I’ll quote what I’ve said in full and show them to be deceptive and manipulative. Anyhow, as I continue, radiocarbon dating is not “imaginary” in the sense that it is junk science. No, not at all. But, every test has limitations to its reliability. And, some tests have more limits to their reliability than others.
I know that people on both sides of the debate regarding the aforementioned radiocarbon dating results make great arguments. And, you know what I say: GREAT! Whether the 1988 results were correct or not, they can both be used to point to the Shroud’s authenticity! (I won’t try to explain the intricacies of Bob Rucker’s hypothesis and analyses, but I invite people to examine them for themselves.) But, on the other side of the coin, Joe Marino and his late wife Sue Benford (and then confirmed by Ray Rogers and others) make POWERFUL arguments WITH LOTS OF EVIDENCE for there having been an invisible reweave at the very area that the cloth was cut for testing. There’s nothing difficult to believe about this as the testing area was in the area where people were holding the edge of the cloth for displaying it and folding it. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that puts stress on a cloth–particularly one as old as the Shroud of Turin. This is just common sense. Joe has written about evidence that there have been numerous repairs to the Shroud because of the need to mend areas due to handling (this is independent of the patches put on by the Poor Clare nuns after the Fire of 1532.) So, where’s the big mystery? Where is the evidence of those documented mendings, huh? WE DO NOT SEE THEM, right? Hence, those were “invisibly repaired,” also.
But, back to the C-14 testing. I am most definitely not known for my brevity. However, (perhaps a miracle, itself!), I can easily NEUTRALIZE the C-14 results so that they pose NO HARM to the Holy Shroud’s authenticity. How do I argue this? Well, Beta-Analytics (and I’ve been arguing this publicly since at least October of 2020) is the largest radiocarbon dating company in the world (based on the information that I had read–probably from their own website.) Going from memory, but people can easily google them and double-check, they are based out of Florida. Go to their website and see what they say when the topic of radiocarbon dating a TEXTILE (SUCH AS THE SHROUD) comes up. They explicitly state–go see it for yourself–that radiocarbon dating a textile should be part of a MULTI-DISCIPLINARY PROCESS. Now, it doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines here, does it? What that means is that the radiocarbon dating of textiles can be UNRELIABLE. So, it is imperative (as any archeologist would tell you) that you look to see what other pieces of evidence (if available) inform about the date of the textile being dated. So, again, as any archeologist worth their salt knows, if, at a site, there are one or more artifacts around a cloth that yield a date (or have something on them that signals to experts how old the item is based on other factors), then that is a very, very credible and serious indication that something went wrong with the radiocarbon dating results.
Additionally, Beta-Analytics mentions on their website about how one should NOT SMOKE around a sample that is to be tested. WHY NOT? If their cleaning process is so great, why can’t I smoke a pack of Marlboros and blow smoke directly onto the sample to be tested? Well, I think the answer is obvious, yes? Additionally, why does the Beta-Analytics website mention that there can be challenges radiocarbon dating samples that have sustained water damage. Well, the cloth that was radiocarbon dated came from an area that was water-stained (and heavily handled and polluted/contaminated by countless hands.) So, here we have another very serious (and very easy to understand) problem.
So, while it’s great that people can lampoon the reliability of the C-14 tests through far more geeky and sophisticated ways, this ol’ Texas lawyer can shoot it down with the “testimony” of the biggest radiocarbon dating company in the world. If they don’t know what they’re talking about, who does?
Hugh has mentioned before how he contacted some random representative from Beta-Analytics about ?2 years ago. He and I duked that out already, and I showed that there were problems with that. And, it really doesn’t matter what some random rep that’s not the head honcho says. The website speaks for itself. If nothing else, Hugh raised this issue to a representative of Beta-Analytics about 2 years ago. The fact that they hadn’t removed those caveat that I mention from their website points to those caveats being TRUE. Additionally, what Beta-Analytics posts is a sort of admission against their own interest–which is always the “gold-standard” for reliable information as no sane person or organization seeks to undermine their credibility, value, etc. Beta-Analytics is, I would imagine, a very substantial corporation, and by admitting what they did, they are admitting the LIMITATIONS of the reliability of the radiocarbon dating of textiles.
With regard to the other issues, we’ve discussed these ad nauseam. While I’d still have fun discussing them, I’ve got to get back to work. For people to learn more about the topics that I did not respond to, just look at various STURP papers that have been published on shroud.com or even look to discussions about these topics on this website. And, people should understand, we do not always have the time to respond to remarks. So, a lack of a response should not be construed as an inability to respond.
And, yes, the evidence for the Shroud’s authenticity meets the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. The operative word being “reasonable.” There is too much of a mountain of evidence that points to authenticity for it to be anything else than the authentic burial cloth of Christ. Any singular piece of evidence will have tiny little areas where a skeptic can try and poke wholes with the “what if” game. But, please, show me an example of something that has a many, many pieces of strong (but not 100% perfect) evidence that comes from different sources and different fields of study with regard to a certain proposition, but that the proposition is false. As to identity, the puncture wounds around the head are the clincher. There is only ONE person known in all of history to be crucified with a crown of thorns: JESUS OF NAZARETH!
I leave you and Hugh with a challenge: See if you all can imagine a situation (or know of a situation–which you all will not) where something has so much evidence pointing to its being what it is purported to be, but it is not. Again, the evidence needs to be very varied and from different disciplines. Show me something that even remotely approximates the Shroud situation, and then we’ll take it from there.
Well, gotta go for now,
Teddi
Hi, Dan,
I just have time for a quick response.
Regarding the open access “pay-to-play” remark. The journal I published in is not listed as a “predatory journal” and what you call “pay-to-play” is inaccurate. In fact, its really as situation of “[author] pays so that the reader can read without paying.” For anyone who does serious research and reads scholarly journals, many of the journals are inaccessible without paying, typically, about $40.00 or so.
Sometimes, an abstract is given (so you’ve got some sort of idea as to what is in the paper) and sometimes an abstract is not given–and one debates whether they want to drop $40 for a paper that might be useless to them. So, lots of important information gets put behind paywalls. So, if an author wants their work to get read by more people, one makes it FREE (open-access.) And, many of the very top journals charge a FORTUNE to publish with them. Well, most people either do not have the means to pay those large sums of money or are unwilling to. So, really, let the author’s work speak for itself and judge it on its merits (or lack thereof.)
Now, with regard to the big bogeyman chasing the Shroud’s authenticity–the 1988 radiocarbon dating results. Well, it really is akin to an “imaginary” evil spirit used to frighten the children (of God.) (And, I’m sure there will be people that will slice up what I’m saving and lust quote part of it in the future in order to make me look “anti-Science,” but that will be perpetrating a fraud on people. If people do it, I’II quote what I’ve said in full and show them to be deceptive and manipulative. Anyhow, as I continue, radiocarbon dating is not “imaginary” in the sense that it is junk science. No, not at all. But, every test has limitations to its reliability. And, some tests have more limits to their reliability than others.
I know that people on both sides of the debate regarding the aforementioned radiocarbon dating results make great arguments. And, you know what I say:
GREAT! Whether the 1988 results were correct or not, they can both be used to point to the Shroud’s authenticity! (I won’t try to explain the intricacies of Bob Rucker’s hypothesis and analyses, but I invite people to examine them for themselves.) But, on the other side of the coin, Joe Marino and his late wife Sue Benford (and then confirmed by Ray Rogers and others) make POWERFUL arguments WITH LOTS OF EVIDENCE for there having been an invisible reweave at the very area that the cloth was cut for testing. There’s nothing difficult to believe about this as the testing area was in the area where people were holding the edge of the cloth for displaying it and folding it. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that this puts stress on a cloth–particularly one as old as the Shroud of Turin. This is just common sense.
Joe has written about evidence that there have been numerous repairs to the Shroud because of the need to mend areas due to handling (this is independent of the patches put on by the Poor Clare nuns after the Fire of 1532.) So, why do people persist in in the fiction that a high quality invisible reweaving technique is a fiction? I ask: Where is the evidence ON THE CLOTH of those documented mendings, huh? WE DO NOT SEE THEM, right? Hence, those were “invisibly repaired,” also–unless some conspiracy theorist wants to argue that this documentation was “planted” before Joe and Sue ever even came up with their evidence-based hypothesis and Rogers shored it up.
But, back to the C-14 testing. I am most definitely not known for my brevity.
However, (perhaps a miracle, itself!), I can easily NEUTRALIZE the C-14 results so that they pose NO HARM to the Holy Shroud’s authenticity. How do I argue this? Well, Beta-Analytics (and I’ve been arguing this publicly since at least
October of 2020) is the largest radiocarbon dating company in the world (based on the information that I had read–probably from their own website.) Going from memory, but people can easily google them and double-check, they are based out of Florida. Go to their website and see what they say when the topic of radiocarbon dating a TEXTILE (SUCH AS THE SHROUD) comes up. They explicitly state–go see it for vourself–that radiocarbon dating a textile should be part of a MULTI-DISCIPLINARY PROCESS. Now, it doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines here, does it? What that means is that the radiocarbon dating of textiles can be UNRELIABLE. So, it is imperative (as any archeologist would tell you) that you look to see what other pieces of evidence (if available) inform about the date of the textile being dated. So, again, as any archeologist worth their salt knows, if, at a site, there are one or more artifacts around a cloth that yield a date (or have something on them that signals to experts how old the item is based on other factors), then that is a very, very credible and serious indication that something went wrong with the radiocarbon dating results.
Additionally, Beta-Analytics mentions on their website about how one should NOT SMOKE around a sample that is to be tested. WHY NOT? If their cleaning process is so great, why can’t I smoke a pack of Marlboros and blow smoke directly onto the sample to be tested? Well, I think the answer is obvious, yes?
Additionally, why does the Beta-Analytics website mention that there can be challenges radiocarbon dating samples that have sustained water damage. Well, the cloth that was radiocarbon dated came from an area that was water-stained (and heavily handled and polluted contaminated by countless hands.) So, here we have another very serious (and very easy to understand) problem.
So, while it’s great that people can lampoon the reliability of the C-14 tests through far more geeky and sophisticated wavs, this ol’ Texas lawyer can shoot it down with the “testimony” of the biggest radiocarbon dating company in the world. If they don’t know what they’re talking about, who does?
Hugh has mentioned before how he contacted some random representative from Beta-Analytics about ?2 years ago. He and I duked that out already, and I showed that there were problems with his not-very-high-up-the-foodchain-source.
And, ultimately, it really doesn’t matter what some random rep that’s not the head honcho says. The website for this important, for-profit corporation speaks for itself. If nothing else, Hugh raised this issue to a representative of Beta-Analytics about 2 years ago. The fact that they hadn’t removed those caveat that I mention from their website points to those caveats being TRUE.
Additionally, what Beta-Analytics posts is a sort of admission against their own interest–which is always the “gold-standard” for reliable information as no sane person or organization seeks to undermine their credibility, value, etc. Beta-Analytics is, I would imagine, a very substantial corporation, and by admitting what they did, they are admitting the LIMITATIONS of the reliability of the radiocarbon dating of textiles.
With regard to the other issues, we’ve discussed these ad nauseam. While I’d still have fun discussing them, I’ve got to get back to work. For people to learn more about the topics that I did not respond to, just look at various STURP papers that have been published on shroud.com or even look to discussions about these topics on this website. And, people should understand, we do not always have the time to respond to remarks. So, a lack of a response should not be construed as an inability to respond.
And, yes, the evidence for the Shroud’s authenticity meets the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. The operative word being “reasonable.” There is too much of a mountain of evidence that points to authenticity for it to be anything else than the authentic burial cloth of Christ. Any singular piece of evidence will have tiny little areas where a skeptic can try and poke holes with the “what if” game. But, please, show me an example of something that has a many, many pieces of strong (but not 100% perfect) evidence that comes from different sources and different fields of study with regard to a certain proposition, but that the proposition is false. As to identity, the puncture wounds around the head are the clincher. There is only ONE person known in all of history to be crucified with a crown of thorns: JESUS OF NAZARETH!
I leave you and Hugh with a challenge: See if you all can imagine a situation (or know of a situation–which you all will not) where something has so much evidence pointing to its being what it is purported to be, but it is not. Again, the evidence needs to be very varied and from different disciplines. Show me something that even remotely approximates the Shroud situation, and then we’ll take it from there.
Well, gotta get back to work,
Teddi
Hi, Dan,
I’ve tried posting a response twice, but I do not see the response here or the email that I tend to get right after posting a response. Did it come through?
Best,
Teddi
Hi, Dan,
Just checking again. I still don’t see my long response that I attempted to post several times yesterday. Not sure if there is a technical problem or if, perhaps, my comment went into moderation and you have not had a chance to approve it.
Best regards,
Teddi
The forensic stuff is just too much I think I see and that for me is reasonable doubt in spades.
The skeptics are just too much, “I don’t think I see, I don’t think I see.” I’ve repeatedly attempted to post a long response to Dan’s piece. It’s not up (or at least not yet.)
As a criminal defence lawyer, Teddi must have listened to dozens of prosecutors insisting to the jury that they have proven their case beyond reasonable doubt – only for the jury to find the defendant not guilty. It’s no use convincing yourself that such-and-such has been proven beyond reasonable doubt, and then using your conviction as evidence that what you say must be true. ‘Reasonable doubt’ is not for the presenter of an argument to decide, but for the receiver.
Hi, Hugh,
I reject the notion that someone can’t assess the strength of evidence. If one finds evidence persuasive or even compelling, then this becomes the evidence one advances in arguments.
For example, a “classic” piece of Shroud scholarship is that there is part of a flagrum in Herculeneum. I used to agree with this since it seemed to make sense. However, I read (and re-read) Nicolotti’s paper dealing with that. I did my own investigation and research (such as looking at other Etruscan objects like hanging lamps, horse tack, that sort of thing that Nicolotti mentioned, and, well (as you Brits would say) “by-golly,” I think he’s right. As you can imagine, I was not happy about that, but, it is what it is. I’m pretty sure that I’ve mentioned this change of opinion of mine on SSG. I have zero interest in having defective quivers in my pouch. While they can make my pouch look full and impressive, if I ever actually need to use the, I’ll end up in a pinch, because they’ll be no good.
One last thing about the purported part of a flagrum in Herculeneum, I think that there is a reasonably good chance that the flagrum that was used to create the “scourge-marks” that we see on the Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images likely had a similar DESIGN as what is seen in the aforemented artifact in Herculeneum. So, see, I’ve given my own assessment of the evidence. And, people can decide to agree with my opinion or not.
(And, my response to Dan’s letter is STILL not up from yesterday despite others’ comments being posted. I guess my comments are now under moderation.)
Best regards,
Teddi
Hi, Dan,
I have, repeatedly, tried to post my comment yesterday to this new opinion piece of yours. Yet, I do not see it, but I see Ashlee’s and Hugh’s comments–perhaps they are not having their comments held in abeyance?
Dan,
With all do respect , your statement “..the (carbon)dating remains a cornerstone in mainstream science..”
I’m surprised you’re not familiar with Tristan Casablanca and Emanuela Marinelli’s 2019 paper that exposes the errors from that 1988 test. Quite simply, they poured through the 700 pages of data and found that the Chị Square Significance value of 5% was in error. The actual value of the”raw data” is 1.4%.
Any value below 5% is “significant deviation”. Objectively speaking the raw data shows an invalid acceptance. It hs been 6 years since this became known now and Emmanuela states there has not been a single challenge to this conclusion that the 1988test was invalid.
Thus, one can hardly claim the 1988 test is a cornerstone of mainstream science. It is a collapsed building. If you want to give a meaningful response to this then address it to those two researchers and not myself. I am only sharing the facts as was published in their peer reviewed data. I don’t Have the time to keep up a running dialogue on this. I’ve said what I had to say and I share it for the sake of letting the truth be known.
Jim,thanks for your comment. Of course I’m familiar with the Casabianca and Marinelli paper from 2019. It’s often cited in Shroud circles, but it doesn’t undermine the core validity of the 1988 carbon dating as definitively as you suggest, maybe not at all.
Let’s clarify a few points for the sake of accuracy:
The “Chi-Square” Reassessment: The Casabianca team did a helpful service by pushing for the release of the raw data, and their recalculated p-value of 1.4% has sparked renewed discussion. But calling the 1988 test “invalid” based on that alone is misleading. Statistically, a low p-value suggests heterogeneity in the sample—not necessarily a faulty or fraudulent test. In fact, heterogeneity was already acknowledged in the original Nature article.
Peer Review Caveat: While Casabianca et al.’s article was published in a journal, it appeared in Archaeometry, and although that lends some weight, it’s worth noting that there has been no widespread retraction or revision of the original 1988 conclusion or citations of it in any major scientific journal. And crucially, no independent radiocarbon laboratory has endorsed their conclusion that the dating should be dismissed outright.
Mainstream Scientific Standing: Until now, the broader scientific community—including hundreds of professionals in radiocarbon dating—continues to regard the 1988 result as fundamentally sound, pending additional evidence. That’s why I described the carbon dating as a cornerstone of mainstream science—it still is.
No Response? Perhaps that’s because many researchers view the statistical arguments in the 2019 paper as already embedded in earlier critiques and not grounds for dismissing the whole test. Silence does not equal assent—it often signals lack of consensus or perceived lack of novelty.
Finally, I understand you may not want a running dialogue, but when scientific claims are made publicly, especially with strong language like “collapsed building,” they deserve scrutiny. I don’t doubt your sincerity in wanting the truth known—but the truth, especially in science, is usually more complicated than a single paper or dataset can resolve.
Where is the “wow” from Oxford, Arizona, Zurich, the British Museum, the Archdiocese of Turin, and hundreds of PhD candidates in the field of radiocarbon dating looking for an interesting topic. For a little bit more reading check out where I became familiar with this topic.
1) Absence of evidence? Make it up!
The Medieval Shroud
https://medievalshroud.com › absence-of-evidence-make…
Aug 12, 2024 — Tristan Casabianca did not “sue” the British Museum, nor did he “force the carbon-14 scientists to publish the raw data.” Most of them were dead …
2) Liars, Damned Liars and Statisticians
The Medieval Shroud
https://medievalshroud.com › liars-damned-liars-and-stati…
Sep 19, 2021 — After the release of the British Museum data, Tristan Casabianca, Emanuela Marinelli (both convinced authenticists and neither of them …
3) The very definition of pseudo-science
The Medieval Shroud
https://medievalshroud.com › the-very-definition-of-pse…
Jun 18, 2024 — Fourthly, when Tristan Casabianca visited the British Museum to examine their archives, he discovered nothing that added significantly to what …
4) The Radiocarbon Data were correct (!)
The Medieval Shroud
https://medievalshroud.com › the-radiocarbon-data-were…
Sep 22, 2023 — … Tristan Casabianca, Emanuela Marinelli, Giuseppe Pernagallo and Benedetto Torrisi, of whom the first two are enthusiastic authenticists, and …
5)The Ungracious Guest
The Medieval Shroud
https://medievalshroud.com › the-ungracious-guest
Jun 30, 2022 — … Tristan Casabianca asked for it, he got it. The first person to examine the radiocarbon data critically was Remi van Haelst, in 1997. He …
Best regards
Interesting how just a few words of mine, results in an avalanche of words trying to dispute what was said. Very telling. It takes more words and mental gymnastics to overcome a truth than it takes to simply state the truth.
If “where you became familiar with this topic” is the site of a known skeptic, no wonder you side with them. Well I’m afraid I haven’t time to read all those posts right now, but if two of them state in the very first sentence that the opponents are “convinced” or “enthusiastic authenticists”, that doesn’t speak well. They should focus on actual scientific arguments rather than making ad hominem attacks.
Hi Gerardo,
Your comments are always so pertinent! Not necessarily correct, of course, but always pertinent.
Is calling somebody a convinced authenticist an ad hominem attack, do you think? I don’t think I’d bridle if anybody called me a convinced medievalist. Or do you think that neither Tristan Casabianca nor Emanuela Marinelli are as convinced as I think they are?
And, not that I expect you to read my posts, but if you did, I think you’d find that my entire ‘focus’ is indeed on ‘scientific arguments.’
But I think you know that really.
Best wishes,
Hugh
It’s very curious: every comment has a “Reply” link at the bottom, but Hugh’s answer below hasn’t. So I’m replying here.
Calling someone a convinced authenticist of course implies that they are biased and therefore it is a way to undermine the validity of their arguments. I could have been excessive to call it an “attack” but sure it is an “ad hominem” argument.
I know that you are good at scientific arguments, but you are also good at rhetorics, and attaching that label at the very beginning of your posts is indeed a clever rhetorical device to get the reader on your side before he even starts reading the actual arguments. That works even if that wasn’t your intention — but you’re too intelligent to not know that, so claiming it wasn’t your intention would be quite naive.
Hi Gerardo,
I think the reply / no reply thing is something to do with layers of stacking, which I always find confusing anyway.
As for the rest, well, mea culpa. You’re absolutely right, of course, but then, my blog is a) mine and b) a collection not of peer-reviewed scientific papers but of personal discoveries and opinions. If the clever rhetorical device works, then splendid, that’s fine by me, but if it doesn’t, well, never mind, it suggests that a more discerning reader has found his way into these abstruse academic thickets….
Over and over again.
Here is the section “Krytyka statystyczna wyników datowania radiowęglowego Całunu” (“Statistical Criticism of the Radiocarbon Dating Results”) from my 2020 article “Jak obalono datowanie C-14 Całunu Turyńskiego z 1988 r.” (“How the 1988 C-14 dating of the Shroud of Turin was debunked”, link : https://www.apologetyka.info/ateizm/jak-obalono-datowanie-c-14-caunu-turynskiego-z-1988-r,1291.htm ), translated by Chat GPT:
The criticism of the 1988 radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin generally follows two main paths. One is statistical criticism of the obtained results, pointing out inconsistencies both in the reported figures for individual datings and in the mutual disagreement of specific measurements—making it impossible to reliably average them into a single meaningful result. The second path is material-based criticism, primarily arguing that the sample taken did not come from the original fabric, but from a part of the Shroud that had been restored using newer materials.
Statistical Criticism of the Radiocarbon Dating Results
The first line of criticism concerns the statistical analysis of the published radiocarbon dating results. The partial results reported (each laboratory performed several measurements on its samples from the Shroud—Arizona 4, Oxford 3, Zurich 5) are statistically inconsistent with each other. This path of criticism is more accessible, as it does not require direct access to the Shroud samples—it’s enough to analyze the published data. Accordingly, the earliest criticism of the Damon et al. 1989 study focused precisely on this issue and quickly revealed numerous discrepancies. A multitude of publications has been written on the statistics of the Shroud’s radiocarbon dating; I will not discuss each individually, but rather summarize the main conclusions that emerge from them [6].
Here, it is necessary to clarify a few issues, particularly the methodology and limitations of statistical criticism. These matters can be quite complex and ambiguous—such is the nature of statistics.
Every physical measurement, such as determining the amount of carbon-14, carries a certain margin of error relative to the true value. This error may stem from (1) poorly conducted measurements, (2) certain effects that distort the measurement’s accuracy (systematic errors), and (3) inherent uncertainty caused by many unknown and random factors (statistical error). In the case of C-14 dating, this third type of error includes the nature of the measurement itself (since whether a C-14 atom decays or not is a random event that can still be statistically estimated), as well as all kinds of instrumental uncertainties and sensor precision.
As a result, each measurement varies to some degree, and this variation can usually be estimated—hence results are given with a “+/-” value indicating the estimated error margin. When there are multiple measurements (N), one needs to determine a final value by averaging, excluding outliers (i.e., results considered flawed), and reporting a mean with an estimated error of that mean, calculated using appropriate methods.
Partial results should, of course, deviate on both sides of this mean in a pattern consistent with the assumed statistical distribution that theoretically describes this spread—typically a Gaussian (normal) distribution, since most widely-used theoretical distributions tend to converge toward it with larger sample sizes.
The problem arises when the spread of partial results is inconsistent with the assumed theoretical distribution. There are various ways to assess this. The classical approach is hypothesis testing (frequentist approach), where a statistical hypothesis about the expected distribution of results is formulated. Based on the values obtained, a test statistic is calculated, which itself follows a known distribution. One then determines the probability of obtaining a test statistic at least as extreme as the observed one, assuming the initial hypothesis is true—this probability is called the p-value or level of significance. A critical significance level is then adopted (typically 5%, sometimes 1%, or even as strict as the famous “5 sigma” threshold in particle physics, meaning a deviation with a probability of about 1 in 3 million).
Conceptually, that’s the idea. One might rightly ask: what does this really mean? Critics say it means nothing in a strictly logical sense, because we cannot assign probabilities to single events (like whether a specific experiment yields a certain p-value or whether the universe exists at all). Nevertheless, a low significance level suggests we should distrust the null hypothesis—this could be good news, e.g., when we want to believe a signal represents the Higgs boson rather than random noise. But logically, that still isn’t proof—it’s technically a fallacy, yet science often relies on such “fallacious” reasoning.
Today, an alternative to the frequentist approach is growing in popularity: the Bayesian approach, based on Bayes’ Theorem. In this method, several models with various parameters are assumed, and the one with the highest likelihood (the probability of observing our data given that model) is selected. I refer readers to my article on Bayes’ Theorem [7].
How This Applies to the Shroud of Turin
The final result of the C-14 dating is a radiocarbon age of the Shroud plus or minus a margin of error, indicating a confidence interval within which the Shroud likely originated—usually assumed at 95% confidence. That is, one number (or two, if we include the error). Within this error range, the partial results from different laboratories should fall, distributed according to a normal (Gaussian) or similar distribution (e.g., Student’s t-distribution).
But they don’t—unlike control samples of known age. Independent statistical analyses have shown that the numbers reported in Damon et al. 1989 “don’t add up.” Not only do calculations based on the partial results fail to match the published outcome in Nature (even when following the procedures cited in the paper), but the reported chi-squared test significance level of 5% (already near the critical threshold) is actually closer to 1%. Other statistical tests also indicate heterogeneity in the results.
Specifically, the results from Arizona and Oxford, taken from opposite ends of the radiocarbon sample, are mutually inconsistent. There’s also evidence of a systematic effect—statistically, it appears there’s a significant correlation between the measured age and the sample’s position along the long edge of the Shroud (a “date gradient”). The age difference between the two ends of the radiocarbon sample is nearly 200 years (while the typical statistical error of radiocarbon dating is only a few decades). This means that the final result—1260–1390 AD—averaged from partial results, is MEANINGLESS. It’s like averaging a human with a dog and concluding that mammals have three legs. It’s just as senseless to average the statistically inconsistent results from Arizona and Oxford. The presence of a date gradient also suggests something’s wrong—how can one end of a small strip of fabric date to about 700 years ago, and a few centimeters away, it’s 200 years older? The Shroud should be a uniform textile: any sample taken should yield the same age within the margin of error.
Thus, we cannot draw reliable conclusions about the entire Shroud’s age based on a single sample from the corner—especially one that seems statistically flawed!
Or rather, it seems flawed. It’s important to remember that this is statistics: it cannot provide definitive proof. The tests indicate low statistical homogeneity and a significant spatial correlation between the sample’s position and the obtained age. But why this happens, statistics alone cannot answer. One possibility is the presence of reweaving with newer materials—different proportions of new and old fabric would yield varying results. But other factors may also be at play—like minor surface contamination. The labs used different cleaning techniques; perhaps some didn’t clean the sample thoroughly, resulting in modest errors of 100–200 years. However, the control samples dated correctly across all labs, undermining this theory.
This would mean the Shroud doesn’t date to 1260–1390 as officially stated (a date which, incidentally, aligns with the earliest documented appearances of the Shroud in Lirey, France, around 1356—but that could be a coincidence), but possibly to 1100–1200. There’s historical testimony from the knight Robert de Clari, who saw a Shroud in Constantinople in 1203–1204, and illustrations in the 12th-century Hungarian Pray Codex bear notable similarities to features of the Shroud.
Even this, however, would still undermine the Shroud’s authenticity as a 1st-century relic! After all, statistics alone can’t shift the dating from the 13th–14th century back to the 1st century—but it doesn’t exclude that possibility either. If the sample was a mix of 1st-century and newer material, and the proportions were the same in each lab’s sub-sample, even a statistically “normal” result wouldn’t reveal the mixture.
Likewise, the observed date gradient is a statistical phenomenon and shouldn’t be extrapolated beyond the sampled area. It’s also possible that everything was fine and the statistical deviations are just random noise—after all, a significance level of 1–2% means that such an anomalous result should occur 1–2% of the time even if the dating was perfect. But dating, like any historical event, happens only once—this isn’t Groundhog Day.
Conclusion
In summary, statistical criticism asserts that the results of the 1988 radiocarbon dating of the Shroud CANNOT BE TRUSTED (by the usual standards of scientific reliability), and SUGGESTS that something went wrong—but does NOT PROVE it. To prove it, one would need material-based criticism: examining the samples themselves to determine whether they were in some way “inappropriate” and whether the dating shift from the 1st to the 13th–14th century is physically plausible.
[…]
Footnote [6] In-depth statistical analyses of the radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin have been conducted, among others, by Remi Van Haelst:
Radiocarbon Dating The Shroud: A Critical Statistical Analysis (1997) – http://www.shroud.com/vanhels3.htm
Radiocarbon Dating: The Shroud of Turin: The Nature Report (1999) – http://www.shroud.com/vanhels5.pdf
Studying Radiocarbon Papers May Solve the Enigma of the Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin (2010) – https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/vanhaelst7.pdf
Analyzing Radiocarbon Data Using Burr Statistics (2011) – http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/vanhaelst8.pdf
A Critical Review of the Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin, ANOVA – A Useful Method to Evaluate Sets of High Precision AMS Radiocarbon Measurements, in: Proceedings of the International Workshop on the Scientific Approach to the Acheiropoietos Images, ENEA Frascati, Italy, 4–6 May 2010 – http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/VanHaelstWeb.pdf
Regarding the age gradient:
Bryan Walsh, The 1988 Shroud of Turin Radiocarbon Tests Reconsidered, in: Proceedings of the 1999 Shroud of Turin International Research Conference, Richmond, Virginia (2000)
Updated publication: Bryan Walsh, Larry Schwable, An Instructive Inter-laboratory Comparison: The 1988 Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin, Journal of Archaeological Science: Reports, Volume 29, February 2020, 102015 – https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X19301865
Riani, M., Atkinson, A. C., Fanti, G., and Crosilla, F. (2013), Regression Analysis with Partially Labelled Regressors: Carbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin, Statistics and Computing, 23(4): 551–561 – http://www.riani.it/pub/RAFC2012.pdf
Another version of this publication: A Robust Statistical Analysis of the 1988 Turin Shroud Radiocarbon Analysis, in: Proceedings of the International Workshop on the Scientific Approach to the Acheiropoietos Images, ENEA Frascati, Italy, 4–6 May 2010 – http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/RianiWeb.pdf
Also presented at the 2017 Pasco conference – http://www.shroudresearch.net/hproxy.php/conference-2017.html
A popular summary of this research can be found in:
Giulio Fanti, Saverio Gaeta, The Mystery of the Shroud: Amazing Scientific Discoveries Regarding the Shroud of Turin, Wydawnictwo św. Stanisława, 2015, pp. 41–75.
Also noteworthy:
J. Andres Christen, Summarizing a Set of Radiocarbon Determinations: A Robust Approach, Journal of the Royal Statistical Society. Series C (Applied Statistics), Vol. 43, No. 3 (1994), pp. 489–503, used Bayesian methods to identify the two extreme measurements from Arizona and Oxford as outliers.
Darshi Arachige, Revisiting the Analysis of 1988 Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin, Advances in Social Sciences Research Journal, 4(13), 16–23 (2017), although acknowledging the statistical inconsistencies in the 1988 dating results, argues that these do not suffice to shift the dating back to the 1st century—misunderstanding the essence of the issue.
A significant study is:
T. Casabianca, E. Marinelli, G. Pernagallo, B. Torrisi, Radiocarbon Dating of the Turin Shroud: New Evidence from Raw Data, Archaeometry, 61(5), 1223–1231 (2019), as it uses recently disclosed raw data not included in the Damon et al. 1989 publication, discussed in the section “Disclosure of New Data.”
And the nice guy Chat GPT evaluated this (I did not tell him I was the author!) and summarized it, preparing this comment below:
Chat GPT’s evaluation:
Overall assessment:
This is a thoughtful, well-informed critique of the 1988 radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin, particularly from a statistical standpoint. While it doesn’t prove the dating is wrong, it effectively raises serious questions about the internal consistency of the data and the interpretation methods used.
Chat GPT’s short summary:
There are two main types of criticism of the 1988 radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin:
Statistical – The results from the three labs (Arizona, Oxford, Zurich) are not statistically consistent. Independent analyses show discrepancies and even an “age gradient” within the sample. This suggests the reported date (1260–1390) is based on flawed averaging.
Material-based – The sample may have come from a repaired or contaminated part of the Shroud. If newer threads were woven in, the dating reflects the repair, not the original cloth.
Bottom line: Statistics show that something went wrong. Material analysis may explain what. Both critiques together raise serious doubts about the reliability of the 1988 dating.
Hi Jim,
Good of you to drop by, although I’m sorry you’re not sufficiently interested in the Shroud to maintain a dialogue. I’m also sorry that you are so unfamiliar with Tristan Casablanca’s paper. Of course they didn’t pore over 700 pages of data – I’ve read them, and most of them have nothing to do with the statistics; they’re largely letters, of inquiry, of criticism and of review. Nor did they discover that the chi-squared significance error was 1.4%. That had already been discovered, and published, in 1997 by Remi van Haelst.
As to denying the conclusion, why should anybody? The paper usefully demonstrates a chronological gradient along the radiocarbon sample, explaining, rather than refuting, the anomaly the daters themselves had observed. The paper does not say that the dating was invalid, nor that the Shroud is not medieval, only that the precision of the errors was unreliable – which we agree with.
In short, you are not “sharing the facts as was published in their peer reviewed data.” Let’s face it; you haven’t actually read it, have you?
Best wishes,
Hugh
In fact I did read that paper. Rather presumptuous of you to imply otherwise.
You will always have the last word Hugh. And usually you use more words than necessary.
This is one reason why carrying on a dialogue with skeptics is not worth it.
You and Dan will only prove the truth of this by further responses using many words. I choose to employ an economy of words. “It is finished.”
I definitely disagree that demonstrating a chronological gradient “explains” the anomaly in the dating. It sheds some light on the nature of the anomaly, but it doesn’t say anything on *why* there is an anomaly at all. That remains unexplained. It is very superficial to believe that since we’ve found a gradient then we’ve understood and there’s nothing to worry about and the dating is just as valid.
In fact, the existence of a gradient is proof that *the measured radiocarbon date does not match the true age of the cloth*, because if it did match, all the subsamples would necessarily give the same date (with differences due *only* to statistical variability). The mismatch may be only of a few years and not have an impact on the question “is the Shroud medieval or from the times of Jesus” — or it may not. How can you tell, if you don’t know what is *the cause* of the gradient? How do you know that the date shift is 50 years older on a side and 50 years younger on the other side and it isn’t 1300 and 1400 years?
In the radiocarbon community there is indeed an unfortunate cavalier attitude with outliers. It seems they accept that sometimes datings can just go wrong and when that happens you can simply throw away the bad date and go on as if it didn’t exist. Very rarely, if at all, they try to find out *why* the date came out bad — especially if they haven’t a problem with it being bad. The presumption that the gradient can be ignored comes from the same attitude. So yes, it’s in line with standard practice. But no, it isn’t good science.
If, because of Tristan Casabianca’s statistical reassessment of the raw radiocarbon data, we can reasonably adjust the date of the Shroud into the 12th or even the late 11th century, then an exciting alternative scenario emerges—one that is far more historically grounded than many assume.
It’s not hard to imagine how it might have happened. In the waning decades of the 12th century, amid the fractured politics and flourishing trade routes of the Eastern Mediterranean, relics were currency—not just of faith, but of power, prestige, and profit. In a dusty back alley of some Levantine or Anatolian casbah, an enterprising craftsman, perhaps a monk, perhaps a merchant, creates an extraordinary object: a burial cloth bearing the haunting image of a man who has been crucified. The materials are common—linen, pigment, perhaps a reactive agent no longer understood. But the result is singular. The image is faint yet evocative. The bloodstains are deliberately placed. The pose is unmistakable. It is, to the eye of a medieval Christian, unmistakably Jesus.
Was it meant to deceive? Not necessarily. In a world saturated with relics—bones of saints, splinters of the True Cross, tears of the Virgin—many such objects straddled the line between devotion and invention. Whether for piety, politics, or profit, the Shroud is created and quietly passes into circulation, perhaps into the hands of a wealthy patron or minor noble. It makes its way to Constantinople, a city already filled with sacred treasures from across the Christian world.
There it is seen by Robert de Clari, a French knight with the Fourth Crusade, who testifies in 1203–1204 that he saw “the cloth in which our Lord had been wrapped,” bearing the figure of Christ, displayed weekly in the Church of Myra. His account is not a fable; it is a firsthand observation, one of the few surviving from that moment of cultural collision. Shortly after, Constantinople falls to the Crusaders, and the fate of countless relics—including that cloth—is lost to the upheaval.
Around the same time, an anonymous Hungarian scribe composes the Pray Codex, illustrating scenes from the Gospels with curious features: a burial scene with a naked Christ, hands folded awkwardly across the groin, and a shroud marked by a herringbone weave and four mysterious “poker holes” arranged in an L-shape—features uncannily similar to those found on the Shroud of Turin today. Coincidence? Perhaps. But if the object already existed in the late 12th century, it is entirely plausible that it served as a visual reference, or even inspiration, for the codex illuminator.
What emerges is not a miraculous mystery nor a crude medieval hoax, but something more human—and more historically credible. A Shroud created intentionally, centuries before it was revealed in France. A devotional object with roots in a world where sacred artifacts were made, revered, and circulated across cultures. An image that accumulated legend, not because it descended from heaven, but because it rose from the very real soil of faith and imagination.
That it still baffles us today is not necessarily proof of the supernatural. It may simply be the echo of medieval ingenuity—and of a story passed down, retold, and finally mistaken for history itself.
Hi, Dan,
I just have time for a quick response.
Regarding the open access “pay-to-play” remark. The journal I published in is not listed as a “predatory journal” and what you call “pay-to-play” is inaccurate. In fact, its really as situation of “[author] pays so that the reader can read without paying.” For anyone who does serious research and reads scholarly journals, many of the journals are inaccessible without paying, typically, about $40.00 or so.
Sometimes, an abstract is given (so you’ve got some sort of idea as to what is in the paper) and sometimes an abstract is not given–and one debates whether they want to drop $40 for a paper that might be useless to them. So, lots of important information gets put behind paywalls. So, if an author wants their work to get read by more people, one makes it FREE (open-access.) And, many of the very top journals charge a FORTUNE to publish with them. Well, most people either do not have the means to pay those large sums of money or are unwilling to. So, really, let the author’s work speak for itself and judge it on its merits (or lack thereof.)
Now, with regard to the big bogeyman chasing the Shroud’s authenticity–the 1988 radiocarbon dating results. Well, it really is akin to an “imaginary” evil spirit used to frighten the children (of God.) (And, I’m sure there will be people that will slice up what I’m saving and lust quote part of it in the future in order to make me look “anti-Science,” but that will be perpetrating a fraud on people. If people do it, I’II quote what I’ve said in full and show them to be deceptive and manipulative. Anyhow, as I continue, radiocarbon dating is not “imaginary” in the sense that it is junk science. No, not at all. But, every test has limitations to its reliability. And, some tests have more limits to their reliability than others.
I know that people on both sides of the debate regarding the aforementioned radiocarbon dating results make great arguments. And, you know what I say:
GREAT! Whether the 1988 results were correct or not, they can both be used to point to the Shroud’s authenticity! (I won’t try to explain the intricacies of Bob Rucker’s hypothesis and analyses, but I invite people to examine them for themselves.) But, on the other side of the coin, Joe Marino and his late wife Sue Benford (and then confirmed by Ray Rogers and others) make POWERFUL arguments WITH LOTS OF EVIDENCE for there having been an invisible reweave at the very area that the cloth was cut for testing. There’s nothing difficult to believe about this as the testing area was in the area where people were holding the edge of the cloth for displaying it and folding it. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that this puts stress on a cloth–particularly one as old as the Shroud of Turin. This is just common sense.
Joe has written about evidence that there have been numerous repairs to the Shroud because of the need to mend areas due to handling (this is independent of the patches put on by the Poor Clare nuns after the Fire of 1532.) So, why do people persist in in the fiction that a high-quality invisible reweaving technique is a fiction? I ask: Where is the evidence ON THE CLOTH of those documented mendings, huh? WE DO NOT SEE THEM, right? Hence, those were “invisibly repaired,” also–unless some conspiracy theorist wants to argue that this documentation was “planted” before Joe and Sue ever even came up with their evidence-based hypothesis and Rogers shored it up.
But, back to the C-14 testing. I am most definitely not known for my brevity.
However, (perhaps a miracle, itself!), I can easily NEUTRALIZE the C-14 results so that they pose NO HARM to the Holy Shroud’s authenticity. How do I argue this? Well, Beta-Analytics (and I’ve been arguing this publicly since at least
October of 2020) is the largest radiocarbon dating company in the world (based on the information that I had read–probably from their own website.) Going from memory, but people can easily google them and double-check, they are based out of Florida. Go to their website and see what they say when the topic of radiocarbon dating a TEXTILE (SUCH AS THE SHROUD) comes up. They explicitly state–go see it for yourself–that radiocarbon dating a textile should be part of a MULTI-DISCIPLINARY PROCESS. Now, it doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines here, does it? What that means is that the radiocarbon dating of textiles can be UNRELIABLE. So, it is imperative (as any archeologist would tell you) that you look to see what other pieces of evidence (if available) inform about the date of the textile being dated. So, again, as any archeologist worth their salt knows, if, at a site, there are one or more artifacts around a cloth that yield a date (or have something on them that signals to experts how old the item is based on other factors), then that is a very, very credible and serious indication that something went wrong with the radiocarbon dating results.
Additionally, Beta-Analytics mentions on their website about how one should NOT SMOKE around a sample that is to be tested. WHY NOT? If their cleaning process is so great, why can’t I smoke a pack of Marlboros and blow smoke directly onto the sample to be tested? Well, I think the answer is obvious, yes?
Additionally, why does the Beta-Analytics website mention that there can be challenges radiocarbon dating samples that have sustained water damage. Well, the cloth that was radiocarbon dated came from an area that was water-stained (and heavily handled and polluted contaminated by countless hands.) So, here we have another very serious (and very easy to understand) problem.
So, while it’s great that people can lampoon the reliability of the C-14 tests through far more geeky and sophisticated ways, this ol’ Texas lawyer can shoot it down with the “testimony” of the biggest radiocarbon dating company in the world. If they don’t know what they’re talking about, who does?
Hugh has mentioned before how he contacted some random representative from Beta-Analytics about ?2 years ago. He and I duked that out already, and I showed that there were problems with his not-very-high-up-the-food-chain-source.
And, ultimately, it really doesn’t matter what some random rep that’s not the head honcho says. The website for this important, for-profit corporation speaks for itself. If nothing else, Hugh raised this issue to a representative of Beta-Analytics about 2 years ago. The fact that they hadn’t removed those caveat that I mention from their website points to those caveats being TRUE.
Additionally, what Beta-Analytics posts is a sort of admission against their own interest–which is always the “gold-standard” for reliable information as no sane person or organization seeks to undermine their credibility, value, etc. Beta-Analytics is, I would imagine, a very substantial corporation, and by admitting what they did, they are admitting the LIMITATIONS of the reliability of the radiocarbon dating of textiles.
With regard to the other issues, we’ve discussed these ad nauseam. While I’d still have fun discussing them, I’ve got to get back to work. For people to learn more about the topics that I did not respond to, just look at various STURP papers that have been published on shroud.com or even look to discussions about these topics on this website. And, people should understand, we do not always have the time to respond to remarks. So, a lack of a response should not be construed as an inability to respond.
And, yes, the evidence for the Shroud’s authenticity meets the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. The operative word being “reasonable.” There is too much of a mountain of evidence that points to authenticity for it to be anything else than the authentic burial cloth of Christ. Any singular piece of evidence will have tiny little areas where a skeptic can try and poke holes with the “what if” game. But, please, show me an example of something that has a many, many pieces of strong (but not 100% perfect) evidence that comes from different sources and different fields of study with regard to a certain proposition, but that the proposition is false. As to identity, the puncture wounds around the head are the clincher. There is only ONE person known in all of history to be crucified with a crown of thorns: JESUS OF NAZARETH!
I leave you and Hugh with a challenge: See if you all can imagine a situation (or know of a situation–which you all will not) where something has so much evidence pointing to its being what it is purported to be, but it is not. Again, the evidence needs to be very varied and from different disciplines. Show me something that even remotely approximates the Shroud situation, and then we’ll take it from there.
Well, gotta get back to work,
Teddi
Hi Teddi!
I will respond to your e-mail soon. I am so busy and absorbed on many fronts nowadays that I cannot make it all in time.
In fact, its “[author] pays so that the reader can read without paying.” For anyone who does serious research and reads scholarly journals, many of the journals are inaccessible without paying, typically, about $40.00 or so. Sometimes, an abstract is given (so you’ve got some sort of idea as to what is in the paper) and sometimes an abstract is not given–and one debates whether they want to drop $40 for a paper that might be useless to them.
In astronomy you have (almost) everything for free:
https://arxiv.org/archive/astro-ph
https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/
if not a full paper than at least preprint on arXiv.
Hi Teddi!
I sent you e-mail but apparently my mailbox and yours don’t like each other and I receive hard bounces all the time. Do you have some alternative adress?
It seems to me that I’m not as smart as everyone else who has written in this Blog post, since I can’t understand how Dan can say that ‘the (carbon) dating remains a cornerstone of the mainstream scientific view’ and Hugh can say that the Casablanca’s paper ‘does not say that the dating was invalid, nor that the Shroud is not medieval, only that the precision of the (statistical) errors was unreliable’. Unless the conclusions of the Casablanca’s paper are themselves ‘unreliable’ (which, as far as I can tell, no one has claimed), how can it be said that the dating is the ‘cornerstone of the mainstream scientific view’ if its statistical precision is unreliable?”
Hugh, Dan and Tristan Casbianca are all right -but they say different things.
Dan: “‘the (carbon) dating remains a cornerstone of the mainstream scientific view’ ” -yes, but mainstream is ignorant about the Shroud 1988 dating problem, and wrong in its crowd opinion.
Hugh: “does not say that the dating was invalid, nor that the Shroud is not medieval, only that the precision of the (statistical) errors was unreliable” -yes, the Shroud still could be medieval. But the results are unreliable from the statistical point of view. That means they are untrustworthy and the average date provided is likely wrong. But this does not mean that the Shroud is necessarily from the 1st century. It may be but we don’t know this from statistical analysis. Statistics does not say what is the physical reason of this unreliability of 1988 dating.
And finally Rogers in his 2005 paper: https://www.sindone.info/ROGERS-3.PDF pg. 193
“The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis/ms proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample
was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud. ”
I agree with Rogers. He did provide the answer. That was later on ignored as politically incorrect by the mainstream.
Thanks O.K. for your comment, but I think this deserves some clarification.
You said that the mainstream is “ignorant” of the 1988 carbon dating problem and “wrong in its crowd opinion.” But if mainstream is wrong, we have to ask: Who, specifically, in the wider academic or scientific community—not just within the circle of Shroud authenticity proponents—is saying so?
Let’s be clear: Oxford, Arizona, and Zürich have not retracted, revised or even revisited their results. The British Museum, which coordinated the testing, has stood by the conclusions. The journal Nature, which published the results, has not issued a correction or retraction or caution.
To this day, no peer-reviewed study by a major academic lab has challenged the 1988 results or argued that the Shroud is definitively older than the medieval range.
On social media, yes, there are pockets of activity—some YouTube videos, blog posts, niche websites. a TikTok here and there—but much of this is self-referential and largely aimed at audiences who already believe. It doesn’t represent a shift in the scientific consensus. It’s a closed loop, not an expanding front. I’m sticking with cornerstone for now.
Does anybody really think that Oxford, Arizona and Zurich would admit an error in their testing????? After all the good notoriety they got after the test? No way. Christopher Ramsey, who had been involved at Oxford in 1988 and is now head of the lab, admitted more research needed to be done. And I’ll repeat again since it’s worth repeating, I and others maintain that only 1 controversial sample tells us nothing about the date of the Shroud.
Let’s be clear: Oxford, Arizona, and Zürich have not retracted, revised or even revisited their results. The British Museum, which coordinated the testing, has stood by the conclusions. The journal Nature, which published the results, has not issued a correction or retraction or caution.
Why should they if it is not in their own interest? Why should they undermine their own results and credibility? Remember, mainstream always follows what is politically correct. Not what is the truth.
Remember. Rogers was an independent researcher, and best specialist in Shroud’s chemistry. His reexamination of the C-14 sample was not officially authorized by Turin. He was given the Raes and C-14 samples in an unofficial cooperation with Gonella and Riggi. He thoroughly examined them, and concluded they were not part of the original Shroud. Which was really politically incorrect (and Rogers, a typical example of honest but socially awkward scientist, was apparently not aware of this). Because of the blame game, who was responsible for the apparent fiasco. The C-14 labs or the Archidiocese of Turin (which provided the samples). Neither side would officially acknowledge their fault. The labs would say simply the Archidiocese provided wrong samples. And because Rogers obtained his samples in an unofficial way, Archidiocese had no obligation to confirm their authenticiity or to conform to his conclusions. And they apparently did not understand his objections and were freaked about their own reputation. In their eyes, Rogers could be another lunatic trying to undermine the well attested scientific method.
And besides the 1988 Shroud C-14 datings are just one mesurement. They may be wrong for any peculiar reason. But it doesn’t undermine the general reliability of the C-14 method.
To this day, no peer-reviewed study by a major academic lab has challenged the 1988 results or argued that the Shroud is definitively older than the medieval range.
Why should there be any peer-reviewed study by “a major academic lab” if they do not have access to relevant samples from the Shroud? Only Rogers had access to the samples from both the main part of the Shroud and C-14 corner. There is also the retained part of Arizona sample, and it was very briefly examined by Jull & Freer-Waters paper. But not as thoroughly as Rogers did. The sample is now in Arizona State Museum and no one is interested about it.
The Shroud science is very limited, you know. Like all the niche studies of strange artifacts. It is quite normal that all the studies are limited to the small circle of people who are fascinated by the topic. The scientific consensus is: C-14 method is generally reliable, but not infallible. In some particular cases there may be wrong results (like in any scientific method) for specific reasons. The flawed 1988 C-14 datings of the Shroud do not undermine this. And about the Shroud: most of the scientist, even C-14 specialists do not know what exactly did happen -and they are not particularly interested. They may have whatever their own personal views, but they have their own everyday job to do.
Hi OK,
I’m afraid I disagree that mainstream scientific thinking is ignorant of the controversy surrounding the radiocarbon date. It is not that dissenting views have been ignored; they have been read, considered, and rejected as serious refutations of the original result.
As for Rogers, I have written two open letters to him recently (yes, I know he won’t reply!) describing in detail exactly why I find his paper unsatisfactory. “Dear Mr Rogers”, medievalshroud.com. Please don’t read them, as I know you don’t want to tarnish your admiration for him, but just allow me to disagree.
Best wishes,
Hugh
Hi Gonzalo!
Why not read Casabianca’s paper for yourself, and then you will be closer to understanding it. The bottom line for “the mainstream scientific view,” if there is such a thing, is that twelve little pieces of the Shroud were all dated by making several measurements of each one’s radiocarbon content, and every single measurement placed the Shroud in the late Middle Ages. Without knowing the order in which the samples were taken along the sample strip, it was not possible to detect the slight chronological gradient, so the statistics used to correlate the various measurements, designed to cope with contemporaneous samples, detected an anomaly, but not the reason for it. Now that we know about the gradient, the anomaly is explained. That’s what Casabianca’s paper says: “statistical analysis suggests … that homogeneity is lacking in the data and that the procedure should be reconsidered.” Naturally, the evidence that there is a gradient will affect statistics designed to assume that there isn’t, and the precision of the quoted 95% interval, but only very slightly.
Dear Hugh,
I believe I may not have expressed myself clearly in my previous comment, or perhaps you misunderstood my point. Allow me to restate it more simply. My concern is that, nowadays, radiocarbon dating cannot continue to be the “cornerstone of the mainstream scientific view” regarding the Shroud of Turin, given that the study by Damon et al. contains evident statistical errors (as analyzed by Casabianca et al.), which diminish the strength of the evidence supporting its conclusions. That is my sole point.
Regarding other aspects of your comment, I won’t take offense at your suggestion to read Casabianca’s article. However, I believe that starting your comment with such a “recommendation” (without knowing me) does not contribute to the discussion and seems (at least to me) to establish a kind of “argument from authority.” That is, since you have read the article, everything you say is the truth, whereas I, supposedly not having read it, lack the authority to discuss it.
It seems to me that the gradient does not explain all the statistical inconsistencies in Damon et al.‘s study, as Casabianca detected intra-laboratory inconsistencies (in Zurich, one subsample yielded 595 BP (raw) vs. 679 BP (Nature); Table 1). Additionally, Casabianca notes that Oxford’s samples contained cotton fibers and Arizona’s samples contained a type of wax, which could have selectively altered the C14 results. Finally, the Kruskal-Wallis test on Arizona’s subsamples showed significant heterogeneity, even though the dating in that laboratory was conducted on the same day and with the same parameters.
You mention that the statistical imprecision was “only very slight,” but the OxCal indices are extremely low to establish statistical reliability (Table 3) and invalidate any confidence interval, as such intervals must be calculated on homogeneous data.
In short, once I read Casabianca’s and Damon’s articles, I will be closer to understanding the matter.
Best regards,
Gonzalo
PS: Excuse me, Dan, for replying to Hugh through your blog.
Hi Gonzago,
Thank you. I do understand you, I think, and meant no disrespect when I advised you to read Casabianca’s paper. By doing so, you will be able to point out what you think is a specific “evident statistical error” in the Damon paper, as determined by Casabianca, and I will be able to discuss it further. I too have been to the British Museum and inspected, for three days in a row, all the documentation regarding the radiocarbon date, and do not approve of Casabianca’s Table 1, which is incorrect and deliberately deceptive, although it may possibly be that his (Italian) statisticians did not understand English as well as necessary. I think I cover this in ‘The Radiocarbon Data were correct’ at medievalshroud.com.
I have absolutely no wish to “argue from authority” or to claim that everything I say is the truth simply because I say it. That’s exactly why quoting from the original paper is so important.
Best wishes,
Hugh
Dan, despite the fact that you mention Teddi in the beginning of your post, you apparently are blocking any comments she’s trying to make. This is hardly fair.
Joe. I am not blocking any postings from Teddi. Nor would I. I just checked the spam folder and found several postings from her. I have no idea why they landed in spam. They will appear in the next few minutes as fast as I can pull them out of there.
Dan, thanks. I wasn’t 100% sure which is why I added the word “apparently.”
Joe. Thanks for letting me know there was a problem. There was one other comment from realseakers that fell into the spam folder. I can’t explain it. They should all appear within a few minutes. Joe, I would think you know me better than to think I would block Teddi’s comments on purpose.
Just to assist a little as most do not know what Beyond Reasonable Doubt means and how it is assessed.
Beyond Reasonable Doubt
The science of law reveals that there are many formulae within law whereby “reasonableness is defined e.g.
Wednesbury Principle – “Something is so unreasonable that no reasonable person would do it”
Reasonable person
The reasonable person is someone who is of firm mind and fairminded who is fully conversant of all the facts
Yu and Comcare [2010] AATA 960 (1 December 2010)
“As can be seen, the exclusion is subject to two tests of reasonableness –
the reasonableness of the particular administrative action and the
reasonableness of the manner in which the action was undertaken. The
plain meaning of the word ‘reasonable’ as set out in the Oxford Online
Dictionary conveys, generally, what is meant: proportionate; not irrational,
absurd, or ridiculous; just, legitimate; due, fitting; within the limits of what
it would be rational or sensible to expect; not extravagant or excessive;
moderate. A number of relevant principles can be distilled from the settled
cases. For the particular action to be reasonable it must be lawful.[6] There
must be nothing untoward.[7] It must be attended by circumstances of
fairness.[8] The emotional state and psychological health of the employee
are relevant considerations.[9] Furthermore, the reasonableness of the
particular action must be objectively assessed in the context of the
circumstances and knowledge of those involved at the time.[10]”
Beyond Reasonable Doubt
There are two other legal standards:
i. Reasonable suspicion where this standard is sufficient to commence an investigation but not come to a conclusion.
ii. Balance of probabilities (a 51% likelihood) used as a civil standard and can result in the awarding of millions of dollars
A good illustration of the use of this legal standard is the argument that the Shroud was painted by Leonardo Da Vinci.
1. The STURP team had a reasonable suspicion that the Shroud was a painting before they commenced. But the scientific inspection by STURP of the Shroud showed that it was not painted.
2. After the C14 dating there appeared on the scene those who claimed it was a painting. Those people ignored the scientific findings of STURP.
The unreasonableness of those who still claimed without inspection of the Shroud that it was painted reveals why a Court of Law would reject that as any kind of evidence at all. But, those people still persist today. This demonstrates how the Wednesbury Principle is used, ie. the maintaining that it was painted despite all the scientific evidence is so unreasonable that no reasonable person would do it.
Dear Dan
my last comment I may have ommited the “2.” from the following
2. After the C14 dating there appeared on the scene those who claimed it was a painting. Those people ignored the scientific findings of STURP.
I don’t know how to edit this error
Cheers
Will
The following case is referred to with the object of explaining the need to and to identify relevant issues when assessing forensic science.
A forensic scientist, Yvonne “Missy” Woods, is currently under investigation regarding DNA testing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiQ1X2OJN3w
There have been numerous anomalies that have come to light and the investigation into these anomalies is serious. The police are not only considering the anomalies but also the breach of protocols and unreasonable behaviour.
In the event of prosecution, there is a need to prove the following:
i. Intent; or
ii. Reckless indifference; or
iii. Gross negligence
These things should be reflected in the method used to do the test and analysis i.e. what protocols were followed. If so, was there anything else that could have been reasonably done to ensure reliable and beyond reasonable doubt results. There is a need to find what impact the anomalies have on the level of proof.
Beyond Reasonable Doubt is not 100% proof, it is a lesser level.
The C14 daters asserted that the reliability of their test was 95%. This compares with the well known P value test (see Wiki). In that standard the P value of 0.05 means that anything less than 5% is insignificant. In other words the C14 dater’s claim is saying that their test results are reliable to at least the level of beyond reasonable doubt.
The police investigators understand the impact of the anomalies, protocols and behaviour in terms of evidence and reliability of evidence. There is a need to provide explanation of these things.
In the same manner, the many protocol breaches and other that have been recorded by Joe Marino in “The 1988 C-14 Dating Of The Shroud of Turin: A Stunning Exposé” need to be analysed properly prior to a decision being made on the reliability of the C14.
The C14 daters had a number of options open to them:
i. Provide a reasonable reliability standard;
ii. Not provide any reliability standard;
iii. Adjust the reliability when new evidence came to light.
iv. Retract the reliability level all together.
The anomaly in the Shroud.
When the anomoly was identified the C14 daters did not respond and in law that is an unreasonable act.
https://www.2selborne.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Some-reflections-on-Lis-case-a-new-concept-of-legal-unreasonableness-Cameron-Jackson.pdf
The link argues about the unreasonableness of not giving the right weight to evidence. The C14 daters were indifferent to the anomaly.
The C14 daters were obligated to explain why the sample results contained an anomaly in the form of a pattern in the results that showed that from one end of the sample to the other there was 130 years difference.
The C14 daters failure to address the anomaly then means that they are taking a stance that the pattern continues through 100% of the Shroud. In other words, the stance indicates that the pattern would mean that one end of the Shroud was 16000 years different in age than the other. Applying the test for reasonableness that stance is clearly absurd and is unreasonable.. The test then evidences that the C14 test is clearly unreliable.
If this type of thing is found is found in the current investigation into Missy Woods then the prosecution has a great case.
Hi Will,
I don’t know where you’re going with this, but I can’t agree with anything you’ve said so far. Beginning with a failure to explain clearly what ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ means, or why it is of relevance to the Shroud was a bad start, and imagining that for scientists not to respond to criticism is illegal does not inspire confidence in your argument.
As I understand it, Missy Woods is legally accused of deliberately falsifying evidence used in criminal trials. The radiocarbon teams have not been legally accused of falsifying anything, and their findings have never been used in a criminal trial.
You seem to be suggesting that the discovery of the “chronological gradient” invalidates the 1989 Damon paper, when in fact it does the opposite, explaining the reason for an observed anomaly. It did nothing to discredit the medieval age of the Shroud, so it is pointless to reassess it. In common with most conspiracy theorists, you tend to refer to a mysterious “them” who were indifferent to the anomaly, without identifying who “they” are or demonstrating their indifference. I think you mean Morven Leese, the British Museum statistician at the time, and can assure you that she was far from indifferent, having read her correspondence at the British Museum myself.
And no, “the C14 daters” were certainly not “obligated to explain why the sample results contained an anomaly in the form of a pattern in the results that showed that from one end of the sample to the other there was 130 years difference.” Nor is anyone else. We don’t know the reason for the anomaly, and although various reasons have been suggested, the evidence for any of them is still inadequate for any consensus.
And no, “The C14 daters’ failure to address the anomaly” certainly does not mean “that they are taking a stance that the pattern continues through 100% of the Shroud.” That is a ludicrous extrapolation of the evidence.
You seem to imagine – and why not? I think it would make an entertaining fantasy – that the British Museum could somehow be taken to court for misrepresentation, which you think could then be proved beyond reasonable doubt. As an expert witness, I can assure you it couldn’t, but I would enjoy the challenge!
Best wishes,
Hugh
Dear Hugh
Statement 1
“I don’t know where you’re going with this, but I can’t agree with anything you’ve said so far. Beginning with a failure to explain clearly what ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ means, or why it is of relevance to the Shroud was a bad start, and imagining that for scientists not to respond to criticism is illegal does not inspire confidence in your argument.”
Answer
There was no failure to explain clearly as the terms were listed in the first blog (jovial198317) such as the Wednesbury Principle are available by simply googling. In the same way, links are provided to references for your assistance such as the Cameron Jackson article for detailed explanation.
The relevance to the Shroud was explained because of the C14 asserting of 95% reliability. That claim was tested using the formulae of Legal Science.
I did not use the term ”illegal” but submitted that the C14 assertion did not conform to the methodology to determine the standard of “beyond reasonable doubt”. My blog is directed at educating science to use the formulae that are well established in Legal Science. As for the Missy Wood case this presents an opportunity for scientists to investigate the procedures for establishing levels of proof in all things. At this stage Missy is innocent until proven guilty
Had the C14 daters not provided the 95%, it was an merely an option, then from the date of the published results it would be open discussion and peer review to ensure that a proper level of scientific reliability was maintained. I submitted that the 95% level was not met and that in the realm of Science of Law that assertion would be rejected.
The testing of the C14 daters evidence needs to be done using proper scientific methodology and the Science of Law has those methods.
Statement 2
“As I understand it, Missy Woods is legally accused of deliberately falsifying evidence used in criminal trials. The radiocarbon teams have not been legally accused of falsifying anything, and their findings have never been used in a criminal trial.”
Answer
I agree, but I have referred to the Missy Wood case to show the principles of reasonable assessment required to get a “beyond reasonable doubt” level and a 95% level. Missy Wood is innocent until such time as the jury finds otherwise.
The principles in the Missy Wood case are based on good formulae for assessment. I applied those principles to the C14 daters methods. Those principles can be used throughout the sciences including theological science. Theology speaks of discernment and wisdom and uses exegesis … it woold benefit from the principles of Legal Science which is a branch of Theology.
The use of the Missy Wood case was done so that suggestions that these things are my opinion would be rebutted. It is a visible a real discussion how assessments occur and these formulae need to be applied to all science. Perhaps maths is an exception because it has many absolutes i.e.100% proofs. That level is a very rare found level of proof in other sciences.
These legal principles are found in many other cases and are commonly used as precedents to assess evidence reasonably to different standards such as reasonable suspicion, on the balance of probabilities and beyond reasonable doubt.
The Missy Woods case is used as a comparator so that other sciences can understand how to assess to a high standard instead of using personal assessment with no protocols and methodologies.
Statement 2
“You seem to be suggesting that the discovery of the “chronological gradient” invalidates the 1989 Damon paper, when in fact it does the opposite, explaining the reason for an observed anomaly. It did nothing to discredit the medieval age of the Shroud, so it is pointless to reassess it. In common with most conspiracy theorists, you tend to refer to a mysterious “them” who were indifferent to the anomaly, without identifying who “they” are or demonstrating their indifference. I think you mean Morven Leese, the British Museum statistician at the time, and can assure you that she was far from indifferent, having read her correspondence at the British Museum myself.”
Answer
“ conspiracy theorists” is not science and amounts to an insult.
The gradient demonstrated that the C14 assertion of 95% reliability was wrong. The demonstration that the 95% reliability is inconsistent then removes or reduces one piece of evidence from the Science of the Shroud.
I have not yet made any representations about the impact of what is known as the preponderance of evidence. But that will be relevant in regards to other evidence from the Middle Ages. The removal of the C14 date as reliable evidence reduces the weight of the corroborative evidence for the Middle Ages date.
Statement 4
“And no, “the C14 daters” were certainly not “obligated to explain why the sample results contained an anomaly in the form of a pattern in the results that showed that from one end of the sample to the other there was 130 years difference.” Nor is anyone else. We don’t know the reason for the anomaly, and although various reasons have been suggested, the evidence for any of them is still inadequate for any consensus.”
Answer
The issue is “reasonableness”. On that basis, reasonable behaviour of the C14 daters would have been to lower the 95% reliability assertion or even retract the same until an explanation of the anomaly came to light. It should have been noted in the C14 assessment. You might note that the prosecution may choose to withdraw the charges in the Missy Wood case after examination of all the evidence.
One matter under discussion is to retest all the DNA samples to see if there was a significant difference from the samples taken by Missy Wood. The C14 daters should have taken the advice of the STURP team and used seven samples.
I agree that the reason for the anomaly is not known and that should have been more reason for the C14 to not give a 95% reliability level.
“the C14 daters” were certainly not “obligated to explain why the sample results…” That’s might be a USA freedom of speech conclusion. But, the British Museum might be under a different set of rules and obligations.
“And no, “The C14 daters’ failure to address the anomaly” certainly does not mean “that they are taking a stance that the pattern continues through 100% of the Shroud.” “That is a ludicrous extrapolation of the evidence.”
Answer
“That is a ludicrous extrapolation of the evidence.” The better argument is to use terms such as “illogical” or “absurd” as explained by reference to the Comcare v Yu case.
No. The C14 dating was done to date the whole of the Shroud as such they are stating that the single sample is fully representative of all the Shroud. The STURP team was rejected when it advised that seven samples be taken to get an accurate representation of the date of the whole Shroud.
The C14 daters should have taken the seven samples and therefore an explanation for the anomaly could have been more likely.
It was open to the C14 daters to state that the results could date the sample to the Middle Ages and they could not date the whole Shroud. They chose the unreasonable option and asserted the date applied to the whole Shroud.
Statement 5
“You seem to imagine – and why not? I think it would make an entertaining fantasy – that the British Museum could somehow be taken to court for misrepresentation, which you think could then be proved beyond reasonable doubt. As an expert witness, I can assure you it couldn’t, but I would enjoy the challenge!”
Answer
I have in no place indicated this as the purpose of my blogs are to educate science minded people to use the formulae of the Science of Law to properly assess the evidence before them. After all part of the topic is “Beyond Reasonable Doubt” a well known legal term.
You’re an expert witness and I am a lawyer, historian, theologian and other.
Will
Enough already.
I say that not out of dismissal, but out of long, weary familiarity. We’ve been down this road before — the road where legal reasoning is imported into scientific discourse and held up as if it were the gold standard for truth. It’s a category mistake.
Let’s be clear: Shroud research is primarily scientific and historical, and yes, properly informed by theological interest. But it is not about winning a legal case. It is not about proving something “beyond reasonable doubt” in a courtroom sense, and certainly not subject to the standards or procedures of common law or judicial review. Theories of law — however thoughtful — have no standing in a discussion of carbon dating methodology. This isn’t a courtroom drama. It’s science. History. And faith.
To suggest that the C14 labs’ failure to respond to challenges about an alleged anomaly in the dating pattern somehow constitutes legal “unreasonableness” is not only off the mark — it’s profoundly misleading. A failure to respond does not make the challengers right, or righteous, or even plausible. Silence isn’t assent. And in science, claims must be addressed with evidence, not implication.
As for the so-called “anomaly” — the slight variation in dating from one end of the strip to the other — that’s not an absurdity. It’s exactly the sort of noise you expect in any small sample with slight contamination or statistical uncertainty. It does not imply, as some now bizarrely argue, that the entire Shroud spans thousands of years in age from one end to the other. That’s not a scientific claim — it’s a reductio ad absurdum, and not even an honest one. It’s a straw man constructed to discredit rather than understand.
Now let’s go further: even if you throw out the 1988 C14 test entirely, even if you redate the cloth and confirm a first-century origin — which, by the way, no serious re-testing has done — you’re still left with reasonable doubt that this is Jesus’ burial shroud. First-century linen? That could be many things. A bier cloth used to cover a body in procession? Entirely plausible. A well-crafted object from Syria, Mesopotamia, or India, meant for artistic or devotional use? Also plausible. Those possibilities are more probable, and will be vastly more acceptable to the public at large than theories of vertically collimated radiation or “resurrection energy.” They reflect the reality of a resurrection believed in by faith, rather than one forced into the mold of speculative, doubtable evidence.
In that light, reasonable doubt still prevails — not about the date, perhaps, but about the identification. Reasonable doubt doesn’t disappear simply because a date shifts. That’s not how evidence works, in science or in law.
So let’s stop pretending that a legal standard, borrowed from a completely different domain, somehow invalidates a complex scientific study because of what it didn’t say. The debate about the Shroud is worth having — but it must be done honestly, in the appropriate domain, and with the humility to admit what we can and cannot know.
And let’s leave the Missy Woods case, and legal arguments about weight of evidence, where they belong: in court — not in theological or scientific inquiry.
Dear Dan
My response
Statement 1
“I say that not out of dismissal, but out of long, weary familiarity. We’ve been down this road before — the road where legal reasoning is imported into scientific discourse and held up as if it were the gold standard for truth. It’s a category mistake.”
Answer:
“gold standard” “category mistake” are not scientific statements.
Legal science is essential for understanding a pool of evidence as it directs people to reasonability and honesty. Its not “a category mistake” as data needs to be assessed reasonably and the Science of Law has all the formulae for reasonable assessment.
I understand the role of different sciences very well due to my qualifications MBA (Bus Law) LLM (Leg Prac) LLB BA (Anc Hist) BTh Eng Assoc
I don’t exclude any science. The C14 daters did that when thye excluded the STURP team
Statement 2
“Let’s be clear: Shroud research is primarily scientific and historical, and yes, properly informed by theological interest. But it is not about winning a legal case. It is not about proving something “beyond reasonable doubt” in a courtroom sense, and certainly not subject to the standards or procedures of common law or judicial review. Theories of law — however thoughtful — have no standing in a discussion of carbon dating methodology. This isn’t a courtroom drama. It’s science. History. And faith.”
Answer
Law is a science to interpret the facts. In addition, law is a specialist area of theology. For example one of the central principles of law in jurisprudence is “A Law that God makes is a Good Law”.
The tests in law are used on a daily basis to analyse the worth of science in coming to a reasonable decision. Theology calls this discernment.
Statement 3
“To suggest that the C14 labs’ failure to respond to challenges about an alleged anomaly in the dating pattern somehow constitutes legal “unreasonableness” is not only off the mark — it’s profoundly misleading. A failure to respond does not make the challengers right, or righteous, or even plausible. Silence isn’t assent. And in science, claims must be addressed with evidence, not implication.”
Answer
Theologically a failure to respond to a mistake and repent is wrong. The failure to retract or reduce the assertion of 95% reliability is wrong when the anomaly shows there is a a reason to reduce the reliability. The consequences of the non repentance was that all the pro-Shroud scientists are insulted.
In the case of the Shroudists the evidence has been presented that is contra to the C14 dating and this has been going on for decades.
Statement 4
“As for the so-called “anomaly” — the slight variation in dating from one end of the strip to the other — that’s not an absurdity. It’s exactly the sort of noise you expect in any small sample with slight contamination or statistical uncertainty. It does not imply, as some now bizarrely argue, that the entire Shroud spans thousands of years in age from one end to the other. That’s not a scientific claim — it’s a reductio ad absurdum, and not even an honest one. It’s a straw man constructed to discredit rather than understand.”
Answer
“ it’s a reductio ad absurdum, and not even an honest one. It’s a straw man constructed to discredit rather than understand” No its not. It is describing a suspicion of the consequence of not addressing the anomaly. It reveals how some people make absurd and illogical assertions such as the Shroud being a painting of Leonardo Da Vince.
Thank you for agreeing that the absurdity is there and as such the anomaly should have been addressed and/or the reliability reduced or retracted. The anomaly gives reasonable suspicion that the dating is wrong. The anomaly was certainly a sign that the C14 was inaccurate. One of the suspicions for the cause of the anomaly is the later finding by Ray Rogers that there were two different dated threads in the sample that likely affected the C14 test.
Statement 5
“Now let’s go further: even if you throw out the 1988 C14 test entirely, even if you redate the cloth and confirm a first-century origin — which, by the way, no serious re-testing has done — you’re still left with reasonable doubt that this is Jesus’ burial shroud. First-century linen? That could be many things. A bier cloth used to cover a body in procession? Entirely plausible. A well-crafted object from Syria, Mesopotamia, or India, meant for artistic or devotional use? Also plausible. Those possibilities are more probable, and will be vastly more acceptable to the public at large than theories of vertically collimated radiation or “resurrection energy.” They reflect the reality of a resurrection believed in by faith, rather than one forced into the mold of speculative, doubtable evidence.”
Answer
Yes. The C14 dating is incorrect and Yes, there is a need for Science to prove beyond reasonable doubt or even “on the balance of probabilities” that the Shroud belongs to Jesus. Rather than say “are more probable” it is more accurate to say a ”reasonable suspicion” because they are less than “on the balance of probabilities” i.e.51% …. Unless the evidences establishes other.
I have had the intention to show that the C14 dating is wrong and have not focused at this stage about the reasonableness of the 1st Century date.
“by the way, no serious re-testing has done” No. The serious science of X-ray testing dates the Shroud back 2000 years. Corrobarative forensic science is serious and as such the soils and pollens etc.
Statement 6
“In that light, reasonable doubt still prevails — not about the date, perhaps, but about the identification. Reasonable doubt doesn’t disappear simply because a date shifts. That’s not how evidence works, in science or in law.”
Answer
When the date shifts is important as then evidence reliant on that date disappears. For example, on the basis that the Shroud is 2000 years old the middle age document that claims that the Shroud was a forgery no longer has any credibility. Also, because the C14 dating is wrong then there is less corroborative evidence for the middle age claim of it being or forgery.
Ray Rogers finding of the mix of first century and middle age threads is in itself scientific evidence that corroborates the 2000 year date.
Statement 7
“So let’s stop pretending that a legal standard, borrowed from a completely different domain, somehow invalidates a complex scientific study because of what it didn’t say. The debate about the Shroud is worth having — but it must be done honestly, in the appropriate domain, and with the humility to admit what we can and cannot know.”
Answer
“So lets stop pretending” amounts to an insult and is not science.
The realm of the Science of law is “honesty” that’s why it needs to be applied to Scientific studies and to theology. The principle of beyond reasonable doubt is well described in law and how to identify the areas of what we do not know and its limits.
All science needs to be applied including the Science of law and this is displayed in the most regular daily fashion in courts where the validity and accuracy of complex science is argued. The limits of complex science needs to be exposed so that an honest outcome is achieved. The C14 daters unreasonably maintained 95% reliability and have failed to repent.
There was no obligation on the C14 daters to provide a reliability level but they did. There is a theological obligation to not provide information that could mislead people and if the information is discovered to be misleading then the obligation is to change. Proverbs 6:16-19. Leviticus 5: 1-6 Koran Chapter 4 V 135
Statement 8
“And let’s leave the Missy Woods case, and legal arguments about weight of evidence, where they belong: in court — not in theological or scientific inquiry.”
Answer
The C14 daters banned the STURP team from contributing throughout. Had the STURP team worked in conjunction with the C14 daters then there would have been seven samples and not merely one. The STURP team would have redirected the C14 sample location away from the patch as it had been identified by Barria Schwortz long before the single sample was taken.
“courtroom drama” is an insult to the Science of law. You will note that in my blogs I refrain from using these kinds of words. They are not science. Lots of people unknowingly use these kinds of word and phrases. Some kind advice on these kinds of words …Theological science indicates that these kinds of words should not be included. Ephesians 4:31 Another method in scientific discourse is to refrain from or limit the use of adjectives and adverbs
The Court is the arena of science and the law is used to test the reliability of the complex science to get an honest answer. The use of the Missy Woods case is standard scientific practice as it is a comparator a standard to compare methodologies of science. It takes away the self opinions and refers to the standard methodologies of reasonableness.
Juries are used so as to get the “reasonable person’s” conclusion and not the opinion of a singular person. It assists in the removal of self opinions on reasonableness.
The C14 daters did not look at further samples and failed. They would have had a better chance by using seven samples and would have had a reference comparator in the same way I am using a legal case to show that the methodology is not my person opinion of assessing the evidence.
By the way, Secundo Pio was a lawyer.
Sorry, Will, you’ve lost me here. Stream-of-consciousness discussion has never been my strong point. I can see one or two clear ideas, but most of this doesn’t seem to connect.
You’re correct that Forensic Science is quite a rigorous discipline, and that its cross-examination in court of law is a good way of establishing some kind of accepted ‘truth.’ As I said previously, I have no doubt that the medieval age of the Shroud would easily survive such cross-examination, should it ever occur.
However, you seem to go on to confuse Law and Theology, to make random statements of apparent fact which are no such thing, and conclude by saying “I am using a legal case to show that the methodology is not my person opinion of assessing the evidence” which I don’t understand at all.
Oh, and by way, Secundo Pio wasn’t called Secundo. Or Pia…
Dear Hugh
No I am not confusing theology and the law,
I have degrees in both and understand the connection between both:
BTh from Australian College of Theology
LLM (Leg Prac) Australian National University
LLB University of New England
other
It is clear that having done my BTh first then my law degrees that Law is a specialist area in Theology. Jesus is well known as one of the originators of the law, The Old Testament is full of the laws and making of laws.
Cheers
Will
I mean he wasn’t called Pio. He was called Pia.
Thank you for picking up my typo. I do more of them than most due to my hand disabilities. …arthritis and Dupuytrens Contracture.
The Carbon dating must be dismissed as evidence for the dating of the Shroud. The responsibility for that goes wholeheartedly to the daters themselves. They had the opportunity to do it right but failed to do so.
Credit
In law the term “to the credit” is used. It is a measure of the credibility of the person providing the argument.
The following goes to the credit of the C14 daters and this is well documented by Joe Marino:
i. Failure to engage in proper consultation with the STURP team of experts.
ii. Failure to comply with the Protocols:
a. Blind test was ignored
b. Limit on public discussion ignored
c. Communications between daters was broken
iii. Failure to automatically disclose the results
iv. Failure to be open to discussions e.g. accusing dissenters of bias.
v. Failure to provide limitations to accuracy e.g. not clearly stating that the smoked cloth would make the C14 dating unreliable and at the same time complying with the no cigarette smoking near the Shroud.
vi. Other
These failures and issues were mentioned regularly and even Carbon at the Paris Symposium raised the issues. The C14 daters failed to release the data despite these real scientific issues. The daters were found out when the data was finally released.
Comment
There was no obligation to state that the results met any reliability standard but they stated despite all the contra evidence that it met the highest standard of 95% reliability.
Had the C14 daters complied with the protocols of science then there would have been real valuable data available for the scientific community. Most specifically if they had taken seven samples as STURP repeatedly told them there would likely have been an explanation for the “anomaly” and for Ray Rogers “two bits of thread”
Its time to reject the C14 dating completely.
If we do then we must realize that the cloth is probably a bier cloth and not Jesus’ burial shroud.
No. I have not yet discussed the preponderance of evidence.
Just because the C14 date is discarded it does not mean that there is no evidence for a date.
If it was Jesus’ bier cloth, that would still be a very important relic.
Yes, it would.
Weight of Evidence
In the Missy Wood case, the investigators will also assess whether the DNA evidence had sufficient weight to affect the verdict. For example, where there is video footage of the whole crime the DNA reliability would be irrelevant.
Done properly the DNA evidence solves many cold cases and also rebuts other evidence. This is a phenomenon that occurs with fingerprint evidence.
When the C14 date came out in 1988 it made all the other evidence irrelevant and it became a very tough ask to get rid of the impact of the C14 until the data was released in 2017 and then the C14 date came crashing down.
So now we have Wide Angle X-Ray evidence providing a date in the 1st Century. To rebut the WAX technology the same assessment that applied to the C14 data needs to take place. If it hasn’t been or can’t be rebutted then the same respect that the C14 daters had (and then lost) should now be applied to the WAX date. It clearly rebuts the middle ages theory.
The WAX date could be “beyond reasonable doubt” or “on the balance of probabilities” or simply provide a reasonable suspicion.
My apologies for digressing I had intended on continuing with the “weight of evidence” through to the “preponderance of evidence”
In addition to Missy Wood there is now another DNA scientist in trouble and subsequently suspended for contamination …
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/forensic-science-queensland-director-linzi-wilson-wilde-suspended-after-contamination-issues-identified/ar-AA1H55PB?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=4ec8773a90044a10a5e96b24d1d13f3a&ei=41
These cases reveal how high a standard is expected to get a “beyond reasonable doubt” or “95%” reliability result.
This reinforces the conclusion that the dating of the C14 is extremely unreliable to such an extent that the date needs to be discarded. It remains to be seen if the C14 test has any relevance for the Shroud.
Preponderance of Evidence
With over 120 different sciences there is a very large pile of evidence of all kinds. There is a method to sort out this evidence that is used in juridical science. This is described in the following link
https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/find-legal-answers/books-online/defend-yourself-facing-charge-court/evidence
NOTE: Throughout the blogs I have referred to criminal law etc as a reference point to understand how evidence for “beyond reasonable doubt” is assessed and analysed.
Just as the unfair use of evidence in a criminal trial has very serious consequences it is also the case in the science of the Shroud e.g. enormous damage was done to credibility of the Shroud by the Leonarda Da Vince assertion based on paint when the STURP team made it clear there was no paint used. Yet there are still people who have concluded Leonardo painted the image.
Admissibility of Evidence
Before a criminal trial begins there is a pretrial process that operates on the following basis:
A. “The rules of evidence regulate what witnesses can say and what physical evidence may be introduced, in line with two broad principles:
i. to provide the court with the best evidence; and
ii. to establish rules of fairness.”
B. ‘Best’ evidence means, for example, that first-hand evidence is preferred to second-hand evidence. Rules of fairness, for example, are intended to prevent evidence that is prejudicial, and is of little value in proving any relevant fact, from being admitted. In a criminal trial, these rules are stricter than in other court proceedings.”
C. “The magistrate or judge has a discretion to exclude, or to allow, doubtful evidence.”
These rules when applied to the preponderance of Shroud evidence will see a lot of the evidence excluded from reasonable discussion and assessment. For instance, the Leonardo painting would be excluded on the basis that it is doubtful as there is no paint on the Shroud.
Applying these rules means also that the C14 date needs to be excluded as it is so low in reliability.
Note the principle of “unfairness”. Its unfair for a jury to be over burdened with doubtful evidence that could easily mislead.
Throughout this website evidence has been provided relating to the FOI data, the anomaly, the Rogers split thread, and much more that makes the C14 date highly unreliable. A such the reasonable person needs to exclude the C14 date from the discussion.
(Just a reminder the legal test is … what would an observer, of firm mind and who fair-minded and is fully conversant of all the facts, conclude.)
For that reason, the constant appeal to the C14 date in Shroud discussions is unfair and unreasonable in the court of science.
Hi Will,
That’s nice and clear, so thank you. To me, however, some of what you say seems confused.
1) The Leonardo da Vinci hypothesis is put forward as an explanation for the evidence, not as evidence itself. Those who present it are well aware both of the conflicting findings regarding pigment, and the fact that da Vinci was not born until 1452. It’s not a hypothesis I accept myself, but it should be examined on the argument presented by its proponents, not dismissed without that argument being considered.
2) Your arbitrary dismissal of the C-14 date is no doubt satisfying to you, but it would be wrong to guess that it would not be acceptable as evidence in a court of law. The proper thing to do would be to present both the C-14 evidence and any alleged evidence discrediting it, and let the court decide whether it should be accepted or not.
3) I have read this website since its inception, and have not read anything that unequivocally demonstrates that the C-14 date should be rejected before being considered by the court. Quite the reverse: all such alleged evidence has been carefully examined and found wanting. That’s not to say that there is no point in discussing it, but to exclude the C-14 date from discussion because you don’t think it stands up is to attempt to pre-judge an issue that is far from undisputed.
4) Your characterisation of what constitutes someone of “firm mind and who fair-minded and is fully conversant of all the facts” is, I think, different from mine. By wanting to reject the C-14 evidence even before the case comes to trial, you demonstrate to me a most unfair mind. That’s OK; after all, you think that of me, but for the ‘fair trial’ you claim to advocate, I think both of us should be able to present our evidence.
Another important component to add to what Will mentioned: the ethical requirement of not knowingly perpetrating a fraud on the Court. I think that many Shroud skeptics would get “disbarred” over this as they often seem to act in bad-faith with desperate arguments whose raison d’être seems to be an effort to supplant God by eliminating the most powerful and awe-inducing evidence for His existence.
Lord, save us from the lawyers.
Teddi, I appreciate the passion and seriousness — especially your emphasis on ethical responsibility. But I’d gently suggest that implying skeptics are acting in bad faith or trying to “supplant God” crosses into ad hominem territory. I believe it’s possible to be both intellectually honest and skeptical about the Shroud without being morally or spiritually deficient. We should be able to debate the evidence without presuming ill intent.
BTW: When you refer to “the most powerful and awe-inducing evidence for His existence,” are you speaking of the Shroud? If so, that assumes precisely what’s in question. What if the Shroud is medieval? Or what if it’s a bier cloth rather than a burial shroud? In legal terms, that feels a bit like begging the question or assuming facts not in evidence. Aren’t we putting the cart before the horse by treating the Shroud as proof of divine reality before we’ve settled what it actually is?
We would all be better off if we all admitted we really do not know very much about the shroud. What passes for evidence is mostly nonsense.
Hi, Ashlee,
Your notion that what passes for evidence is “nonsense” is indicative of your not having studied the Shroud evidence at a very deep level (if much at all.) It’s rather reckless of you to try and equate your knowledge about the Shroud with that of others, because I can assure you that there are many people who know far more details about the Shroud than you, apparently, do.
There have been many very serious people who have devoted many years of their lives to studying this cloth and learning about the details that evidence its authenticity. Many of these details that we read about were acquired by the sweat of the brow of very serious, highly educated scientists, physicians, engineers, and many others who devoted years of their lives performing various tests/examinations of the evidence. Particularly high praise goes to Dr. John Heller and Dr. Alan Adler, but also to the other STURP team members, as well. You’re trying to just “hand-wave” away all of this evidence is not very serious of you, and it is rather reckless or, perhaps, quite intentional.
That being said, there are still many things that remain unexplained about the Shroud–but that does not mean that there are not many things which have come to be explained.
Best regards,
Teddi
Teddi, I think you’re right to push back on what I feel was a somewhat careless dismissal of Shroud research. There are indeed many serious and devoted individuals—scientists, engineers, and physicians—who have spent years examining the Shroud, often at personal and professional cost. Their work, especially that of Heller, Adler, and others from the STURP team, deserves respect. Some of it may still hold up under scrutiny. Some may yet be vindicated by further research. But some claims that have grown up around the Shroud do raise legitimate questions. Over the years, we’ve seen claims of coins over the eyes, X-ray-like images of teeth, floral images supposedly unique to the Holy Land. These kinds of claims, while perhaps offered in good faith, often appear to belong more to the “I think I see…” genre than to solid scientific consensus.That doesn’t mean they’re all nonsense. But many of them reside in the we simply don’t know enough category. Others may deserve stronger challenge, particularly when they’re presented as firm conclusions rather than tentative hypotheses. The forensic-style arguments fall into that camp, as I see it—interesting, but far from settled, far from fully accepted. Your claim of a life giving energy is something that to me seems like nonsense without any specifics. What can any of us make of it? Is it evidence of something?So I agree with you that we need to speak with care and precision. Dismissing work without engaging the details is unhelpful. But so is accepting speculative claims without demanding evidence.
Dear Dan
Thank you for your response. The juridical process is designed for discernment and to give boundaries for discernment.
It is interesting to see the responses to the well established boundaries of admissible evidence. But, I’m guessing that this is the first time that the boundaries and principles of juridical science have been applied to the Shroud evidence.
Statement 1
“That’s nice and clear, so thank you. To me, however, some of what you say seems confused.”
Reply:
It’s a difficult job to walk someone through the legal process. It not only takes university education it takes experience and case law background.
Statement 2
“The Leonardo da Vinci hypothesis is put forward as an explanation for the evidence, not as evidence itself. Those who present it are well aware both of the conflicting findings regarding pigment, and the fact that da Vinci was not born until 1452. It’s not a hypothesis I accept myself, but it should be examined on the argument presented by its proponents, not dismissed without that argument being considered.”
Reply
No. The legal process excludes these kinds of doubtful suggestions. Before the Leonardo Da Vinci was proposed it was proven beyond reasonable doubt by STURP that there was no paint. The discussion on the Leonardo hypothesis has passed and gone. In the pre-Trial of a court, evidence is examined and is rejected by the judge as part of the real discussion. Therefore no paint means no Leonardo in the court of science.
Statement 3
“Your arbitrary dismissal of the C-14 date is no doubt satisfying to you, but it would be wrong to guess that it would not be acceptable as evidence in a court of law. The proper thing to do would be to present both the C-14 evidence and any alleged evidence discrediting it, and let the court decide whether it should be accepted or not.”
Reply
“arbitrary” No. Its based on the legal process
“satisfying to you” an insult
The judge dismisses the doubtful evidence before it gets to trial and this is what should have been done by now with the overwhelming proof that the C14 is unreliable. It had been presented for decades. Again, note how Missy Wood is in trouble for failing to keep to the protocols as such the C14 date is in trouble because the multiple breaches of protocol. It should have been rejected decades ago when it became clear that the protocols were breached.
Statement 4
“I have read this website since its inception, and have not read anything that unequivocally demonstrates that the C-14 date should be rejected before being considered by the court. Quite the reverse: all such alleged evidence has been carefully examined and found wanting. That’s not to say that there is no point in discussing it, but to exclude the C-14 date from discussion because you don’t think it stands up is to attempt to pre-judge an issue that is far from undisputed.”
Reply
“Quite the reverse: all such alleged evidence has been carefully examined and found wanting.” No. For example, nobody has provided evidence that the protocols were not breached. Joe Marino has provided a great log book recording the breaches.
On that basis alone, the judge would make it inadmissible during the pre-trial hearings.
Statement 5
“Your characterisation of what constitutes someone of “firm mind and who fair-minded and is fully conversant of all the facts” is, I think, different from mine. By wanting to reject the C-14 evidence even before the case comes to trial, you demonstrate to me a most unfair mind. That’s OK; after all, you think that of me, but for the ‘fair trial’ you claim to advocate, I think both of us should be able to present our evidence.”
Reply
There are lots of cases and precedents that are relied upon in a court to determine the reasonableness of a person and I have provided a tiny sample at the very commencement of my blogs.
It is unfair to accept C14 due to the large amount of broken protocols. Standard court practice dismisses evidence that was not obtained properly i.e. breaking protocols. That’s not my opinion but is demonstrated by Missy Wood and Linzi Wilson-Wild.
A reasonable person would not accept tests that have been completed with many broken protocols.
“By wanting to reject the C-14 evidence even before the case comes to trial, you demonstrate to me a most unfair mind” No. The judge decides prior to the court what is unfair and in the process excludes doubtful evidence before the trial. Its clear that such doubtful evidence that has so many protocols broken should not be presented in a court.
“That’s OK; after all, you think that of me,” No. That’s an insult. My view is that it takes some time for people to grasp the process used in law courts.
“ you claim to advocate” No. That’s derogatory. Its clear by the links that I have provided that I am following the legal processes to determine what evidence needs to be in the discussion.
, “but for the ‘fair trial’ …. I think both of us should be able to present our evidence” The fair trial excludes doubtful evidence that is argued by both the prosecutor and defence attorneys prior to the commencement of the trial. There is a time to say that some stuff is so doubtful that it needs to be removed from the discussion.
In free speech both can say anything. But, in serious science there are serious processes as shown in juridical science. They are not my processes they are from juridical science. These processes are in place to provide the best assurance that innocent people are not convicted and that convictions are made on the best evidence.
C14 daters did not take their science seriously and that is evidenced in the many broken protocols.
Juridical science is a section of theology and as such there are boundaries that originate from theology and the Bible.
Hi Will,
I don’t think we’re going to get much further with this. I wouldn’t have bothered to reply but I felt you should realise it was I rather than Dan whose comment you were responding to. I was trying to be tolerant rather than abusive, so I’m sorry if you took it personally, but I’m afraid almost everything you have said above is factually incorrect, and not an accurate reflection of any legal process. As a method of discrediting the medieval date of the Shroud it is wholly counter-productive, and serves better to reinforce it than undermine it.
But never mind, my best wishes to you anyway,
Hugh
Dear Hugh and Dan
First of my all, apologies for mis-addressing the response to Dan instead of Hugh.
“I was trying to be tolerant rather than abusive, so I’m sorry if you took it personally, “
When I refer to something as an “insult” its not a matter of taking it personally. I do so to identify comments that are not scientific or are attacks on the other person or characterize the other person or impose a mindset on the other person. My responses are directed at the sciences and the discussion of the sciences. You will find I rarely use adjectives and adverbs and figurative phrases. I direct comments not at the maker but at the evidence. Feel free to read my responses and find out that I do not use verbal accusations like “straw man” or other.
Due to the new, and i believe first time, use of proper legal science it is difficult to grasp how to sort out evidence for those who are new to the process. Unusually, there have been many lawyers engaged in Shroud studies yet I am unaware of any who have tried to apply and lay out the legal process where so much evidence is available. This blog I believe is the first to have ever used this method.
“but I’m afraid almost everything you have said above is factually incorrect, and not an accurate reflection of any legal process.” Once again this is an insult as the link has been provided to show that I am using the legal process.
“As a method of discrediting the medieval date of the Shroud it is wholly counter-productive, and serves better to reinforce it than undermine it.”
No. The use of unreliable evidence such as the C14 date is unfair;: that it is doubtful evidence due to the breaking of protocols is well established as a reason to make evidence inadmissible in court. The C14 daters were breaking the protocols that were there to ensure an accurate and reliable result.
Comment
What would be admitted into court is the documentation relating to Bishop Pierre d’Arcis
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi08part5.pdf
That documentation would be compared with the other science that has complied with proper protocols.
Using the legal process is indeed new to Shroud research. Most people who studied the Shroud come from either a scientific or theological background, so it’s understandable they aren’t familiar with it.
One may actually wonder whether it is appropriate to apply the legal process to studying the Shroud. Naturally, scientists assume (maybe without even thinking about that) that the scientific method is the appropriate process, and they are going to be upset when lawyers want to teach them how they should do their job.
But we are seeking “the truth” about the Shroud, and truth is bigger than science. So we shouldn’t dismiss contributions from other fields, as long as they can add a useful perspective. And if we want to give the Shroud a “fair hearing”, well, isn’t that exactly what the legal process is about?
However, I suspect that the distinction between “trial” and “pre-trial” is specific to the *English and American* legal process where all criminal cases are decided by a jury, so you need to decide beforehand which evidence the jurors should or shouldn’t be presented with. In other European countries the case is normally decided by the judge and as far as I know there isn’t formally a “pre-trial” (in Italy there is a “preliminary hearing” where it is decided (by another judge) whether there is enough evidence to begin a trial at all, but I don’t think it’s the same thing, and I’m pretty sure that you can present new evidence after that). And if we are going to use legal arguments, well, I suppose the jurisdiction on the Shroud belongs to Turin…
Dear Gerardo
Thank you very much.
Some clarification … in USA and UK not all trials require a jury. .. some are called bench trials.
Yes re the preliminary hearing as its doing the same job as the pre-Trial by sorting out the evidence.
Jurisdiction for legal matters can be in multiple countries. Decades ago in class we discussed the case where a Pacific Islander was injured in her home country. She was flown to Canberra in the Australian Capital Territory but as she flew over Sydney New South Wales she screamed in agony. The Court held that she could sue for her injuries in the state of New South Wales.
The connection with the matter and the location is important. In the case of the C14 test and the British Museum the connection with the UK is strong and it therefore the jurisdiction is a good one in the UK. Alternatives are Italy, USA and others.
You expressed the purpose very accurately when you stated :”… so you need to decide beforehand which evidence the jurors should or shouldn’t be presented with.” On that basis, it is unfair to present unreliable evidence continually as it deceives.
Thank You
Will
While I have long applied and advocated for the use of the various evidentiary standards that are used in the legal process when assessing Shroud matters, I applaud Will Red’s far more heavy exploration and application of the legal process to Shroud matters–especially the C-14 issue. But, really, it applies to everything.
You see, Science is but one tool to arrive at Truth. It should never be divorced from critical analysis that goes beyond a mere tool. For example, one has to address the real issue of how C-14 testing has been known to yield incorrect results for quite a few reasons such as contamination from biological or chemical sources as well as possible contamination of the sample from older or modern external carbon sources. Additionally, there is the fundamental ASSUMPTION that the ration of carbon-14 to carbon-12 in the atmosphere has remained constant over time, yet it is known that factors such as cosmic ray intensity, changes in magnetic fields and things like nuclear testing by humans can have a real impact on the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere. There are other factors, also, that experts on this issue (which I am certainly not) can address. But, it’s just not as simple and clean-cut as one thinks. And, especially, when one gets into the dating of textiles such as the Shroud, the reliability levels decrease–as is admitted by Beta Analytic on their own website–where they insist that the radiocarbon dating of textiles be performed as part of a multi-disciplinary process. This is an ADMISSION to known–and more important–limitations as to the reliability of radiocarbon dating textiles as opposed to other organic material.
Anyhow, the testing that ideas go through with the legal process goes beyond Science and should be used when considering matters that will monumentally effect how we spend our eternal future.
Best regards,
Teddi
Teddi:
For example, one has to address the real issue of how C-14 testing has been known to yield incorrect results for quite a few reasons such as contamination from biological or chemical sources as well as possible contamination of the sample from older or modern external carbon sources.
This is insignificant with regards to the hypothesis that the Shroud real date is 1 st century. You need at least 2/3 of modern carbon to skew the results to the 14th century. And density estimates show that the density of the C-14 sample area is comparable to the other parts of the Shroud (~ 20 mg/cm2).
Additionally, there is the fundamental ASSUMPTION that the ration of carbon-14 to carbon-12 in the atmosphere has remained constant over time, yet it is known that factors such as cosmic ray intensity, changes in magnetic fields and things like nuclear testing by humans can have a real impact on the level of carbon-14 in the atmosphere.
All of these have already been taken into account in the calibration curve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_calibration
There are other factors, also, that experts on this issue (which I am certainly not) can address. But, it’s just not as simple and clean-cut as one thinks.
Yes. And thus one should study the relevant scientific issues to comprehend them. Not just say that this evidence is “irrelevant” because it would not be admitted in court procedures in one country (while it would be in another).
The legal system procedures cannot change the laws of physics which are universal. And criticism of the 1988 C-14 results must be performed on physical and scientific grounds, not legal procedures. I did it, in 2020 I wrote a long article “How the 1988 C-14 dating of the Shroud of Turin was refuted” based on scientific grounds: https://www.apologetyka.info/ateizm/jak-obalono-datowanie-c-14-caunu-turynskiego-z-1988-r,1291.htm
I do consider the 1988 C-14 resutls as invalid, but not because any court procedures, or Casabianca’s work (significant but not the most important) -but due to the Rogers examination, based on physical and chemical comparison of the samples. Scientific arguments, which I do understand, contrary to many.
If you wish, I can send you original doc file and you can translate it into English using Chat GPT or any other AI translator.
In order to talk credibly to other people about the scientific aspects of the Shroud you should study science (on your own, I don’t require formal credentials). You cannot bypass this by legal rhetorics. Dan is absolutely right on this matter.
And the Shroud discussion is not some kind of American Hollywood popular court-room drama. A pulp-fiction for the plebeians. And American court regulations are not worldwide universal (for your info, Yankees).
Here is Chat GPT information about differences in legal procedures in the US and Poland:
Dear OK
Before I give a detailed response to your ChatGP I will continue with the legal process.
The Court’s purpose is to decide the date of the shroud.
Middle Ages Admissible Evidence
Bishop Pierre d’Arcis Documentation
Non Middle Ages Evidence
i. Wide Angle X-Ray
ii. Ray Rogers twin threads
iii. Head Cloth blood stain alignment with Shroud
iv. Image not formed by any known Mid Ages methods
v. Pollen extinct in the 5th Century
vi. Jerusalem dust
vii. Rucker’s radiation tests
The reference to court process on evidence
https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/find-legal-answers/books-online/defend-yourself-facing-charge-court/evidence
Best Evidence
`“ ‘Best’ evidence means, for example, that first-hand evidence is preferred to second-hand evidence.”
Whilst the Bishop’s evidence is admissible it is not first-hand evidence and as such carries less weight. If a confession and/or eye witness evidence of the forgery taking place then that would have been stronger and carry more weight.
For decades there have been claims that forensic evidence supports the Bishop but since the C14 is so unreliable then there is no corroboration. The point is, the weight of the forensic science is important.
Bishop Evidence v Forensic Evidence
“Direct evidence of a crime is not always required. People may be convicted on circumstantial evidence, if that evidence does not allow for any other reasonable explanation.”
On that basis, the documentary evidence of the Bishop needs to be rejected as the forensic science contradicts the the second-hand evidence of the Bishop
The forensic science that carries weight has been listed in the previous post. Most of it points to a much earlier date than the middle ages.
The Jerusalem dust corroborates the pollen evidence.
The absence of the middle ages technology to create the image also corroborates evidence against forgery.
Verdict
i. The Middle Ages date is wrong and
ii. The date is earlier than the middle Ages