Tweeted Picture of the Day: Black Madonna and the Shroud



#Sindone2015. Il Santuario di Oropa (BI) custodisce la Madonna nera con il Bambino e il sacro Telo. #AmorePiùGrande

English from Italian by Bing

#Sindone2015. The Oropa sanctuary (BI) holds the Black Madonna with the child and the Holy towel. #AmorePiùGrande

180 thoughts on “Tweeted Picture of the Day: Black Madonna and the Shroud”

  1. Even as the rather washed-out looking monochrome representation that we see here, the TS life-size front-and-back image is so unique as to warrant the description ‘iconic’. Think of if you like as history’s very first “Test Your Own IQ”: (“Q.1: What must have occurred for this double image to look the way it does? 1 mark.).

    Given it’s uniqueness, given its instant recognizability, then there would surely have been images similar to the one we see above, etched into the public consciousness, had the TS had been around somewhere or other for 1300 years before the radiocarbon dating. Even if kept under wraps and out of sight by an amazingly efficient order of custodians, swearing each new generation of key-holders to silence and absolute secrecy, surely the ‘idea’ would have leaked out and been sketched, painted, carved, cast by someone, somewhere, sooner or later, probably sooner?

    But where, pre-1355 that is? And if not, why not?

    1. Finally a question that doesn’t involve science or archeoparaed…whatever, so I can get in on the fun.

      The Shroud may have been lost for centuries, forgotten in some graveyard of relics or pillaged booty. Even today we see examples of rare books or artwork that are found in attics or someone’s archives. Heck, the TV series Storage Wars is predicated on the phenomenon of people finding precious treasure in storage lockers.

      Perhaps we have a 13th century Indiana Jones to thank for finding the Shroud.

      Also there may have been other art pieces that did exist that were inspired by the Shroud, but they have been lost as well. Perhaps they too remain out there waiting to be found in some dusty cellar.

      Insert Raiders of the Lost Ark theme here…

    2. David, a more credible pre-1355 history of the Shroud was presented by Jack Markwardt at the St Louis Conference, 12 Oct, 2014, “Modern Scholarship And The History Of The Turin Shroud”. Text of Markwardt’s ‘Modern Scholarship’ paper is published by Barrie Schwortz at . It comprises some 276 pages, double-spaced, with 251 footnotes, and 20 illustrations taken from his 136 slide-presentation. It includes a detailed review of various other hypotheses, including the Wilson Mandylion theory, which Markwardt no longer holds.

      Two of his earlier papers, place the Shroud in the city of Antioch, taken there by the apostles consequential to the Jewish persecution after the martyrdom of Stephen. During the depredations and confiscation of church treasures by Julian the Apostate, it was hidden away until the 6th century when a series of earthquakes hit Antioch, and its location was then revealed. Soon after Antioch was attacked by the Persian King Chosroes who destroyed the city. Meantime the warrior patriarch bishop of Antioch, Ephraemius took the Shroud into Cappadocia, where it became known as the Image of Camuliana. Soon afterwards it was taken to the capital Constantinople, where it became known as the Image of God Incarnate, quite distinct from the Mandylion,

      This very brief summary does little justice to Markwardt’s excellent case, and one needs to read the paper to see his strong arguments for his theory. I consider the paper to be a major landmark in the quest for an early history. However there is a lot of scholarly investment in the Mandylion hypothesis, and I expect it will be some time before the significance of Markardt’s paper becomes fully appreciated.

      The truth is often more fascinating and intriguing than any fictional account, however imaginative such speculations might be.

      1. “It comprises some 276 pages, double-spaced, with 251 footnotes, and 20 illustrations taken from his 136 slide-presentation.”

        Yes, but what one seeks is just one teeny weeny hint in the historical record that there was a life-size imprint on linen of a TS-like double-image prior to 1355 .Nope, not “excuses” (“it was folded up to look like a face-only portrait, no double image”) but real evidence for the existence of what we see now.

        How could an iconic image have remained secret for 13 centuries, only to have suddenly re-appeared from the mists of time with no ‘history’, on relatively pristine, newish-looking linen (don’t mention the radiocarbon dating)?

        276 pages, or 2760 pages, or 27600 pages do not compensate for a 1300 year old vacuum in the historical record.

        1. It’s a fair question Colin. The authentist rightly points to the Shroud popping into art history without precedent so it’s fair to turn the table on that observation.

          There will be theories. Some may have more merit than others. But until the authentist produces some undeniable evidence of the Shroud’s existence pre-1300, it all remains theory. Likewise, until the skeptic produces proof of Shroud prototypes in the art or historic record, it too remains theory that it is man-made.

          One thing in favour of that “newish” linen is that if – as the theory goes — the Shroud was lost/hidden away then it was in a perfect situation for preservation. Some mummies look newish compared to others that may not have been as undisturbed.

          The lack of history, for both sides of the debate, is a stumbling block — not a road block.

        2. “Likewise, until the skeptic produces proof of Shroud prototypes in the art or historic record, it too remains theory that it is man-made.”

          You cannot be serious, David G!!

        3. Thanks Daveb for the link

          Click to access stlmarkwardtpaper.pdf

          I have read it carefully.

          This is a very complex problem and I am not all all qualified to give any kind of judgment.

          I can only say that Markwardt’s paper must be read carefully by the historians.

          Colin, you wrote: “Yes, but what one seeks is just one teeny weeny hint in the historical record that there was a life-size imprint on linen of a TS-like double-image prior to 1355”.

          According to Jack Markwardt, we have several historical records of a life-size image on linen many centuries prior to 1355, namely the “Image of God Incarnate”.
          In addition, Jack provides an interesting (historically-based) explanation regarding the apparent disappearance (!) of this relic in Constantinople.

          Historical records must be criticized with the historical method, taking into account the context etc.

          But in any case, nobody can state that there is absolutely nothing about a life-size image of Christ on linen before 1355 in Lirey.

        4. It’s evidence for the iconic double image, frontal v dorsal, nearly but not quite joined at the heads, having been sighted pre-1355 that one seeks for the existence of the TS pre-Lirey. Single images don’t count.

          If in the course of following hundreds of postings on this site and elsewhere, and thousands of comments, one has never once encountered evidence for the existence of such a double image or the slightest hint thereof and, moreover, gets no response when making a specific request for that image, then I think it’s fair to assume that it doesn’t exist.

      2. The responses, ‘Nope, not “excuses” (“it was folded up to look like a face-only portrait, no double image”)’, ‘Fair comment, Colin …’ demonstrates that Markwardt’s evidence has not been appraised by the correspondents, not even scanned briefly, let alone read at all. The former response can only refer to the Mandylion theory, which I noted Markwardt rejects. And I’m not going to spoon-feed any more than what I have already said.

        1. Please read my first comment on this thread daveb. I asked why there was no evidence of the life-size double image existing in the public consciousness prior to 1355. I confess that I have not as yet got round to reading Jack Markwardt, and look forward to doing so. But unless there’s new and substantive evidence in those 276 pages for one or more sightings of the iconic TS front-and-back full length body image pre-1355, ideally negative, suggestive of a bodily imprint, then my failure to read Markwardt is simply not relevant to the question posed.

        2. Guilty as charged, Daveb. I shall look into Markwardt. Save the spoon for your morning pablum.

          I was dead serious, Colin. You have no precedent in art history for the Shroud so you can’t ipso factso call it man-made. You have only a theory – no proof. Note, I’m not saying the theory is without merit.

          You did say not to mention the carbon dating. :)

  2. Long hair spread out over the shoulders, loincloth, feet well apart and pointing outwards. Did every painter who hadn’t seen the Shroud come up with these ideas independently, or were they all copying from an original? Perhaps not the actual Shroud, but surely something closely associated with it…

  3. This painting and others are present in the booklet published in 2000:
    “The Sindoni found. Restoration of the representations in the Biella “.
    There are already many years that I have this book, that is from October 15, 2000 …
    The image of Roreto (previously mostrataci) is on p. 39.
    And is attributed to a Piedmont painter (maybe it was part of Bartolomeo Caravoglia), the second half of the seventeenth century.

    This instead was shown recently in the blog is located in Biella-Vernato (about 15 km from my house).
    This is a fresco depicting the Shroud better known Biella, made popular by the good conservation (= … see also under the heading: “House of the Shroud”)
    That fresco on the wall is attributed to a painter Biella (age: third quarter of the seventeenth century).
    Restoration: 1983, Viviana Horse on behalf of the City of Biella (financing = City of Biella).
    The Saints are known St. Joseph and St. Philip Blacks (what with unanimous consent, because they are identified with certainty), while the other two figures have been variously identified as St. Stephen’s and St. Anthony of Padua (of Oldenico, 1953) or Gaetano Thiene and Nicholas of Tolentino (and Fist of Oldenico, 1975).
    — — —
    The fact of defining Oropa as “Santuario di Oropa Templar of the thirteenth century”
    it seems a bit too much, but someone has this particular idea …


    B.T.W.: Did you know that the interior of the statue of
    the black Madonna of Oropa (XII sec.) is hollow?
    But … what they wanted to hide in the cavity?
    — — —

    I have found the following words:
    >The original image of the Black Virgin of Monte Oropa was made in the third century. She was brought by St. Eusebius of Vercelli from the Middle East to his diocese of Vercelli.
    >The image was made of cedar of Lebanon and painted black. A mid-fourth century intensified the persecution of Mary (mother of Jesus), and St. Eusebius had to hide her in the mountains of Sacro Monte di Oropa, about 9 miles from Biella, Italy.

    See also:
    >According to tradition Luke the Evangelist carved this statue and St. Eusebius brought it to Italy.


    The previous words accredit the “legend of Eusebius”,
    but we know that (instead) the statue is made of wood most likely from
    the Valle d’Aosta (= cirmolo valdostano)…

    >IL CIRMOLO è in realtà il famoso pino cembro, albero sempreverde ad aghifoglie del genere Pinus, della famiglia delle Pinaceae.
    >Alto non più di 25 metri, la sua chioma è da piramidale a espansa.Specie montana diffusa principalmente sul crinale alpino, se ne trovano degli esemplari anche nei Balcani ed in Europa centrale.
    >Cresce a partire dai 1500 metri di quota fino al limite boschivo,circa 2300 metri

    Rough translation:
    >THE CIRMOLO is actually the famous stone pine, evergreen conifers to the genus Pinus, in the family Pinaceae.
    >Not higher than 25 meters, its foliage is from pyramidal expanded. Mountain species spread mainly on the alpine ridge, they are found in specimens also in the Balkans and Central Europe.
    >It grows from the 1500 meter mark to the tree line, about 2300 meters


    Therefore (probably) the statue was made by a sculptor of the Aosta Valley …

    See also under the address:

    >All’interno del Sacello è custodita la statua della Madonna Nera, realizzata in legno di cirmolo dallo scalpello di uno scultore valdostano nel XIII secolo…

    = > Inside the chapel houses the statue of the Black Madonna, made of pine wood from the chisel of a sculptor Val d’Aosta in the thirteenth century…


    In any case I think this is a different story compared to the Shroud …

    1. I wrote:
      >The image of Roreto (previously mostrataci) is on p. 39.

      As usual I was a bit ‘hasty writing my message.
      So …
      I wanted to write:
      > The image of Roreto (previously shown to us) …
      — — —

      Black Madonna and the Shroud and Four Saints:

      At p. 57 of the text (= “Le Sindoni ritrovate. Restauro delle raffigurazioni nel Biellese”October 2000) that I have previously indicated is quoted Giuliano Genta
      (he dwelled at Piazzo, the ancient neighborhood of Biella), probably the father
      of the painter Giuseppe Antonio.
      But it was done also the name of Francesco Chiamorra, of what is known a painting executed in 1672 for the parish of Vandorno (Source: Don Delmo Lebole: History of the church Biella. The parish of Biella., Vol III, Biella, 1986) …

      That image (which is present in the home of the Shroud of Piazzo) has been inserted in a wide shot architectural trompe-l’oeil, which simulates a frame decorated with golden relief applications …
      Here few words about “the house of the Shroud” of Biella-Piazzo =
      Typical construction of the fifteenth century, what characterizes it is a painting of the Holy Shroud on the entrance door.

      In the past arose strange rumors about “the home of the Shroud” of Piazzo …

      For exampe, try to see on Facebook:

      = Walking with the ghost. Haunted house at Piazzo…
      The home of the Shroud of costa del Vernato, municipal property, is infested with appearances …

      See also:
      The public testimony of tenants that (because of fear) have abandoned the premises


      1. Here are some more words about the plant from which it seems to have been the statue of Our Lady of Oropa :

        >Pinus cembra, also known as Swiss pine, Swiss stone pine or Arolla pine, is a species of pine tree that grows in the Alps … etc. …


        >Beds and furniture made of Pinus cembra are very popular within the Alpine region of Europe as scientific studies of Joanneum Research in 2003 have shown that exposure to a Swiss Stone Pine can improve sleep … …
        — —
        Unfortunately I have no recent scientific references because scientific analyses on the statue were considered unnecessary by His Eminence the Bishop of Biella
        (I had publicly asked his opinion on that argument about 10 or 15 years ago …).
        In fact we already knew the results of analyzes made over 100 years ago …
        Yet someone insists with an eusebian legend…
        Well … it does not seem that it is appropriate to deepen the analysis on the wood of Vallle Aosta (epoch = the twelfth century) …
        But you, what do you think?

  4. Reminder for Colin: on October 21, 2014 at 6:19 am, I wrote:
    “Just couple the Stuggart Psalter stark naked Christ back view and the Pray Hungarian MS stark naked front view (depicted in conjunction with a double-length burial sheet) and you shall get a fairly accurate medieval record of the TS Image as extrinsic proof its radiocarbon dating was skewed” and intrinsic proof the TS image is pre-1355 as the latter was depicted as early as the first quater of the 9th c. CE (SP) and mid- to late 12thc. CE (HP Ms).

    1. Likewise, one can couple medieval paintings of horses with earlier cave paintings of rhinoceri with well-developed horns to prove that unicorns really did exist.

        1. NO WONDER antibiotics may by their very success prove to be a deciding factor in the decline of the present civilization…

    1. “Vaguely indicative” only in the non-initiated sight-and-brain coordination system of a High School Science of the Earth Teacher (and an “antibiochemist”), shall I presume.

  5. Colin wrote: “what one seeks is JUST ONE (upper cses mine) teeny weeny hint in the historical record that there was a life-size imprint on linen of a TS-like double-image prior to 1355.

    JUST combine e.g. the 814-824 CE Stuggart Psalter stark naked Christ back view and the 1163-1195 CE Pray Hungarian MS stark naked front view (depicted in conjunction with a double-length burial sheet) AND the literary synthesis of several corroborating 944-1207 CE testimonies and eyewitness descriptions an you’ll finally get aware the Turin Shroud is the crux literaria et iconographica of the Constantinople Sindon. Yet an initiated/correctly operating sight-and-brain coordination system is highly required.

    1. Reminder: The Christianised Black Madonna represents all souls seeking Redemption via their union with the Divine i.e. in their (Holy Grail-like) quest of G-od via Yeshua’s body and blood as guilt offering.

      1. Addendum: The shrines of Black Madonnas have all have a connection with either the Benedictines, the Cistercians, or the Knights Templars.

        1. Reminder Two: The Turin Shroud aka Constantinople Sindon is related to “Esoteric initiation” that denotes “all the teachings and practices that were meant to lead to divine knowledge, mystical union, or the direct vision of G-d (via Yeshua’ and/or his mother).”

          “Medieval consciousness did not separate mystical, scientific, philosophical, and artistic knowledge. It all came from G-d and was to lead back to him.”

    2. But let’s modify Colin’s observation and we see he has a point. Why are all the pre-1300 art references to the Shroud cryptically encoded so that only one 21st century man (Max) is able to decipher their link the Shroud? Why is there not one single overt representation such as we see post 1300?

      The 1300 year gap is a serious challenge to the authentist side. As DaveB has pointed out, there are theories (credibly presented) that provide some accounting for that gap.

      This is what makes the Shroud so enigmatic, on almost every level it sits on the fence of proof — sometimes leaning to the grass of the authentic, sometimes to that of the inauthentic. It appears unequivocally in the historical record at the 1300 mark — but there are signs pointing back to the 1st century.

      It is a grand puzzle authored by…..

        1. David you wrote: “Why are all the pre-1300 art references to the Shroud cryptically encoded so that only one 21st century man (Max) is able to decipher their link the Shroud?”

          The fact is, in the HP Ms epitaphios-like depiction of Yeshua’s double-length burial sheet (folio 28 , upper section) is hidden IN FULL VIEW. The famous relic is linked to esoteric initiation.

          In the mid 20th c. CE, de Brito linked the TS to the sorrowful MYSTERIES of the Rosary. If the word mysteries ring a bell to you…

        2. Actually for “the initiated eye-and-ear”, It is cryptically alluded to the Shroud of Christ from The Book of Revelation to Jules Vernes’ The Myterious Island via Saint Christopher legend and that of the Arthurian Holy Grail just to take a few famously unknown examples).

  6. Reminder for David: through Byzantine and Medieval Christians’ eyes, G-d’s Incarnation, Death and resurrection etc are awaiting disclosure or interpretation as mystical mysteries.

    1. The true fact is the Shroud related Christian esoteric initiation dates back to 1st-early 3rd c CE CRYPTOchristianism.

    2. MAX, PLEASE stop posting one or two line post every few minutes. Sit down think it all out and put it in one post! PLASEEEEE

  7. “I was dead serious, Colin. You have no precedent in art history for the Shroud so you can’t ipso factso call it man-made. You have only a theory – no proof. ”

    There’s a simple reason why the TS has not precedent in art history, DavidG.

    It was not intended to appeal to artistic sensibilities. How could it, being a faint negative monochrome imprint?

    It should be seen essentially as a medieval puzzle – more mathematical than artistic. The viewer on first acquaintance had first to recognize the image as a bodily imprint, not a painting. He was then expected to make the connection between the strategically separated frontal and dorsal images and the use of an up-and-over sheet of linen, not canvas, to realize that it corresponded with the biblical account of Joseph of Arimathea’s intervention,. The viewer was then invited to invest further mental effort in matching up the bloodstains to the biblical account of the scourging, crowning with thorns and crucifixion, but with no flagrum, no thorns, no nails or lance in the ‘picture’. Two puzzles for the price of one – bodily imprint AND blood. Is it any wonder it was an instant hit? But it had to be unique!

    Finally, when the medieval viewer has put all those together he was then amenable to the suggestion that what he was viewing was NOT merely a contrived counterfeit, but the real linen that enveloped Jesus. However, for that conclusion to be drawn it was imperative that there were no prototypes still in in circulation. No doubt they had existed – if only from the one originating workshop – but they had to be promptly destroyed.

    Let’s stop thinking about the TS as art. It leads one down a totally false trail. It only became art once Secondo Pia had shown the stunning effect of reversing the tonal values.The first cohorts of medieval viewers would not, and could not have foreseen that transformation, or have done that in their own heads.

    1. It has no precedent in art or otherwise. You’ve accounted for that ‘gap’ with a reasonable theory. Polite applause for that. Certainly in the skeptics favour is having to account for a gap that is miniscule in comparison to the 1300 years of the authentist’s. But their are reasonable theories there too, though the ‘esoteric initiation’ one has given my uninitiated eyes a headache.

      1. David, re e.g. Jules Verne’ s The Mysterious Island the protagonists named “L’ILE LINCOLN”, here’s a first clue for you:

        -The TS four burn holes can via graphic analogy read like L. I. L. E./L’ILE) while the word LINCOLN > Latin lindun colonia, “farm by the pool” or lindum colonia, “worshipping of the fountain’s reservoir/pool” (> Latin verb colo = worship). The latter acception can, at one and the same time:
        a) refer, via iconic simplification/analogy, (as the TS zigzag pattern is similar to the pattern used to symbolise water on the maps) to the zigzag patterned rectangular linen cloth
        b) cryptically read Lin(us) Col(o)n(ia), “worshipping of the linen (cloth)”.

        1. Second clue: After flying in stormy weather for several days, the group crash-lands on a cliff-bound, volcanic, unknown (and fictitious) island, described as being located at 34°57′S 150°30′W, about 2,500 kilometres (1,600 mi) east of New Zealand. In both location and description, THE ROCK that is left of the mysterious island/L’ILE LINCOLN at the end of the novel may correspond to THE PHANTOM ISLAND/ L’ILE FANTÔME of Ernest Legouve Reef. Now the TS as LINEN CLOTH contains the very word LINCOLN in anagram and bears the phantomatic image of a man.

        1. His name is Nemo.

          Etymologically speaking, it means “NO-BODY” and can also translate “Nameless”, “without a name”.

          It is the Latin version of what Ulysses shouted back at the Cyclops Polyphemus as he was leaving the Cyclops’ Island (Sicily) and they asked for his name.
          It can also refer to Paul/Shaul’s “Unknown G-d” (see his Areopagus speech in Acts 17):
          29 “(…) we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. (…) 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”


          a) the pantom island of the ROCK/Reef located in the South Pacific (south of French Tuamotu islands and east of New Zealand) was reported in 1902 by the UNAMED CAPITAIN of the French ship “Ernest‑Legouvé”.
          b) Verne’s myserious island in the South Pacific is apparently uninhabited.
          c) there is apparently NO-BODY in the Turin Shroud or LINeN CLOth/LINCOLN. Besides the ventral and dorsal phantomatic images, left on its inner side, are discernible only beyond three paces. Within three paces it just vanishes into “the WeAVES”.

        2. d) NEMO is the perfect anagram for OMEN, “sign”, in the famous phrase NOMEN OMEN. The old French word synne –derived from the Latin word for sign, signum– is not only the synonym of old French sydoine,”shroud” but also specifically refers to the « burial sheet » of Christ.

        3. e) “Capitain Nemo was an INDIAN”. The very Greek word Sindon (Hebrew Sadin), LINEN CLOTH/SHROUD comes from the word Sindhu, “Indian”, to designate a “piece of cloth from the Sindh/India”.

          f) In Chapter 58, we have a description of the way Nemo looks:

          “At these words the reclining figure rose, and the electric light fell upon his countenance; a magnificent head, the forehead high, the glance commanding, beard white, hair abundant and falling over the shoulders.
          His hand rested upon the cushion of the divan from which he had just risen. He appeared perfectly calm. ”

          Then a short intriguing dialogue:

          “Nevertheless, I know you!” replied Cyrus Harding.

          Captain Nemo fixed his penetrating gaze upon the engineer, as though he were about to annihilate him.
          Then, falling back amid the pillows of the divan,–

          “After all, what matters now?” he murmured; “I am dying!”

        4. Typo:

          Then a short intriguing dialogue:

          “Sir, I have no name.”
          “Nevertheless, I know you!” replied Cyrus Harding.
          Captain Nemo fixed his penetrating gaze upon the engineer, as though he were about to annihilate him.
          Then, falling back amid the pillows of the divan,–
          “After all, what matters now?” he murmured; “I am dying!”

        5. g) Nemo dies of a mysterious illness just before the volcanic eruption and is buried in his vessel that is then sunk.
          If “Nemo” is Latin for “no one”/”NO BODY”, it is also (as νέμω) Greek for “I give what is due” (see Acts 17: 31, “For (the Unknown G-od) has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed.” Nemo can be seen as an Ante-Messianic figure/trope in terms of programmed massive destruction.
          h) The very name of his advanced submarine, LE NAUTILUS is the perfectanagram of LINUS TAU, “The LINEN (CLOTH) of the CROSS”.
          i) The zigzag patterned TS man’s bloodied body image “works” as an oversized Rorschach test. In primary vision, the TS image looks like an underwater submarine (viewed frombelow) equipped with a crystal-clear lens vast circular opening to explore the depths (the vast circular opening = the faintly lighter discoloration vast circular area all around the Turin Shroud face while the TS zigzag pattern is similar to the pattern used to symbolise water on the maps).

        6. As a Rosicrucian, it is most likely Jules Vernes was initiated into the secrets of the Turin Shroud.

        7. j) Still in primary/Rorschach test vision, one can think he see in the zigzag patterned TS bloodied body image, streams of fresh glowing lava glowing red as ambers flowing from the underwater circular mouth of a volcano.

  8. David, in the first 1300 years or about of the CE, the Shroud of Christ was covertly venerated then, from mid 14th c .CE onward it was overtly venerated. Is this so difficult for you to get that it gives you a headache?

  9. Still re « the Black Madonnaand the totally unfolded TS man’s bloodied body image just underneath: during the 14th to 17th centuries, when the plague, the Black Death, was wiping out entire populations all over Europe, people took refuge in Black Madonnas. It was reminiscent of the story in the Bible (Numbers 21:6-9) where G-d instructs Moses to heal those who were mortally wounded by snake bites by making them look at a bronze sculpture of a snake. The latter was and still is a Judean symbol of Divine Salvation. Now in Hebrew Yeshu’a (= « Jesus ») definitely means « Divine Salvation ». As such, the Yeshua’s (« Jesus’ ») bloodied body image on his shroud is a nomen omen i.e his name is (also) a sign. Now from the Latin word for sign, signum, the old French word synne is derived (and of which sydoine is the synonym), refers to the « burial sheet » of Christ. As a sign, it also refers to John 3 :14 : « And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus The Son of Man is going to be lifted up » (Aramaic Bible in Plain English).

  10. From wiki (my bolding):

    ‘Rolling Stone’ magazine described (it) as “Lennon’s lavish daydream” and music critic Richie Unterberger said “‘Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds’ was one of the best songs on The Beatles’ famous Sgt. Pepper album, and one of the classic songs of psychedelia as a whole.

    There are few other songs that so successfully evoke a dream world, in both the sonic textures and words.”

    In a review for the BBC, Chris Jones described the song as “nursery rhyme surrealism” that contributed to Sgt. Pepper’s “revolutionary … sonic carpet that enveloped the ears and sent the listener spinning into other realms.”

    Er, ring any bells?

    1. Colin, you ave Impeccable credentials as an “ANTIbiochemist” and that’s about it. In YOUR dream world you cannot even discriminate “a chain from a rope” or correctly read Jules Verne’s French yet still think you’re smarter in the field of the TS iconography and/or crytographic literature!

    1. What is the best reply to an ignramus who thinks he is smarter than you? Just ignore him.

  11. Reminder for Colin et al: “For Einstein, insight did not come from logic or mathematics. It came, as it does for artists, from intuition and inspiration. As he told one friend, “When I examine myself and my methods of thought, I come close to the conclusion that the gift of imagination has meant more to me than any talent for absorbing absolute knowledge.” Elaborating, he added, “All great achievements of science must start from intuitive knowledge. I believe in intuition and inspiration…. At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason.” Thus, his famous statement that, for creative work in science, “Imagination is more important than knowledge”.

  12. Does Max realise that by posting lots of small and sometime incomprehensible postings , he clogs up the comments list above, so that no one knows what else has been posted under other headings. Why can’t he sort out everything he wants to say on a separate sheet, correct all his typos and then copy it over as a single posting.

    1. I agree. It also makes it difficult to moderate the blog. Max this is not Twitter. We’ve had this discussion before.

  13. This new approach to literature and iconography, I called it perceptive archaeocryptology.

  14. Dan: Is there a site administrator’s option whereby you can increase the number of “Recent Comments” that are retrievable beyond the present maximum of 10?

  15. This is marvellous! I have to say I really enjoy these etymological labyrinths that Max concocts: the Mysterious Island one is great, and I dare say the Harry Potter Heptalogy is but waiting in the wings. Needless to say, however, there is no evidence whatever that any of them were intended by, or even known to, their respective authors, an observation that applies particularly to any “true fact” or “proof” regarding a pre-medieval existence for the Shroud. Hey guess what, Holy Shroud is an anagram of Hourly Dosh. So that’s the reason for all the expositions we’ve been having recently…

  16. Hugh,

    I won’t bet a “dollar cash” on your “Hourly Dosh”.

    Re cryptography and Vernian literature, you do seem to totally ignore how Jules Verne used his writings to encrypt important Masonic and Rosicrucian secrets and sacred symbolism.

    “Prolific author and pioneer of the science fiction novel, Jules Verne also possessed a hidden side that was encrypted into all his works–his active participation in the occult milieu of late-nineteenth-century France.”

    “The passe-partout to Verne’s work (the skeleton key that is also the name of Phileas Fogg’s servant in Around the World in Eighty Days) lies in the initiatory language he employed to inscribe a second or even third layer of meaning beneath the main narrative, which is revealed in his skilled use of word play, homonyms, anagrams, and numerical combinations. The surface story itself is often a guide that tells the reader outright what he or she should be looking for. Far from innocuous stories for children, Verne’s work reveals itself to be rich with teachings on symbolism, esoteric traditions, sacred geography, and the secret history of humanity.”

    Do your homework before passing irrelevant comments.

    1. In 1907 a sculpture was placed over Jules Verne’s grave. It was designed by Albert-Dominique ROZE (1861-1952). Roze as Rosicrucian?

      Links at:


      The sculpture depicts the half enSHROUDed FIGURE of Jules Verne emerging from the tomb, stretching his hand out to the sky, and is entitled “Vers l’Immortalite et l’Eternelle jeunesse”, Towards Immortaility and Eternal Youth, which does echo L’ILE LINCOLN as cryptically referring to his Lindum Colonia/Lincoln Island/L.’ I. L. E. LINCOLN as “the worshipping place of the fountain’s reservoir (of EternalYouth), I deciphered in the very name given to the phantom island.

  17. Reminder for Hugh: The Rosy Cross fraternity aspired “to learn all that which G-d/Jesus hath suffered Man to know (now you can understand the reason why Verne cryptically alluded to the Turin Shroud in The Mysterious Island), and thereby to be enabled in all times of need to give their counsel unto those that seek it.”

    On top of Verne’s tomb, it is not coincidental at all we can see a carved crown of roses in conjunction with a cross within = R+C (symbol of the fraternity), which echoes e.g. the R+C as initials of the Reform Club.

    1. Shall I repeat what I wrote on February 6, 2015 at 7:30 am and you totally overlooked:
      Most likely, Jules Verne as a Rosicrucian, was initiated into the secrets of the Turin Shroud.

  18. Last but not least: most likely the meaning of the name of the order is derived from the Latin word for dew, which is ros (though its emblem can be a cross within a rose). Thus it can read as ros + crucis, “the dew of the cross” = Yeshua’s bloodied body. ONCE AGAIN, this speaks volumes against Hugh’s non-qualified opinion Jules Verne’ Mysterious Island is not cryptically shroud related.

  19. Typo: Yeshua’s bloodied body image left on the inner side of his Shroud as dew of the Cross.

  20. There’s no need to repeat everything; if I disagreed with it the first time there’s a fair chance I would disagree with it the second time as well. What you need to do is substantiate things. With evidence. The fact the Verne was a Rosicrucian does not mean that he was “initiated into the secrets of the Turin Shroud.” For what it’s worth I don’t believe there are any secrets to the Shroud. Do my homework? Why? You make a claim; you substantiate it, or it’s no more than wild speculation. In the unlikely event that the book whose Amazon blurb you quote even mentions the Shroud, or gives some evidence that the submarine Nautilus was intended as an anagram of Linus Tau, perhaps you’d like to give us the page number, and then I’ll do some homework to demonstrate the spuriousness of the claim, or to be convinced that you are in fact correct.

  21. Hugh, Jules Verne was a Rosicrucian and had a love for cryptography. His novels are coded, this is well known of Vernian specialists. These are FACTS. The burden of charge is on you not on me (as you just have failed to oppose the slightest hard or even counter arguments to mine).

    BTW could you just tell me how do you understand the following sentence from the R:C: Manifesto, please: (The Rosy Cross fraternity aspired) “to learn all that which G-d hath suffered Man to know”, if the sentence means something to you? The Etymology of Rosecroix is Roscrucis, “the Dew of the Cross”. Could you tell me to what “the Dew of the Cross” can refer us or can’t you?
    Reminder: Hemeneutically speaking, Dew is typical of the Holy Spirit that brings Yeshu’a to the sinner. Manna descend in the dew. Now Manna comes from the Hebrew sentence “Man Hu? “What is it?”. They used the same sentence to ask of Yeshu’s “Who is this”? if you were to see the TS for the first time and had not been told what it was, you would ask either What is this? or Who is this?.

    In light of the Turin Shroud and intellectually speaking, can you just get the implied meaning of the Dew of the Cross, or just can’t you? Are you really a Christian?

    1. So the movie Finding Nemo is actually a documentary about finding the Shroud in the murky depths of history? Look at the word play in the acronym ‘PIXAR’ — see the connection?

  22. 1) “These are FACTS.” If you have any evidence for any of them, please present it. Otherwise they are nothing but speculations.

    2) “The Etymology of Rosecroix is Roscrucis, ‘The Dew of the Cross’.” If you have any evidence for this, please present it. Otherwise it is nothing but a speculation.

    3) Now Manna comes from the Hebrew sentence “Man Hu? “What is it?” This is one of many possibilities. So what?

    4) “Are you really a Christian?” Yes.

    Nothing you say has either evidence or authority. If it had, I would investigate it further. As it hasn’t, there is no need. Jules Verne knew nothing about the Shroud and did not incorporate it into his works, consciously or unconsciously. If you have an evidence to the contrary, present it. Are you really an archeocryptologist?

  23. See for instance, Mystérieux Inconu by Guy Tarade:

    “Jules Verne fut vraisemblablement coopté dès 1846 par une société savante autant que secrète implantée dans la ville de Nantes, et dont une Loge se situait Passage Pommeray. Les membres qui la composaient étaient pour la plupart des scientifiques. Verne puisa dans leurs écrits pour rédiger ses livres. Rien ne nous interdit de penser que cette vaste bibliothèque était celle de l’Invisible Collège auquel appartenu René Descartes.
    L’Invisible Collège était composé des Très Illuminés Frère de la Rose+Croix.
    L’Invisible Collège était le nom répandu dans le public pour expliquer que les Frères de la Rose+Croix n’étaient pas réunis en un lieu, car ils vivaient dans tous les pays d’Europe.”

    See Jules Verne, initié et initiateur : La clé du secret de Rennes-le-Château et le trésor des rois de France by Michel Henri, éd. Poche

    1. Hugh, Tarade and Lamy are Vernian specialists among many other telling the same thing Jules Verne was an initiated, most likely a Rosicrucian), which most obviouly you are not.

      Check the etymologies by youself, I am not her to spoon feed you!

    2. Could you answer my question or couldn’t you? Reminder: could you just tell me how do you understand the following sentence from the R:C: Manifesto, please: (The Rosy Cross fraternity aspired) “to learn all that which G-d hath suffered Man to know”, if the sentence means something to you?

      So no REAL counter arguments, no hard facts, no the leeast subtancee to oppose to my etymologies, interpretations just blabla?

      1. I presented a series of evidence but most obviously you have not the sight-hearing-and-brain coordination system to grasp it.

  24. “vraisemblablement”? “Rien ne nous interdit de penser”? This isn’t evidence, Max; it’s guesswork.

    1. Can you really read French? The issue is not so much whether Jules Verns was or was not a Rosicrucuian (he was) but which year excatly he was co-opted as such!!!

      1. See also Lamy’s book Part 3:


        7 Jules Verne and the Rosicrucian Order

  25. According to Lamy, Jules Verne was a Rosicrucian see his book about the Secret Message of Jules Verne: Decoding His Masonic, Rosicrucian, and Occult Writings. Do your homework for G-d’s sake!

    1. Hugh, Jules Verne tomb does show the sign he was a brother from the invisible college (the Rosy Cross Fraternity). You have eyes but you just don’t see… as usual.

  26. This is the third tie I’m asking you: Could you answer my question or couldn’t you? Could you JUST tell me how do you understand the following sentence from the R:C: Manifesto, please: (The Rosy Cross fraternity aspired) “to learn all that which G-d hath suffered Man to know”, if the sentence means something to you?

  27. Still no evidence, Max. Lamy’s suppositions are as unsupported as yours, and the design of Jules Verne’s tomb does not look like a Rosicrucian emblem. There is no evidence that it is one. I can’t even see the letters RC you say are engraved on it, although it’s not a very clear photo.

    As for that “to learn all that which G-d hath suffered Man to know” you are so keen on, it seems to be a part of an extraordinarily prolix hermetic peroration beginning “Wisdom (saith Solomon) is to a man an infinite Treasure, for she is the Breath of the Power of God, and a pure Influence that floweth from the Glory of the Almighty.” A noble sentiment, no doubt. If it means that we should all be better off if we were wiser, then I agree. I don’t think trying to “learn all that which G-d hath suffered Man to know” is a particularly Rosicrucian aspiration, and I do think it could be encouraged generally.

  28. Hugh, re the first of the R:C:/Rosicrucian two main aspirations (i.e. to learn all that which G-d (= Yeshu’a/Jesus) hath suffered Man to know”) and etymology of Rose/y Cross, either you’re in Bad faith or you have ears but don’t hear and you have eyes but don’t see the immemorial Shroud of Yeshua’ guilt offering does show “the Dew of the Cross”! Whatever the case, it is just pathetic for an alleged “Christian”. Whether you want to admit or not The Shroud of Christ is Rosicrucian in se and their aspiration to “learn all that G-d (=Yeshu’/Jesus) hath suffered Man to know is related to his most famous relic aka his LINEN CLOTH ( > anagram LINCOLN) showning the capital letter-like shaped four series of burn marks spelling L I L E.

    Besides, The Mysterious Island that is L’ILLE LINCOLN (the latter as embedded anagram in the phrase LINEN CLOTH) is the hide-out of an Indian Prince, which makes Capitain Nemo a/the hidden Indian Prince. Now “The Hidden (Prince)” in Hebrew as a name is… Ha-Nostry, currently transcripted “The Nazarene” and Indian (I’ve already told you) can refer to the Sindon as a piece of cloth from the Sindh (India) or Shindu (> Hebrew Sadin). These are etymological facs and as such pieces of evidence in light of the Latin etymology for Rosicrucian, Ros Crucis, “Dew of the Cross”. The Dew of the Cross par excellence IS the bloodied body imprint, Yeshu’a Ha-Notsry left on his burial LINEN CLOTH (in Verne’s cryptic parlance L’ILLE LINCOLN) whether you want to admit or not. Capitain NEMO as an intriguing name, does designate him in French as “PERSONNE”, “(in English “NO-ONE” (but Three as part of the Holy Trinity?), “NO-BODY”(implying the body in the TS is missing?). Now e.g. according to Latinist Broxton Onians, le mot latin “Persona” est peut-être identique à l’étrusque “Phersu” (selon Pauly-Wissova, ou Poulsen) qui désigne UN DIEU DE LA MORT DONT ON RETROUVE L’EFFIGIE DANS LES TOMBES d’Eturie. On retrouve un portrait de
    “Phersu” dans la “tomba degli auguri” décrite et photographiée dans Poulsen (Etruscan Tomb Paintings, their subject and significance”. Version étrusque d’Hadès, “Phersu” tient les têtes, càd les âmes, de ses victimes.

    (to be continued)

    1. Ever heard of the OMEN NOMEN principle in Jules Verne’s cryptographic system most generally known as Le Langage Oiselé/La Langue des Oiseaux?

      1. OMEN as in NEMO,
        NOMEN as in OMEN “N”= “NUN” SIGN = FISH SIGN

        According to Wiki: “The ichthys or ichthus (/ˈɪkθəs/[1]), from the Greek ikhthýs (ἰχθύς, “fish”), is a symbol consisting of two intersecting arcs, the ends of the right side extending beyond the meeting point so as to resemble the profile of a fish (NUN in Aramaic). It was used by early Christians as a SECRET CHRISTIAN SYMBOL and now known colloquially as the “sign of the fish” or the “Jesus fish.”

  29. This is all guesswork, Max, and the more etymological connections you make the less I feel that Jules Verne made any of them himself. The etymology of Rosicrucian is most unlikely to be Ros Crucis, and the etymology of Persona has nothing to do with the Etruscan Phersu.

    Have you any primary evidence at all that Jules Verne was a Rosicrucian? If so, present it; if not, your speculations are no more than immensely entertaining.

    1. Hugh, you MISLEADINGLY wrote: “The etymology of Persona has nothing to do with the Etruscan Phersu”.

      Oh, really? ARe you a distingued etymologist? Most obviously YOU’RE NOT since you are wron AGAIN. Besides true distinguished Latinists’ opinion on the Latin word Persona, just read Wiki:

      “A persona (plural personae or personas), in the word’s everyday usage, is a social role or a character played by an actor. The word is derived from Latin, where it originally referred to a theatrical mask. The Latin word probably derived from the Etruscan word “phersu”, with the same meaning, and that from the Greek πρόσωπον (prosōpon).”

      Thus NEMO as “PERSONNE” in French points to a MASK and DEATH G-OD via the Etruscan “phersu”. Now the Holy Turin Shroud Face shows us A DEATH MASK, THE DEATH MASK OF A G-OD Christian name “Jesus of Nazareth/the Nazarene” actually “Yeshu’a Ha-Nostry in first c. CE Jerusalem Hebrew.

      MOst obviously, you are not qualified at all to discuss words’ etymology. The FACT is you have no hard facts, no hard counter arguments, NOTHING to oppose my opinion as a professional cryptologist. Just a series of negative assertions and untruths.

      1. In The Mysterious Island, Capitain NEMO is a literay AND cryptographic rosicrucian MASK.

        1. Note: Jerusalem Hebrew Ha-Notsry can also mean “The Secret (Prince)”, “The Cryptic (Prince)” and “The Troglodyte” (no wonder as Yeshu’a is said to be the MassiaH ben Elohim and lived, most of his life, in grottos and caverns.

        2. Additional note: “Ha-Notsry” also refers to his cryptic sayings as, most of the time, he taught is disciples via meshalim i.e. “parables”.

  30. Hugh, re La Langue des Oiseaus as Jules verne’s cryptographic system read Lamy’s book

    Part 5

    14 The Secrets of Captain Nemo

    15 Jules Verne Facing God
    Language of the Birds

    …in other words just to some homework to really understand what the cryptographic issue is all about! I’ve just explored a cryptograpic layer Lamy and many others Verne scholars just missed. Not everything is learned contained in books.

  31. Re Capitain Nemo as “Jesus fish”: the former has an exceptional mastery of underwater navigation and seem to ave spend most of his life underwater…

  32. You’re not really getting my point, are you, Max? Elaborate etymological prestidigitation, however learnedly constructed, is not the same as evidence. Evidence is a letter to Jules Verne saying “Dear Sir, welcome to the Rosicrucians,” or a diary entry “Today I became a Rosicrucian”, or a list of members from 1880. The fact that Nautilus is an anagram of Linus Tau is not evidence, nor the idea that Nemo = Personne = Shroud image. These are castles in the air.

    Now for Persona. Your evidence for its derivation from Phersu is a quotation from Wikipedia? Oh, really. Surely we should expect better than that, especially as the sentence mentioning it is followed by [citation needed]. No cigar there. Let me give you a hand, shall I? You are no doubt familiar with Oswald Szemerényi, the Hungarian linguist, but perhaps not with his article in Hermes, the international, peer-reviewed journal on Greek and Roman antiquity, ‘The Origins of Roman Drama and Greek Tragedy’ (Hermes 103. Bd., H. 3 (1975), pp. 300-332). There, from page 308 to page 312, he discusses the possible derivation from Phersu. He gives quotations from Festus, Plautus and Tacitus to establish the meaning of the Latin word Persona, and he discusses at length two Etruscan tomb-paintings of long-bearded, conical-hatted masked men which are labelled Phersu in the inscription. This, Max, is what scholars do. They present evidence and they derive conclusions from it which others can analyse from themselves, making up their own minds as to whether they agree. If you want to establish any kind of credibility in your own arguments, you have to do something similar.

    Oh, and what does Szemerényi conclude? “To sum up, Lat. persona has nothing to do with Etr. phersu.”

    Do some homework, Max, and give us some evidence. Jules Verne wasn’t a Rosicrucian at all, was he?

  33. Hugh, AS USUAL you MISLEADINGLY wrote: “Now for Persona. Your evidence for its derivation from Phersu is a quotation from Wikipedia?”

    The true fact IS I FIRST referred you to no less than THREE distinguished Latinists and etymologists (among whom Broxton Onians, Pauly-Wissova, and Poulsen). THEN I added up Wiki ESPECALLY FOR YOU given you were in denial and your very low level of knowledge on the Persona issue. How long shall I repeat it? According to several etymologists/Latinists/Etruscanists (Altheims, Baldi, Croon Vernant etc) Persona is derived from the Etruscan word Phersu, a Death G-od whose effigy was found in Etruscan tombs (Er ring any bell?). See e.g. Jean-Pierre VERNant (BTW Jules Vernes was born in Nantes ;-)), “Mortals and Immortal: collected Essays”, pp. 122-123.

    The CROIX (Cross) within LA COURONNE DE ROSE “the crown of roses) carved by DOMINI(que) ROZE on Jules Verne’s tomb is quite telling to the initiated eye Jules Verne was R+C = Rosicrucian. Methinks I am just preaching in the wilderness when it comes to YOU who have ears but do not hear, have eyes but do not see. You definitely have not the initiated/appropriate sight-hearing-and-brain coordination system to understand what I mean. Nope. Stop wasting my time, PLEASE.

    Final note: When Jules Verne coded the onomastic background story of his novel, he was not acquainted with Oswald Szemerényi (1913-1996 CE). Just in case you hadn’t noticed it yet, Jules Verne was born in Nantes in 1828 and died in 1902. Besides the main etymological current is Persona is derived from Phersu (whether you like it or not!). Verne took it as such to implicitly coded Nemo BOTH as Persona, “PERSONNE”, i.e. as MASK and DEATH G-OD i.e. Phersu (= Hadès) to embed a secret reference to THE TURIN SHROUD DEATH MASK OF (the Son of) G-D when he was in HADES.

    Stop distorting my words and putting words in my mouth, FRAUDO MALFOY!

  34. Hugh, you wrote: “Evidence is a letter to Jules Verne saying “Dear Sir, welcome to the Rosicrucians,” or a diary entry “Today I became a Rosicrucian”, or a list of members from 1880.” Are you kidding? The sad fact IS you’re not! READ FIRST on the Rose Cross AND Lamy’ s chapter “Jules Verne and The rosicrucian order” before passing silly comments.

  35. Hugh, you wrote: “the design of Jules Verne’s tomb does not look like a Rosicrucian emblem” and “I can’t even see the letters RC you say are engraved on (JV’s tomb)”.

    – Firstly I NEVER said the letters RC were engraved on Jules Verne’s tomb but in your dream! – Secondly what do you really know about Rose Cross emblems? A Cross within a Crown of Rose IS definitely a rosicrucian emblem! It is carved on top of JV’s tomb! Besides, according to Tarade and Lamy who are French Verne scholars and a few others, Jules Verne was a Rosicrucian.

    First quoting an excerpt from the R+C manifesto ( “Wisdom (saith Solomon) is to a man an infinite Treasure, for she is the Breath of the Power of God, and a pure Influence that floweth from the Glory of the Almighty.”), you most flatly commented: “A noble sentiment, no doubt. If it means that we should all be better off if we were wiser, then I agree”. Most obviously you do not what King Salomon’s Widom is. In reference to the Rose Cross here, it implles SECRECY and the use of specific cryptographic system namely the Language of the Birds i.e. definitely the one Jules Vernes used to code L’ILE MYSTERIEUSE.

    Methinks you are an ignoramus as far as Jules Verne, R+C, King Salomon’s Wisdom and the Language of the Birds is concerned. Don’t YOU ask me to do my homework. Just do yours instead, PLEASE!

  36. Little of your last three posts is true, and what is true is unimportant. If Michel Lamy or Guy Tarade have any evidence of Verne’s Rosicrucianism you have failed to say what it is. They are not Verne specialists, unlike William Butcher, who has not only translated many of Verne’s works but written a definitive biography, or Timothy Unwin, Professor of French Language and Literature at Bristol University, neither of whom mention Rosicrucianism. The dense wreath above Verne’s tomb enclosing a small equal armed cross is unlike any other Rosicrucian emblem, and may have nothing to do with it. I can’t even tell if the wreath is of roses from the photos I have looked at.

    Evidence, Max, evidence…

    1. Hugh, For someone in bad faith as you’re, no evidence to read in conjunction with the Language of the Bird cryptographic system will do. You’re in denial even of the plainest evidence. E.g. the nail in the wrist piece of evidence (among a series of other) that proved beyond the shadow of a daoubt several of de Brito’s mid-2Oth c. CE golden bas-reliefs are Shroud related, you keep up being in denial as if the detail had never existed not to mention the odd crossing of the feet and awkard position of the left leg in front of the right one that are Shroud like… Nope.

      1. On the contrary, Max, I pointed out the wrist nails, and said I thought that they derived from the pathological details revealed to the world by the publicisation of the Shroud. What these details do not prove is that the Shroud itself was any part of de Brito’s design for his sculptures.

        I must say I’m sorry you think I’m in “bad faith” or any of the other abuse you have seen fit to bestow upon me just because I don’t take your every word as holy writ without any necessity for any kind of justification. Actually I’m neither blind nor stupid, but a big fan of your wonderful flights of baroque gallimauphry. However you ought to understand that none of it can be taken seriously unless you connect it to history with some kind of verifiable evidence, which you persistently fail even to attempt, relying instead on jumping up and down yelling insults.

        I won’t give up on you, Max. If you remember I did once squeeze a genuine piece of evidence out of you – and then agreed with your conclusion. Why not try it again? What exactly is ufologist Guy Tarade’s evidence that Jules Verne was a Rosicrucian?

  37. Colin wrote: “one has never once encountered evidence for the existence of such a double image or THE SLIGHTEST HINT THEREOF and, moreover, gets no response when making a specific request for that image, then I think it’s fair to assume that it doesn’t exist.”

    Oh really? What do you make for e.g. of the Hungarian Pray Ms folio 28 upper section Christ DOUBLE-length epitaphios/Shroud-like burial sheet? Besides cannot you oldbod’s sight & brain coordination system combine the back view of the Stuggart Pasalter stark naked Christ with the front view of the Hungarian Pray Ms stark naked Christ in order to view the double image you’re looking for? Mark “the blood belt” is not depicted in the SP because the illustrator did link it with the side wound not the flogging.

    What do you make of The Knight Templars’ veneration of a “linen cloth” or “signum fuste(n)um”, “burial fustian cloth” in conjunction with an old skin embalmed and a ‘Head’ in figuram baffometti in semblance of Bocca della Verità that was reported (by Hugues de Payraud) to have “four legs: two at the front and two at the back”? Actually the Shroud image does show a body image in conjunction with an awe-inspiring bloodied death mask of a bearded head (as if disembodied or severed) with the frontal imprints of two legs and feet (the latter apparently ‘missing’ for a few Shroudies though) AND dorsal imprints of two legs and feet.

  38. As I said earlier today on a more recent posting (“CNN”) it’s a pre-1355 image with this, the unique and iconic TS configuration that one seeks.

    I’ve blacked out all detail, because that is not important in the present context. All that matters is that double image, head-to-head in the one field of view that says unequivocally that someone, somewhere had laid eyes on the distinctive TS image prior to its first recorded display in 1355 or thereabouts. Fragmentary evidence that merely hints at particular features of the TS, but does NOT show the head-to-head configuration does not count, especially if open to other more obvious or mundane interpretations. That is not evidence. It is special pleading.

    1. Just read this comment buried among Max’s blizzard. Why do you assume the Shroud was seen/displayed full length? The front of it was all that would have been of interest to followers, and displaying the naked rear may have been deemed sacrilegious. Others have theories about only the face being shown — it’s a credible theory. I simply don’t see the lack of double-image representation in the historic record as a backbreaker for the authentist argument. A fair challenge to be sure, but not a brick wall. There’s no need for special pleading when the challenge is surmountable to begin with.

      1. Never underestimate the power of certain talismanic images, David G, with their ability to fixate and mesmerise.

        Some folk go to a lot of trouble to resurrect them (to serve their new purposes) and once resurrected, to preserve them.

        It only takes one individual to spot the potential in a particular image, once seen in full (not conveniently folded up to support agenda-driven narratives).

        Obvious example (I’m sure there are others).

        You’ll spot the image I’m sure. I wish one could say the same for others on this site (those who cannot see the wood for the trees).

        I’ll continue to respond to questions put to me personally (common courtesy) but I can say with a fair degree of certainty that I’m now largely finished with this site, having sussed out (I think) the mindset that sustains shroudology. It’s neither good nor bad, merely an interesting facet of the human condition.

        1. I agree with David.

          135 comments (!). Most of them have nothing to do with the subject.

          Moreover, 80-90% of these ‘comments’ made by Max are truly foolish, insulting and out-of-topic (Jules Vernes, Rose Croix..) . Why not the Alien ???

          I regret that some of you have decided to answer to him.
          This is pity!
          Do not answer please!

          Colin wrote:
          ‘I’ll continue to respond to questions put to me personally (common courtesy) but I can say with a fair degree of certainty that I’m now largely finished with this site, having sussed out (I think) the mindset that sustains shroudology”.

          Me too.


      2. The real Mindset that does sustain sindonology is FEAR of the UNKNOWN (this is particularly true with miraculist and fakist shroudies). Thibault are you afraid of cryptology applied to the Turin Shroud? How do you think you will fill the historical gap? For instance can you relate the relic to the Syriac and Byzantine secret liturgies? I can. Can you decipher the Book of Revelation in light of the TS? I can. Can you relate all the forms of the Holy Grail to the TS? I Can. Can you relate the Knights Templar’s veneration of a bearded head to the TS? I can. YOU JUST CANNOT.

        As a MD, what do you REALLY about cryptography based on etymologies, Tserouf/anagrams and the like? NOTHING or next to nothing. Your opinion is not qualified AT ALL re the coding of The Mysterious Island in light of the TS. Your alledged ‘authority’ on the cryptographic issue is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. BTW do you know the BLack Madonna or Black Virgin has to do with Alchemy, Christian Alchemy? Reread The Mysterious Island, it also has to do with Alchemy as The Elixir of Life. The TS has to do with Spiritual Alchemy., which you totally ignore or don’t want to hear about it. Secret societies do have to do with the TS. Methinks you do not want to hear about Knights Templar because in your eyes they were heretics. You don’t want to hear about the Holy Grail just because it is a legend when MOST LIKELY, it has to do with the TS. Methinks you just want to hear what you’d like to hear about the TS.

        1. Thibault, you are a Christian. Be honest. Before I gave in this blog for the first time the true etymology of words e.g. “Nazarean” or “Baphomet” and an alternative etymology to the word “Graal” (Grail), you were totally in error as to their true or complete meaning.

        2. The really sad thing with most shroudies (whether fakists or miraculists) is they are speaking with authority in areas of expertise they are professionally not qualified. If you really want to know about cryptology, cryptanalysis and cryptography and the TS, just ask your Medical Doctor that a known fact.

  39. So what did you meant with your “NOT THE SLIGHTEST HINT THEREOF”? There are more than slight hints for the initiated eye and ear.

  40. All I seek is an image comparable to the one above, dated pre-1355. A simple head-to-head outline or silhouette of a doubled human figure will do.

    Simple it may be, but it’s iconic. It’s the unique and instantly-recognizable TS image, stripped down to its bare essentials.

    1. Re YOUR alleged “notion of the bare essential” of the Christ Shroud image: it is definitely NOT that of the paleaochristians, coptic monks, Syriac and Byzantine religious elite, Carolingian and Roman monks, Arthurian literature poets.

  41. To Hugh, have you noticed in The Mysterious Island a man died and resurrected? His name is Cyrus Smith. It contains the anagram of Yeshu Crist/Yesu Christ. They are many an examples proving Jules Verne did use the Langage of the Bird cryptographic system. Reminder re Rosicrucianism: Solomon’s proverbial wisdom was due to his being granted understanding of the language of the birds.

  42. I am not talking about particular details of the TS that are not unique to the TS. I’m talking about the ‘big picture’, the one with a particular detail that is unique to the TS – namely the head-to-head double image (see above). Where does that configuration appear prior to 1355?

    (It’s standard practice in academic enquiry to strip away at non-essential detail, and to continue doing so until all that remains is the essential detail, essential that is to the particular context under consideration, which in this instance is the unique outline or ‘footprint’ of the TS double image that sets it apart from all other images.)

    Suppose by some stretch of the imagination that successive generations of custodians, some 50 or more, had managed to keep the TS itself safe and out-of-sight, out-of-memory. That’s no reason for thinking that the distinctive shape i.e. ‘footprint’ of that image, a double man – head to-head, would, or could have been kept a secret as well. To do so would have been one tall order, indeed well nigh impossible.

    Time to call it a day.

    1. Reminder for Colin: A UNIQUE picture is identified/recognizable via the sum of its particular and/or accidental details. Most obviously, you’re not a forensic analyst.

  43. Not up to your usual quality, Max. Cyrus Smith (often called, as you yourself did above, Cyrus Harding) does not contain an anagram of Yesu Christ, and he does not die in The Mysterious Island.

    1. Hugh, you’re TOTALLY WRONG AGAIN. Re-read (or rather READ PLEASE, as it does seem you haven’t read it yet!) The Mysterious Island!

      – Cyrus Smith was thought to be dead. Nab, his servant, found him in a grotto and thought he was dead. He ran to tell the other rescapees he had found his master. When they came to the grotto, he was alive!
      – The very name Cyrus Smith is the PERFECT anagram of M. Yesu Christ (M as the initial of Master or Maran,” Lord”, as in מרן אתא: maran ‘athâ’, “The Lord has come”, the two-word Aramaic formula used in the Book of Revelation). The second literary fact too is as a ‘Master’, Cyrus Smith has a servant, Nab.
      – “We are in the shark’s mouth,” remarked Nab, alluding to the form of the gulf. A shark is a BIG FISH, isn’t it? Ring any bell (in conjunction with Jonas and The Resurrection of Christ = R+C ?
      – The protagonists met about the same fate as Robinson Crusoe’s. Now RObinSon CRUoeS > initials R+C. Still ring any bell?

    2. Hugh, you wrote: “Cyrus Smith (often called, as you yourself did above, Cyrus Harding)”;

      You bad faith strikes again! I never in this blog, referred to Cyrus Smith as Cyrus Harding but in your dream. Could you please stop putting words in my mouth and distort facts for a change?

  44. “Cyrus Smith is the PERFECT anagram of M. Yesu Christ.”

    Well done for spotting that Smith has got an M in it, Max. Shame you haven’t noticed that Yesu has got an E in it though.

    Did you know that ‘True Fact’ is a perfect anagram of ‘Wild Guess’.

    1. Reminder for Hugh: In Aramaic Yeshu’ is a four-lettered name and has no “e”. It is spelled Y.Sh.U.’

      1. If you prefer Cyrus Smith is the PERFECT anagram of M(aran) YSU’ CHRIST. Period.

  45. “I never in this blog, referred to Cyrus Smith as Cyrus Harding.”

    See February 6, 2015 at 6:14 am, above, repeated at February 6, 2015 at 6:34 am.

  46. No post of mine on February 6, 2015 at 6:14 am. Just cannot find either the alleged post at 6:34 am you’re referring to. Still in your wildest dream! Are you trying to play on me the rosicrucian game of false references, M. Hugh Farey? You’re REALLY wasting my time. You’re just another FRAUDO MALFOY alright! I NEVER referred to Cyrus Smith as Cyrus Harding, this is a fact. Do you really care about facts M. Hugh Farey or don’t you?

    1. Strange. If I type the exact phrase: February 6, 2015 at 6:14 am into my Find Box, your comment appears instantly. It contains parts (e) and (f) of a list of comments about The Mysterious Isle, including the following:

      Then a short intriguing dialogue:
      “Nevertheless, I know you!” replied Cyrus Harding.

      Perhaps our computers give different time readings, but if you were to type some of that extract into your find box, I’ve no doubt it will appear for you. No Rosicrucian games, no false references, no Fraudo Malfoy, just a plodding scientist who wants a teeny bit of evidence to confirm whether your deliberations are rooted in any kind of reality.

      However, you’re quite right about one thing, Max. I am really wasting your time. It’s a good job we enjoy it so much, isn’t it?

  47. One has only to ask a child which animals have a long neck or a trunk and one gets the right answer straight away. There’s no need to specify the number of eyes, legs etc etc.

    That’s identifying from verbal clues where the sum of the details are irrelevant, it being the defining characteristics that are all that matters. However, the same principle could be demonstrated pictorially, e.g. by showing children silhouettes of giraffes or elephants in different postures, where the eyes are not visible, or the legs obscured through squatting postures etc, in which it is the single defining feature – the neck or truck- that is the give-away.

    One could almost turn that example into a morality tale methinks for deployment on internet sites, whenever folk attempt to obscure issues with a welter of unnecessary and/or irrelevant detail.

    1. To Colin: The only snag here is the DETAILS are relevant and necessary to REALLY identify the TS image as such. Have you ever heard of typological AND ACCIDENTAL details? In forensics, accidental details can/do make a world of difference: they currently build a crucial evidence to counfound the guilty. Methinks there are subtleties you currently missed when it come to the TS image analysis. YOU do have a tunnel vision and many a blind spot as far as image analysis and cryptanalysis is concerned.

      To Hugh: Re Cyrus Smith as the PERFECT anagram of M(aran) Y(e)ShU’ CHRIST or M(aran) Y(e)SHU’ CRIST. This is a cryptographic FACT you just cannot deny, whether you like it or not. In the French original version, Cyrus Smith IS the name Jukes Verne gave to the Engineer NOT “Cyrus Harding” that appears ONLY in a few faulty English translations.

      Because I mechanically copied and pasted a FLAWED Enligsh translation of a passage of L’ILE MYSTERIEUSE, Cyrus Smith, which the TRUE name of the engineer in the French original version, MISLEADINGLING appears mistranslated as “Cyrus Harding”. The WRONG NAME is not my doing. This is the translator’s. In other words is NOT in my list of comments stricto sensu, it is a quote from a FLAWED English translation. Had the blog language been French, such a mistranlation could not have occurred.

      I said it again: CYRUS SMITH (which IS the TRUE name Jules Verne gave to his hero) is the PERFECT ANAGRAM of M(aran) Y(e)ShU’ CHRIST or M(aran) Y(e)SHU’ CRIST, “Our Lord Jesus Christ”. THis is a cryptographic fact. This cryptographic system known as LE LANGAGE DES OISEAUX (the language of the birds) dates back to KING SALOMON. Shall I repeat they are many an example Jules Verne did use the Rosicrucian cryptographic system known as The Language of the Birds. Reminder re Rosicrucianism: Solomon’s proverbial wisdom was due to his being granted understanding of the language of the birds and practice of secrecy. Reminder of the Rosicrucian manifesto incipit:

      “Wisdom (saith Solomon) is to a man an infinite Treasure, for she is the
      Breath of the Power of God, and a pure Influence that floweth from the
      Glory of the Almighty; she is the Brightness of Eternal Light, and an undefiled
      Mirror of the Majesty of God, and an Image of his Goodness; she teacheth
      us Soberness and Prudence, Righteousness and Strength; she
      understands the Subtilty of words, and Solution of dark sentences; she foreknoweth
      Signs and Wonders, and what shall happen in time to come; with
      this Treasure was our first Father Adam fully endued: Hence it doth appear,
      that after God had brought before him all the Creatures of the Field, and
      the Fowls under Heaven, he gave to every one of them their proper names,
      according to their nature.”

      It then proceeds: “Although now through the sorrowful fall into sin this excellent Jewel
      Wisdom hath been lost, and meer Darkness and Ignorance is come into the
      World, yet notwithstanding hath the Lord God sometimes hitherto
      bestowed, and made manifest the same, to some of his Friends: For the wise
      King Solomon doth testifie of himself, that he upon earnest prayer and
      desire did get and obtain such Wisdom of God, that thereby he knew how
      the World was created, thereby he understood the Nature of the Elements,
      also the time, beginning, middle and end, the increase and decrease, the
      change of times through the whole Year, the Revolution of the Year, and
      Ordinance of the Stars; he understood also the properties of tame and wilde
      Beasts, the cause of the raigning of the Winds, and minds and intents of
      men, all sorts and natures of Plants, vertues of Roots, and others, was not
      unknown to him. Now I do not think that there can be found any one
      who would not wish and desire with all his heart to be a Partaker of this
      noble Treasure; but seeing the same Felicity can happen to none, except
      God himself give Wisdom, and send his holy Spirit from above, we have
      therefore set forth in print this little Treatise, to wit, Famam & Confessionem,
      of the Laudable Fraternity of the Rosie Cross, to be read by every
      one, because in them is clearly shewn and discovered, what concerning it
      the World hath to expect (…).”

      The influence of Rosicrucianism can be felt all through JV’s work for the one who has ears to hear, eyes to see and brain to think. It not just for the blind and deaf common readers but first and foremost for the wide and understanding reader or the “uncommon one”. Rosicrucians are promoting a “Universal Reformation of Mankind”, (the “Rosicrucian Enlightenment”). The fact is it can be felt in every and all JV’s novel(s) (just think of the famous the Vernian “Reformed Club” (R+ C)). Besides the true fact IS many an esoteric society have claimed to derive their doctrines, in whole or in part, from the original Rosicrucians. According to Tarade, most likely the Rosicrucian Pierrre Piquelin co-opted Jules Verne.

      Reminder for Hugh: my “deliberations” are rooted in a work of fiction, Rosicrucian literature, Christian refrential texts, a cryptographic system (or phonetic & etymological Qabbalah) dating back to the Time of King Salomon, a Secret Order known as the Rose Cross and an archaeological document know as the Turin Shroud.

      1. …The Turin Shroud, as an archaeological document, still shows “the Dew of the Cross” (or Ros Crucis as MysteriumCrucis); the Mystery of the Cross.

  48. Typo: It not just for the blind and deaf common readers but first and foremost for the WISE and understanding reader not to mention the “uncommon one”.

  49. Re King Solomon’s WISDOM (SOPHIA in Greek): in Atbash Cipher (which is part and parcel of the Language of the Birds): Let’s read Schoenfield:

    “(Atbash Cipher) is a Hebrew code which substitutes the first letter of the alphabet for the last and the second letter for the second last and so on. When the Hebrew letters that spell Baphomet (Knights templar alleged ‘idol’) is applied to this code, it generates the Greek word Sophia which is translated in English as Wisdom. The Greek Goddess Sophia is brought to mind here.”

    Sophia in the New Testament is also brought to mind as some Born Again Christians have pointed out: there is a Goddess in their Bible.

    Here is the Atbash Cipher: The word “sophia” in Hebrew is שופיא. The Atbash form of that is בפעמת or baf’omet = baphomet.

    Now etymologically speaking, the Latin phrase in figura baffometi does refer to a relic in semblance of Bocca della Verità (Heb. Ba-Phéo-Emet, see my etymological analysis in this blog) and archaeocryptolgically speaking to the mysterious awe-inspiring Shroud bearded death mask/head (which is reported to have “four legs: two at the front and two at the back”, looked like an old embalmed skin and be seen in conjunction with a linen cloth) Knights Templar venerated in secrecy.

    1. In light of the OMEN NOMEN (the name is a sign) principle, the very name NEMO, “NO-BODY” as “PERSONNE” in French, via the Latin word Persona and Etruscan name Phershu, CAN/DOES refer to the death mask of a G-od (alike Okeanos; see La Bocca della Verità) namely the Shroud bearded head/awe-inspiring death mask, when in its monstrance it seen seen through a vast oculus/circular opening.

  50. In light the Bocca della Verità, NEMO as PERSONA (in Hadès) that is as as death mask of a g-d AND/OR the mask of the g-d of death can refer via the Shroud death mask as Christ in Hell and/or a ‘Moffé’ (old French for “the Devil”) and the g-d Okeanos. Now in Hebrew, Solomon means “Pacific”. Just guess in which OCEAN L’ILE LINCOLN (LINEN CLOTH) is located: the PACIFIC OCEAN.

  51. Posted on another thread on February 9, 2015 at 3:16 pm Reply
    Re L’ILE “LINCOLN” as a anagrammatic reference to the Turin Shroud as LINeN CLOth in light of its four series of shaped-like letters spelling L’ILE, “The Island”, cryptologically speaking, it is quite relevant to note that:
    a) the day president Abraham Lincoln was murdered was a Good Friday that is the very day Jesus Chist” died and was buried in shrouds.
    b) the expression “the Bosom of Abraham” is found only in two verses of St. Luke’s Gospel (16:22-23). Iconographicaly speaking it features souls as human figures ‘lying’ in a large cloth. See for instance The Bosom of Abraham, Romanesque capital from the former Priory of Alspach, Alsace. (Unterlinden Museum, Colmar) 12th c. CE at:

      1. This is clearly a representation of you, Max, as the holder of the linen, aka your blanket of comments. The three figures in the middle are Colin, Hugh and me. You are about to choke us into unconsciousness with your etymological garrote.

  52. Sorry I posted themon the wrong thread again:

    Thus what are the odds Abraham Lincoln can be associated both with YeShU’s, a burial LINeN CLOth and Resurrection?
    What are the odds too for Cyrus Smith (the very name of a man that dies and literally resurrected in chapter 8 of The Mysterious Island aka LINCOLN ISLAND) codes as perfect anagram, M(aran) Y(e)ShU CHRIST, ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ”?
    BTW in Bible numerology number 8 is related to/codes the resurrection of the DEAD…

    In Chapter 8, you can read: (…) “Nab ended his account by saying what had been his grief at finding the inanimate body, in which he vainly sought for the least sign of life. Now that he had found him Cyrus Smith) dead he longed for him to be alive. All his efforts were useless! Nothing remained to be done but to render the last duties to the one whom he had loved so much!”

    “(…) Rubbing had re-established the circulation of the blood. Cyrus Smith (Cyrus Harding is a mistranlation from the French original) moved his arm again, then his head, and a few incomprehensible words escaped him.
    Neb, who was bending over him, spoke, but the engineer did not appear to hear, and his eyes remained closed. Life was only exhibited in him by movement, his senses had not as yet been restored. (…)”

    “(…) Meanwhile, the care which was lavished on the engineer brought him back to consciousness sooner than they could have expected. (…)

    “(…) (Cyrus Smith) opened his eyes.
    Nab and the reporter were leaning over him.
    “My master! my master!” cried Nab.”

    Note the whole scene takes place in a GROTTO. Reminder: In 1st c. CE Jerusalem Hebrew, Ha-Notsry can mean “The Troglodyte” and also refer to a Christian (“The Nazarene”, “The Nazarean” = “The Christian”).

    1. Al the rescapees in The Mysterious Island lived in a GROTTO. In Hebrew they literaly are Notsrym, “Troglodytes”, “Nazareans” = disciples of “Jesus of Nazareth”

  53. Reminder: my original approach does seize BOTH the cryptographic conscious AND subconscious of the cryptographer in light of the hidden message to decipher;

  54. Thibault, Colin et all, you’d better see the film The Imitation Game based on the real life story of legendary cryptanalyst Alan Turing, the film portrays the nail-biting race against time by Turing and his brilliant team of code-breakers at Britain’s top-secret Government Code and Cypher School at Bletchley Park, during the darkest days of World War II.

  55. Re the alternate etymology I gave of Rose Croix (“The Etymology of Rosecroix is Roscrucis, ‘The Dew of the Cross’.”) on February 6, 2015 at 5:45 pm, defensively sceptic, Hugh asked me: “If you have any evidence for this, please present it. Otherwise it is nothing but a speculation.”

    – In 1468 CE illustrations of the three relics (see THE SACRED LINEN-CLOTHS OF CHRIST’S PASSION IN EGYPT by Otto F. A. Meinardus, Winter 2003 • Coptic Church Review – Volume 24, Number 4, p. 108;

    See link I already referred you to the Sudarium Domini and Sindon Munda featuring only “drops” or blood and sweat “dew drops of the cross” (neither face nor body image).

    – According to distinguisd etymologists the alternate etymology for Rose Croix is Ros Crucis (see e;g. link at:,d.d2s

    These are no wild speculations as a High School Teacher or Medical Doctor could think out of their NON-familiarity with Etymology, Cryptography and Christ’s shrouds Iconography.

    1. In light of Christ’s Shrouds, “The Dew of the Cross” HAS TO DO with the issue here. MD Heimburger is WRONG. I very much like him to give me his allegedly “scientiifc explanation” for the very presence of a Black Virgin with Jesus child in conjunction with the TS.

  56. They refer to the Alchemic Life and Eternal Youth fountain impersonation of Mater(ia) Prima and child of the Opera Magna (to parallel with Latin ‘Linus Colonia’, “Worshipping place of the Linen(cloth)” > as in LINCOLN). Yeshu’a is the philosopal stone/ Al-Iksir, Arabic name for miracle substance(s) > Elixir in terms of the Dew of the Cross.

    1. Etymologically and cryptographically speaking, shall I repeat LINCOLN can read LINDUM COLONIA, “worshipping place by the Lake/Fountain’s reservoir (of Life and Eternal Youth)”

      1. The rectangular LINeN CLOth does look (in primary or pareidoliac visualisation/sindonographic archaeocryptoperception) as a water and blood reservoir (for Redemption, Heb. Gaal) with its zigzag pattern in conjunction with “the Dew of the Cross”.

  57. Excerpt from: Sign of Jonah and the Great Fish aka Jesus/Yeshu’a in Jules Verne’s L’ILE MYSTEREUSE? by Max Patrick Hamon

    What happens if we take cryptographic scissors to L’ILE MYSTERIEUSE and cut out all the possible hidden references to the TS as the Sign of Jonah in light of the Language of the Birds cryptographic system?

    The great white shark (also known as the great white, white pointer, white shark, or WHITE DEATH, species of large « fish of prey”-shaped shark ») that can be found in the coastal surface waters of all the major oceans does seem to have been referred to in The Mysterious/Phantom Island (L’ILE LINCOLN) in conjunction with ‘the Gulf of the Shark’, an appellation alluding to the specific and cryptic form of the gulf (gulf is drerived from the Greek kolpos, “bosom” as in “the bosom of Abraham (Lincoln). Now raham in Abraham is the parent noun of the Hebrew verb raham. It is the masculine רחם (rhm; pronounced as rehem or raham), meaning womb = bosom (Genesis 49:25, Exodus 13:12, Jeremiah 20:17).

    The great white shark is mainly known for its size, with mature individuals growing up to 6.4 m (21 ft) in length and of which average size is 4 to 6 m long and 1 to 2 m wide, which by the way is in keeping with the TS image length and width seen in conjunction with its zigzag patterned background similar to the pattern used to symbolise water on the maps.
    In the time of Jules Verne, the ‘white death’/’big fish’ was believed to have a life span of over 30 years, which is consistent too with Yeshu’a estimate age (33-37) (the true lifespan of great white sharks is far longer; now estimated to be as long as 70 years or more, making it one of the longest lived cartilaginous fish currently known). Re cartilaginous ‘great fish’, the TS man as Ichthus, Greek for “fish” and known colloquially as “the sign of the fish,” (in reference to “Jesus Christ G-d’s Son Savior”), as sort of left his body “cartilaginous”/skin imprint on the inner side of the LINeN CLOth (LIN.N CLO.. as the emBEDded anagram for (L’ILE) LINCOLN).

    (to be continued or not)

  58. – “We are in the shark’s mouth,” remarked Nab, alluding to the form of the gulf.

    Implicitly, the protagonists not only meet about the same fate as Robinson Crusoe’s* but that of Jonas too.

    * Re Rosicrucian hints in JV’s novel: the initial R+C in the name RObinSon CRUoeS, along with the words ROS CRUS embedded hint at Latin Ros crucis, “Dew of the Cross” (see e.g. Ross Cross etymology in “Symbolism and Hidden Meaning of the Rose Cross” The same initials in light of the sign of Jonah also do echo the initials for Resurrectio Christi, “the Resurrection of Christ”.

  59. Max is doing some excellent work and last year I told him to put at least some of it in pdf and Dan could upload it. Perhaps he is waiting to fill the gaps. Meanwhile the comments…
    Hey Max, it could be the “cha matte”. Take care, it can keep people highly strung, I’ve seen it in Southern Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay. In Paraguay it is called “Te re re”, drunk hot first thing in the morning and cold during the rest of the day, stored in a flask. The farmers in these places have to be alert, with people stealing cattle, agricultural products etc. That is OK, the problem only arises when they have a .38 inside a holster at the side and a big knife behind.

    1. “Max is doing some excellent work … ”

      (Of course, this is a Cryptographic Rosicrucian anagrammatic reference).

      Dan, your blog is a wonderful mean to discuss seriously about the TS, including scientific, historical or theological points of view.

      Look carefully at this thread.
      The first 17 comments are interesting and (more or less) related to the subject.
      Then Max wrote:
      ” NO WONDER antibiotics may by their very success prove to be a deciding factor in the decline of the present civilization…” (!!!)
      And then :” Ever heard of VERY CHEAP probiotics?”
      Capital letters are from Max himself.
      Antibiotics, probiotics !!!!

      Finally and sadly Max succeeded in introducing his own obsessions.

      Now, in this tsunami, I am simply unable to find easily the comments of Colin or Hugh (etc.) to which I would like to answer.

      Dan , you wrote: ” Maybe a limit on the number of comments per day. What do you think ?”
      IMHO, I do think that a limit of 5 comments per day (not only for Max but for everybody) could be an acceptable compromise.

      1. I support Dan and Thibault’s suggestion of restricting the number of comments per day. The flow of mini-comments of Max makes very difficult to look for the answer to an prior comment done by others. I don’t know whether this is a tactic or an effect of Max’s mental labyrinth, but it is very disturbing to the normal debate in this forum.

        Max: I think it would be easy to write less and longer comments and everybody would be grateful to you.

      2. IMHO, I do think that a limit of 5 comments per day (not only for Max but for everybody) could be an acceptable compromise.

        I don’t think this is a good solution. During very intense debates (which happen from time to time) the limit of comments per day may be obstacle.

        Is there maybe a technical possibility to merge all that small comments by Max into single one?

    2. Thibault: Comment on “Max is doing some excellent work”. above.
      Well, who is perfect in the realm of Shroud studies? Whatever is written, peer-reviewed or not, is hypothesis. A cult-like devotion to Rogers has been detected, but I don’t participate, not given to idolatry.
      Limit of 5 comments a day? Depends on the comments.

  60. Reminder for MD Thibault Heimburger:

    Re “ANTIBIOTICS: Their role in Declining American Health”, it was just a tongue-in cheek reply to Colin as alleged “bio”-chemist speaking out of his area of expertise. BTW Thibault do you recommend probiotics or antibiotics to your patient?

    Here is the article from which the quote is taken:

    “It is ironic that this humbled fungus, hailed as a benefactor of mankind, may by its very success prove to be a deciding factor in the decline of the present civilization.”
    ~Dr. John I. Pitt, The Genus Penicillum, Academic Press, 1979

    Antibiotics are indiscriminate killers of bacteria. Not only do they kill “bad” bacteria but the beneficial bacteria that live in the intestines as well. This imbalance of organisms can cause a disruption of digestion, decreasing our ability to properly absorb nutrients from foods, and makes us more vulnerable to pathogens, especially yeast. These unfriendly organisms rapidly repopulate the gastrointestinal tract and wreak havoc, causing additional infections that can occur in almost any region or organ of the body.

    Our good bacteria makes up 75% of our immune system and is our first line of defense against illness. Think of it as our home land security. Each time we take an antibiotic, we are “taking out” a good portion of this security and leaving ourselves open to further assaults. Doing this over and over again results is declining health.

    We’ve all run to the doctors from time to time when we’ve not felt well. Often times we end up leaving the doctor’s office with a prescription for an antibiotic even if that wasn’t what was needed to resolve our current health problem.

    Antibiotics given for viral infections such as the common cold, upper respiratory tract infections and bronchitis are pointless because antibiotics do not kill viral infections. However, doctors may resort to giving antibiotics so the patient won’t leave empty handed or because the patient is adamant that this is what is needed. Either way, this is a prescription for disaster.

    Antibiotic resistance is becoming a major concern and is increasing worldwide. Here in the US we take an estimated 133 million antibiotic prescriptions per year, according to the government accounting office. A full ½ of these prescriptions are not needed according to current estimates. Many of these are given to fight viral infections.

    Although there use in humans is the biggest contributor of antibiotic resistance, it has been reported that 70% of the antibiotics produced in the USA each year are fed to our livestock (pigs, chickens, and cattle). This information is cause for further concern.

    Is the excessive use of antibiotics connected to escalating rates of illness (esp. autoimmune diseases) in the US and throughout the world? There are some experts that think there is indeed a connection.

    Antibiotics in Livestock

    Antibiotics have been used extensively in agriculture since the 1960s. Most are not given for disease prevention, but as growth promoters. Healthy farm animals are estimated to receive an astounding 50% to 70% of all antibiotics produced in the US.

    The practice of giving livestock antibiotics has also come under scrutiny from those who believe that it does increase the likelihood of antibiotic resistance in humans.

    Could eating meat and poultry from animals that have been given antibiotics ultimately affect our good bacteria and lead to yeast overgrowth? The jury is still out on that one, but there are experts who believe this trend could be a threat to our health! Lets not forget that animals today are often given growth hormones as well.

    Breast cancer and other cancers are on the rise. Could antibiotics and growth hormones given to fatten cattle and other livestock be partially responsible for the increased cancer statistics? Again, some think so!

    For more on antibiotics, fungus and their effects on our health, we recommend checking out this link: You can also view recorded shows by the host, Doug Kaufmann!”

  61. Colin, Matching your ‘scientific’ research and studies and words with actions should mean you’re eating two BIO green bananas a day. Are you really? (they are the best source of resistant starch: the less ripe a banana is, the more resistant starch it contains).

    All theses studies and research just to sell green bananas in pharmacies and make big money (natural green banana flour/powder in pharmacies are always much much more expensive, than sold as fruit even in Biosupermarkets!). Nowi it is KNOWN FOR AGES both green and ripe bananas are very good both for your physical and mental health This is BIG SCIENCE indeed! How much were you paid to have green bananas be sold in pharamacies?

    Re antibiotics,
    On February 16, 2013 at 1:21 pm, scientist Colin wrote:
    “Science can only test the testable (so annoyingly restrictive I know). But it’s through following that self-denying ordinance that science has brought us antibiotics (but sadly the atomic bomb too)… You win some, you lose some. Who knows what ‘truths’ one fails to spot when declining to address the untestable?
    PS: Tomorrow’s my big day. Tomorrow’s when I finally tackle head-on the surviving Mr. (Dr.) Big of STURP and indeed Shroudology, after trying to keep a safe distance from this ‘big hitter’ for the best part of a year. Can you guess who? I don’t suppose he’ll be quaking in his shoes – but I will…”

    On February 16, 2013 at 1:49 pm and 1:57 pm, I replied:
    “CB, to really assess the “science” behind the antibiotics, why don’t you read instead Dr. John I. Pitt, The Genus Penicillium, Academic Press, 1979. He wrote: “It is ironic that this humbled fungus, hailed as a benefactor of mankind, may by its very success prove to be a deciding factor in the decline of the present civilization.”
    Reminder for CB with ‘bio” (I?) or ‘antibio’ chemistry PhD: antibiotics ALSO kill the beneficial bacteria within your intestines. As such they lead to serious health risks.
    Max Planck who won the 1918 Nobel Prize in Physics, once weighed in as to why science is slow to change even in the presence of overwhelming evidence that it should do so.
    “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light,” Planck said, “but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new
    generation grows up that is familiar with the ideas from the beginning.”

    On February 16, 2013 at 2:00 pm, Colinsberry replied:
    “As I say: you win some, you lose some. But it’s a minority of antibiotic-recipients who get overgrowth of Campylobacter etc.due to suppression of commensals or “friendly bacteria”. (In case you weren’t aware, you’re dealing with a one-time dietary fibre specialist/ Head of Nutrition/Food Safety at an industrial UK food research association).”

    On February 16, 2013 at 2:02 pm and 2:09 pm and,February 17, 2013 at 11:47 am I replied:
    “Keep in mind the post-antibiotic importance of restoring the intestinal terrain with plain yogurt and natural probiotics or colloidal silver. If you experience bloating, belching, gas, constipation, diarrhea, GERD, or other intestinal problems, probiotics can play an important role in restoring your intestinal terrain.
    Selling antibiotics to sell probiotics…that’s the whole “science” behind it. Some will win (always the same), some will lose (always the same).
    How long are irresponsible ‘scientists’ to rely on the “win some lose some” principle when antibiotics may by their very success prove to be a deciding factor in the decline of the present civilization?”

    “science without conscience is but the ruin of the soul”, Rabelais, (Pantagruel Chapter 8)

    1. 2 =Moi (CB)

      3 & 4 = Professor John Cummings and Dr.Hans Englyst

      Dietary fibre symposium, London, circa 1986

      And below: Reprint: 1986 Englyst and Cummings with the first published reference to enzyme-resistant starch in bananas – green versus ripe:

  62. Just in case the right of reply in this blog could be the right to defend oneself against public criticism in the same venue where it was published:

    On this blog, absent a British biochemist’s worn-out cynicism and sneaky mockery and a Science of the Earth British high scool teacher’s repeated misrepresentations and obsessive archscepticism, my opinion Jules Verne’s novel, L’ILE MYSTERIEUSE (The Mysterious Island/MI), is cryptographically Shroud-related was met by an unusually mocking, depising and insulting prose : that of a French MD’s who —either through ignorance, incapacity, or prejudice— misrepresented and discarded my opinion.

    . Quote : MD Thibault HEIMBURGER
    February 9, 2015 at 4:30 pm
    “[…] 80-90% of these ‘comments’ made by Max are truly foolish, insulting and out-of-topic (Jules Vernes, Rose Croix..) . Why not the Alien ???
    I regret that some of you have decided to answer to him.
    This is pity!
    Do not answer please!”

    The physician shroudie’s harsh and insulting criticism was all the more unexpected as, acting as if he thought he was the high priest and safekeeper of ‘good shroudology’ and, implicitly, a recognised authority in cryptological matters in general and cryptographic literature in particular, he went as far as ordering people commenting in this very blog, NOT TO REPLY to me! Was the man qualified as a professional cryptologist or a Verne scholar?

    Sadly when it comes to the Turin Shroud, most of the time both anti-authenticists and ‘shroudies’ have no capacity or even interest in understanding, they only want to air their UNSUBSTANTIAL negative unqualified opinions while authoritatively speaking out of their field of expertise (if any).

    Reminder: Since 2005, I have been a professional cryptologist (cryptology applied to Archaeology, Criminology and Therapy –in terms of efficiency of transdisciplinary alternative medecines). I also taught French literature, language and civilisation abroad for four years. From 1988 to present, I devoted most part of my leisure time to archaeoperceptive research and studies on the Turin Shroud in light of Late Antique Apocalyptic Christian Literature (esp. The Book of Revelation), Palaeochristian Art, Syriac and Byzantine secret liturgies and Art, Medieval Hagiographic Legends and Iconography, Arthurian Medieval Literature and Iconography, Templar enigmatic graffitis etc). Most obviously, Colin, Hugh and Thibault have eyes, but don’t see, ears but don’t hear, brain but don’t think as far as cryptology, cryptanalysis and cryptography are concerned. When was it, last time, Thilbault et al read L’ILE MYSTERIEUSE (if he/they ever read it !)?

    Reminder for amateur cryptologists: « In a rush to bring [Jules Verne’s] most popular (and profitable) stories to market, British and American translators repeatedly watered them down and abridged them by chopping out most of the science and the longer descriptive passages (often from 20 to 40% of the original); they committed thousands of basic translating errors, mistakes that an average high-school student of French would have managed correctly; they censored Verne’s texts by either removing or diluting references that might be construed as anti-British or anti-American; and, in several instances, they totally rewrote Verne’s narratives to suit their own tastes (changing the names of the characters, adding new scenes, deleting others, relabeling the chapters, and so on). »
    —Arthur B. Evans, Jules Verne’s English Translations in SCIENCE FICTION STUDIES, XXXII:1 #95 (March 2005): 80.

    By short instalments, I do hope Dan will allow me to demonstrate in his blog Jules Verne’s L’ILE MYSTERIEUSE is cryptographically Shroud-related. Indeed his cryptographic technique is deeply rooted both in early (crypto)christian apocalyptic literature and medieval hagiographic and arthurain literatures.

  63. Typo: Sadly when it comes to the Turin Shroud, most of the time both anti-authenticists and ‘shroudies’ have no capacity or even interest in understanding, they only want to air their UNSUBSTANTIAL negative unqualified opinions while authoritatively NOT SPEAKING OUT OF THEIR FIELD OF EXPERTISE (if any).

  64. Reminder for Thibault Heimburger, Hugh Farey and Colin Berry:

    “The current predominant world paradigm is that if a thing can not be explained, detailed, analysed and documented by linear scientific thought processes then it’s mumbo jumbo. If you have a spiritual explanation for human existence then you’re crazy, you’re in dream land. The scientific mindset says everything in the universe must be capable of explanation either now or at some point in the future by scientific analytic methods alone. Science says “In the absence of scientific proof it’s not worth the time discussing. If it can not be put in a box with a label then forget it. Go figure out what box you can put it in, label it, then come back to us and we’ll see if we agree”. Can you see the limitations that this puts on human development?”

    Josh Richardson

    Josh Richardson is blogger, healer, and a constant pursuer of the natural state of human consciousness.

  65. BTW I am still waiting for MD Thilbault’s explanation for the presence of a Black Madonna depicted in conjunction with the Holy Shroud to make ‘scientific’ sense unless he thinks it is totally out-of-topic in the above depiction of the unfolded famouus relic and even truly foolish to risk explanations as I have done… since most obviously cryptology is not his cup of tea. What’s your obsession, Doctor, as far as the TS is concerned?

  66. Actually the presence of the Black Virgin and Child in conjunction with the unfolded Holy Shroud (unfolded = mystery/secrets of the Crosss unraveled to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear) is based on the idea that both the cross of the wood and the shroud of Christ were effective bearers of the Messiah. Actually, during early Christian time the cross was made a part of a diachronic ‘shadow play’ between the Old and New Testaments (“Those things which of old the prophet sang in dark figure the new generation of the Maker made clear”) while the Shroud bearing the image of the Messiah was the secret of secrets whence the hard time to fill the TS historical gap.

    It is also rooted in the intercultural implantation of the Queen of Sheba in conjunction with the wood of the cross of Christ as lignum vitae. For the fanciful and widespread medieval legend of the origins of the wood of the cross has led to a specific tradition of the Queen of Sheba.

    Actually in the 12th c. CE, the Queen of Sheba was also known as the one who “by gifts secretly signifies the faith of Solomon”, Latin REGINA.SABA. MISTICAT.INDONIS REGINA DIDEM SALEMONIS (see e.g. the Verdun Altar). The sentence in Laitn plays with the word SINDONIS (the Lord’s Sindon). Now in Hebrew, the biblical name Solomon has the same root (ShLMH) as Salmana, “shelter”, “protective shadow (of the crypt)” and Salmon, “protective Image”, “protective Idol”.

    “(…) In the legend of the True Cross, the Queen is actually the first person who worships the wood with supernatural knowledge of the crucifixion. )…) In the so-called Historia, a manuscript dating before 1150, from Regensburg and kept in Munich, it is told how, in the time of David, a Jew finds a piece of wood with three branches which he brings to the king. By divine inspiration, David recognizes the Messianic function of the wood and has it gilded (alike Christian Black Virgins, comment mine). Solomon also worships it. The Queen of Sheba predicts that one day a man will hang from that particular piece of wood and that this will spell the end of the Jews.” (see The Wood, The Water, and the Foot, or how the Queen of Sheba met up with the True Cross. With emphasis on the Northern European Iconography, in “Mitteilungen für Anthropologie und Religiongeschichte (MARG), 16, Münster , 2004, p. 221, 225 sqq)

    “One constant is that from the 12th century onward, in the Legend of the True Cross, the Queen of Sheba is privileged with the insight of Christ‟s coming (see מרן אתא: maran ‘athâ’, “The Lord has come”, the two-word Aramaic formula used in the Book of Revelation, comment mine), and also acts accordingly. Sheba is privileged with the insight of Christ‟s coming, and also acts accordingly. It is she who recognizes the mystery of the wood of the cross and in all conscience leads the wood to its destination. Against what background has the Queen of Sheba taken over this function within the Legend of the Cross? Which literary clues have led her to the foreground precisely in the 12th century? A primary answer lies couched in the typological interpretations which found access during the 12th century. Isaiah 60.6 says that a flood of camels and dromedaries, as well as gold and incense will cover the citizens of Sheba and that they will “proclaim the praise of the Lord.” This prediction stands in the context of the glory of the New Jerusalem and thus must be understood eschatologically. With regard to a challenge from the Pharisees (“Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you” [Mt. 12.38]), Matthew foretells, “The queen of the south will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to listen to the wisdom of Solomon, and see, something greater than Solomon is here!” (Mt. 12.42; Lk. 11.31).” (ibidem, p. 225)

    Thilbault have you ever heard about it before passing untimely and discourteous remarks?

  67. Addendum: last but not least, the same Hebrew word ShLMH for ShLMoH, “Solomon”, pronounced ShLaMaH means “protection”, “(inner/outer) garment” = Sindon in Greek while the verb ShaLam means “to accomplish”, “to complete” (see Yeshua’s death and last words, John 19:30) while in Hebrew sheba/sheva (The Queen of Sheba) is “seven” symbol of perfection/accomplishment:completion.

  68. How long will my February 23, 2015 at 4:45 pm comment be awaiting moderation?

    “February 23, 2015 at 4:45 pm Reply
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Addendum: last but not least, the same Hebrew word ShLMH for ShLoMoH, “Solomon”, pronounced ShLaMaH means “protection”, “(inner/outer) garment” = Sindon in Greek while the verb ShaLam means “to accomplish”, “to complete” (see Yeshua’s death and last words, John 19:30) while in Hebrew sheba/sheva (The Queen of Sheba) is “seven” symbol of perfection/accomplishment/completion.

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