Tom Devins writes:
. . . I have just released a web site that contains a very different perspective on the Shroud. Thought you might be interested.
Visit it at www.jesuddha.com.
The tablet version has some formatting issues but all the information is there.
Hope to meet you at the conference.
From the first page:
[. . . ] In Christian doctrine, Jesus’ resurrection is the exemplary event that led to the belief in resurrection of everyone’s body on the so called last day. It is an exemplary event that never
happened. The Catholic Encyclopedia says it all; “It would destroy the very idea of resurrection, if the dead were to rise in bodies not their own.” What if they don’t rise, “egerthe”, at all? Suddenly, the reality of reincarnation, a notion popular in Jesus’ day, accepted by Him and by some early Church fathers, comes into focus.
We at Jesuddha are dedicated to bringing the message of the Shroud to the forefront so that it can be addressed in Church teaching. The Christian institution is arguably the most influential of all times and the world would be far worse off without it. Far from tearing it down, it is our objective to ensure its survival by promoting timely and systematic change in teaching in line with what we now know. The Church is heavily invested in its infrastructure, facilities and following and is far too important be allowed to remain static where change is indicated.
“the reality of reincarnation, a notion popular in Jesus’ day, accepted by Him and by some early Church fathers, comes into focus. ”
Pure poppycock….
Prove it.
I don’t know if Jesus believed it, but the people of the day appeared to believe it
Mat 16:14
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Elias and other were dead so some believed that they came back as Jesus.
“Elias and other were dead so some believed that they came back as Jesus.”
Not a big fan of the OT, huh, John?
Elias = Elijah, who did not die, but was “taken up”. And, p.s., they were not talking about reincarnation, but the return of a prophet(s).
Jeremias too?
Let’s look at the question
Mat 16:13
¶
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Jesus was asking who do people think HE is.
Their response: “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
Suggests that at least the common folk believed in the possibility of reincarnation to some degree. Elijah was taken and John the Baptist was a case of mistaken identities… But what about Jeremiah? Some sources have him dying at Tahpanhes, others elsewhere, but none have him being taken away by a flaming chariot.
Also, the flaming chariot was a rare occurrence, excluding Enoch and Elijah, any other prophet would be considered “dead” by the layperson.
Nabber writes “Jesus, aware of “undoctrinal” talk about who he might be, was setting up a straw man in order to knock such arguments down (and later, the evangelists wrote it).”
There is no strawman here. Jesus wasn’t misrepresenting or exaggerating anyone’s arguement here and then arguing his possition based on that. There was no debate going on. He asked a very simple question, “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” not, Whom do men say I’m like?, Not Whom do I remind them of?.The answer was just as clear.
While I accept many of Eastern philosophy ideas reincarnation is not one of them.
TYPO’s
Nabber writes “Jesus, aware of “undoctrinal” talk about who he might be, was setting up a straw man in order to knock such arguments down (and later, the evangelists wrote it).”
There is no straw man here. Jesus wasn’t misrepresenting or exaggerating anyone’s argument here and then arguing his position based on that. There was no debate going on. He asked a very simple question, “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” not, Whom do men say I’m like?, Not Whom do I remind them of?. The answer was just as clear.
In Shakespeare’s ‘Merchant of Venice’ trial scene, plaintiff Shylock proclaims the ‘young lawyer from Padua’ (Portia in disguise) “another Daniel” for her legal analysis. The talk around Jesus concerning who he was, may have been just as metaphorical, with no real allusions as to his actual identity.
John Green quotes: ” He asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?”
I agree with DaveB. Jesus, aware of “undoctrinal” talk about who he might be, was setting up a straw man in order to knock such arguments down (and later, the evangelists wrote it). And He did.There may have been illiterates who believed in reincarnation, but no one steeped in the teachings of the mainline rabbis….
Christian tradition, to my knowledge, only teaches that a resurrected body is a glorified body — and leaves it at that. The resurrection stories of Jesus note how Jesus’ body was not exactly as it was before death (they did not recognize him) and yet it was still his body (the wounds). The tomb is empty which further points to the fact that something happened to Jesus’ actual body.
The concept of reincarnation involves a soul continually going through a cycle of rebirth, from infant to adult. This is so completely different than Jesus’ resurrection that to connect the two, other than in the broadest strokes, is nonsensical.