Starting at comment #26, from among some 55 comments to a previous post, Coins on Eyes Issue Again, there is an interesting and important discussion going on about tape sample locations on the Shroud of Turin: Who took which sticky tape samples where and when?
In comment #27, Barrie Schwortz writes:
Sadly, Max Frei died years ago. However, in 1978 NO researchers were permitted to take sticky tape samples from the face of the man of the Shroud. I documented every minute of Max’s tape sampling experiment photographically and I can assure you that neither he nor Rogers took any tape samples from the face.
By comment #54, Max Patrick Hamon is writing:
Barry (sic) wrote “there was no way for Frei” to take a sample from the TS man’s face, I AM STILL ASKING HIM HOW COME THEN in one of Avinoam Dannin’s research paper on the TS one can read:
“A bouquet of rock rose, which I (Avinoam Danin) had noted along with the crown chrysanthemum in 1995, appears on THE RIGHT CHEEK of the human profile on the shroud. Dr. FR HAD PLACED HIS ADHESIVE TAPE No. 6bd AT THAT SPOT(bolds are mine) and actually found some grains of rock rose pollen long before anyone had discovered images of the plant on the shroud.”?
How can Barry account for the existence of 1978 Frei’s sticky tape No. 6bd REMOVED FROM THE TS man’s RIGHT CHEEK? THIS IS A MATERIAL FACT!
(Myself I have detected at least 4 flower heads among which one petaless flower head on the left side of the TS man’s face).
By comment #55, Hugh Farey is writing:
There is a plan [right and larger version below] of the shroud showing tape sample areas taken in 1978 on the McCrone Research Institute website, which does not show a sample 6BD. However the numbering is somewhat obscure (at least to me). It looks as if there were 6 sample phases (although they are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9), each one labelled alphabetically, with the suffix F or B to indicate the frontal or back image. These constitute the 32 samples often mentioned. However, the alphabetical series are full of gaps.
Series 1 covered the back of the legs and is lettered AB to JB, but CB is missing.
Series 2 covered the front of the legs and is lettered AF to CF, with a plain 2-F just to confuse things.
Series 3 covers an area of Lirey holes (AF to EF) and also a midriff area of the back (AB to FB, with DB missing).
Series 4 has an EB on the back of the neck, and a 4-F on a non-image area.
Series 5 is missing altogether.
Series 6 covers the chest, AF, BF and DF, but no CF.
Series 7 & 8 are missing altogether, and Series 9 covers the top of the head, AF to CF.
Perhaps somebody could explain this?
It is usually stated that Max Frei also took some samples in 1973, which of course the STURP team were not involved with. Perhaps one of these was the sample Danin was talking about. The sample number sounds bit fishy though. Danin’s paper mentions sample 6BD. I wonder if that’s a misprint for 6DB, which would make more sense, but in that case it would refer to a sample on the back of the image, not the cheek.
Perhaps somebody could explain this too?
Looks like we need a cryptanalyst here! However, looking at the new picture, which is wholly inconsistent with McCrone’s 1978 plan, and presumably shows 1973 samples, is it possible that these slides show cartesian co-ordinates, dividing the shroud into, say 10cm squares, labelled A, B, C etc along one axis, and a, b, c along the other? It still looks inconsistent though, doesn’t it? Is Avinoam Danin contactable, I wonder?
I will write to him.
Hypothetically speaking, even if Aninoam confused a 1973 sticky sample with a 1978 sticky sample, it shall be reminded here it was also said then (i.e. in 1973) NO sticky samples had been removed from the face!
It is quite possible that the sample being discussed was taken in 1973 as Max points out, but I have no information on those samples at all. However, maybe the questions should be addressed to the man who now holds the Frei collection, Dr. Alan Whanger, or to Paul Maloney, who had the Frei collection and studied it extensively for several years before transferring it to Whanger. They might be able to provide more accurate information than either Danin or Lucotte.
As I said in my earlier post, in 1978 I photographed Frei’s sample taking from beginning to end and, at one point, he did reach to put tape on the Shroud face. It was that moment that John Jackson intervened and physically stopped him from doing so and a moment later I made a well known photo of the resulting confrontation. (See http://www.shroud.com/gallery/thumbnails/5-B-5.jpg).
I think the idea that the samples in question might have come from Frei’s 1973 examination makes a lot of sense.
Barrie your comment agreeing that a tape sampling may have been done in 1973, rings a bell in that I have read that the eye area (where the leptin coin supposedly can be seen) was damaged somewhat. Apparently the threads were twisted or something to that line in 1973…one would suppose maybe from this tape sampling action? I would deduce that since the area ‘may’ have been damaged prior to the 1978 photographs, it is quite possibly the reason no such image can be seen on any photos taken afterward. I seriously cannot remember where I read this,; Would you have any idea about this? As to the photo you have linked us to, I am curious as to what kind of conversation transpired between the two, lol, I’m sure it was quite entertaining. Did you happen to hear it?
I believe Dr. Alan Whanger made that statement some years ago, although he was not referring to damage done by tape samples, but rather by rolling and unrolling the Shroud. However, he provided no data to support his claim so it was mainly conjecture. As for the conversation between Frei and Jackson (with Luigi Gonella acting as referee), it was very heated and was specifically about putting tape ANYWHERE on the face of the image. It ended with the decision that NO ONE would take any tape samples from the face, which is considered the most iconic part of the Shroud image.
Sorry for the small thumbnail. Here’s a slightly larger version: http://www.shroud.com/gallery/images/5-B-5.jpg
A thought occurs to me.. Were there not two sets of tape samples? Does the diagram above refer to the STURP’s sensitive pressure-determined samples or to Max Frei’s? And if STURP’s, did Frei make an index at all (in 1978, that is, assuming the criss-cross diagram was for 1973).
This should be checked too.
There were two sets of tape samples taken in 1978, one by Frei and the other by Rogers. I believe the above diagram is of Frei’s sampling. You can find a map of Rogers’ sample sites at this link: http://www.shroud.com/mapping.htm
Thanks for clearing that up Barrie. Best wishes over the holidays.
Actually Whanger was referring to the different stretchings the TS was subjected to in 1973 and 1978. He did notice slight image typologogical shifts from 1973 Shroud overall photographs to 1978 ones.
Typo: image TOPOlogical shifts
Actually, Whanger was referring to the 1931 Enrie photos. No major photography was done in 1973.
Actually, there was a video (and video stills OR photographs) from the Italian TV 1973 showing the TS was subjected to extreme stretching compared to1931 Enrie’s and 1978 Miller’s Sindon face and overall photographs.
Typo : showing the TS was subjected to extreme stretching in 1973
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