Hong Kong archaeologist William Meacham (pictured), longtime Shroud of Turin scholar and author of"The Rape of the Turin Shroud,” sent a detailed response to a comment by Gabriel on January 2.
First, here is Gabriel’s comment again:
Following with my previous comment, a recent research (*) has shown that using a set of 11 trace elements (Al, Ti, Ni, As, Rb, Y, Mo, Ag, Cd, Ba, and La) and not just a dubtious one like C14, it is possible to identify the region of the world a linen comes from. The authors have achieved to distinguish linens from Poland, Italy and JApan using those 11 trace elements.
I think it would really be helpful to carry out the same analysis on the Shroud and clearly establish whether its linen comes from the Middle East (one point for authenticity) or from let’s say France. In case the linen came from France, we could once and for all rule out the possibility of an authentic relic. In case, it came form the Middle East it wouldn`t mean that the Shroud is authentic 100%, but would represent a very strong point in its favour.
(*)Takako Inoue, Kengo Ishihara and Kyoden Yasumoto.International Journal of Clothing Science and Technology Vol. 22 No. 2/3, 2010 pp. 174-186
Here is Dr. Meacham’s response:
[re:] "Comparative analysis of hand properties and compositions of trace elements in linen fabrics produced in different regions" in: International Journal of Clothing Science and Technology, Vol. 22 No. 2/3, 2010
I had a look at this paper thru the university library, and it doesn’t have much relevance to determining the geographical origin of the Shroud.
The samples were all modern, and the researchers were mainly interested in industrial aspects of the "linen fabrics which were used to make suits, jackets, trousers, skirts, blouses, one-piece dresses, etc." In addition to trace elements, they also tested for mechanical properties like thermal conductivities, air permeability, elasticity, drape, etc.
The introduction sounded promising:
"In this paper, the effects of environmental conditions on the growth, development and yield of the following varieties of fiber flax were estimated: Fortuna, Minerwa, Svapo, Waza, and Nike. The environmental parameters were the soil composition, the type and pH of the soil, the climatic conditions, the time of agronomic operations, and the agronomy level."
But then things get very confused. One set of samples was described thus:
"The growing districts for the linen fabrics from company A were Ireland and North France; the yarn was processed in Italy and woven, dyed, and finished in Japan."
To my mind that renders the study fairly useless as far as trace elements related to geographical origin, since some of the elements could have been picked up at various points in the processing.
Even if one had say 18th century linen samples securely provenanced, the cross-breeding of species and borrowing of methods of fertilizing, retting, etc. would cast doubt on a trace element approach, unless one had results of very clear and distinct clusters with no overlap — a very doubtful outcome.
A more promising approach would be stable isotope ratios which should be determined solely by the environment in which the flax was grown. But it is unclear whether this would yield distinctive results that would distinguish specific regions, say the Middle East from North Africa, or Greece from Spain.
It would be good to see a pilot study if pre-modern linen samples could be found.
Bill
Well, although I agree with some of the difficulties pointed out by Bill, my comment, to be fully understood was a follow up of a previous one:
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“In this sense, I would say that the true scientifc challenge –and I connect here with Russ’s previous post- is developing an ad-hoc methodology for dating ancient Middle East linens. I mean, at this moment, addresing the problem of the dating of the Shroud requires at this moment to develop a specific methodology which –unfortunately- at this moment does not exist.
This would need a major international and coordinated effort with a high number of ancient linens and then develop specific and accurate methodologies. The main point would be to find a set of indicators in the linen composition which could only be associated to a specific period or area. The composition of the ground where the linen was grown has a specific chemistry that most surely can be tracked to the composition of the linen , through rare isotopes. Additionally, in the composition of the atmosphere of the 1st century there are certain compounds in proportions that can be known analyzing ancient ice cores. This also should leave a specific track in a 1st century linen. All this means promising methodologies to be fully developed yet. In my opinion, efforts should move in this direction and not on trying to get new C14 tests.”
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The main idea I wanted to convey is that to reach reliable results, ad-hoc methodologies are yet to be developed with a database of ancient linens using trace elements and also isotopes just like Bill points out in his answer. In this sense, isotope concentrations from ice cores may also be helpful for datation.
I partially agree with the difficulty of the source of trace elements but I also think that the results the authors provide in Table 1 of their paper are rather robust. A second recent paper (in this case with cotton(*)) shows that particular combinations of trace elements can allow a correct identification of the state (in USA) the cotton comes from in 81% of the cases. In this case, the authors obtain “results of very clear and distinct clusters with no overlap”. I think that this sounds promising.
To summarize, my position is that the use of trace element/isotopes analysis represent a field to be explored and in the frame of a serious long-term research could yield some interesting results.
Thanks.
(*) Emily R. Schenk and Jose R. Almirall. Elemental analysis of cotton by laser-induced breakdown spectroscopy. May 2010 / Vol. 49, No. 13 / APPLIED OPTICS
2 years ago, I exchange some emails with Enrique Monte from the Spanish centro of sindonology and he told me that there’s a theoritical possibility to study the DNA of a linen sample to determine his geographical origin. I don’t know if the Spanish team have been able to carried some experiments about that versus the Sudarium of Oviedo but they had already planned to do so. I don’t think they were able to do a test like that because I think we would have heard something for sure. I don’t know the subject very well and really would like to know what a guy like Meacham would think of the possibility to study the DNA of the linen fibers.
DNA test on pollen? It´s at least possible (2005) to retrieve aDNA from sediment fossil pollen as old as 10000 years:
http://www.anst.uu.se/lapar168/Projects_files/Parducci%20et%20al%202005.pdf
And you can find numerous other similar papers. The question is how good it works for pollen in the same condition as the Turin shroud pollen. Promising reading on p. 2:
“The outer walls of pollen grains are extremely resistant to chemical and physical attack”
If it´s possible to analyze DNA segments from pollen it would then be possible, I guess, to classify pollen down to species level which would be interesting in the case of the Turin shroud.
And it´s possible to radiocarbon date pollen as well. That’s a quit interesting potential combination of place and time determination. And even place and time determination over the shrouds history considering pollen attached at different times and locations.
The risk is of course that we lose materials which in the future could help us understand the shroud in even greater extent.
Interesting comment ! I think it’s a more promising avenue for the Sudarium of Oviedo than for the Shroud thanks to the vaccuming of the cloth done during the 2002 restoration ! The question is : can we found enough pollens now for a proper study ?
Also, the problem with radiocarbon dating the pollens is the evident question regarding the time when they were put on the cloth… For all we know, any pollens on the cloth could have come on the cloth just 100 years ago or 1000 years ago ! In my mind, it won’t be evident to determine the true age of the cloth with this method, even if there’s still enough pollens left on it to do a proper study.
By the way, in a book written on the Shroud in 2000 by Baima Bollone, he talked about some biological tests (I don’t remember if it is related to DNA studies) that could be done on the blood to determine his age !!! When I read that, I found this avenue really promising because we’re pretty sure the blood on the cloth is pretty much of the same age than the Shroud. I wonder if Mr. Moose or anybody else know something about that ???
Anyone has some informations about the possibility of a test like that ??? If it is possible to do this, I wonder why nobody in Shroud science has not thought to make it ! Maybe this is an indicator that this test is not good enough for a very old blood ?
Shroud pollen determined to young age wouldn’t prove anything I agree, though it would put the shroud in general, and Max Frei in particular, into some doubts if for example the Jerusalem originated pollen (species now established through DNA) only could be traced back a couple of decays or if none could be traced back any longer than some centuries. But I think you have a point that we after all would have been left with just speculations. It would certainly be harder though to explain away Jerusalem pollen dated to around Jesus lifetime.
Regarding the amount of pollen needed: one pollen grain is actually enough. One grain = many atoms!
Regarding Bollone:
With age I guess you mean 33 A.D. and not 33 years old? (Even if that would be interesting information as well). Never heard of Baima Bollone before, I´m kind of new to this subject. If he´s talking about DNA it´s probably related to what we know of human mutation patterns and rates. Something I know very little about, I´m more into physics. My guess though would be that the greatest challenge concerning DNA test of the blood would be too separate the DNA components in first place from DNA belonging to other persons. But other fields, for example those related to criminal investigations, would certainly have a great interest in this particular question and I´m certain that methods will be developed in the future. How far we will reach are of course only speculations.
Interesting comment. I’ll have to check out in Bollone’s book and get back to you on the method of dating old blood that he talked about. By the way, it’s really the datation of the blood that he talked about in the same manner than C14 can date a linen sample. But I’m sure he talked about another method than C14 for the datation of old blood. I think it was more like a biological related method. All get back to you soon about that.
I forget one thing about the possible DNA study of the pollens from the Sudarium of Oviedo. I just want to confirm that, for M. Monte, the main goal of this study was not to determine the age of the pollens but where they originate (the most probable geographic zone of distribution of a particular specie of linen). There’s one specie in particular that have a geographic zone of distribution that seem to be confined to the Palestine region. The evident question I have is this : Fine, but was it the same zone of distribution for this specie 2000 years ago ??? Big question ! So, I don’t think it will be really evident to obtain a real good reliable conclusion out of any pollen studies. But, like they say : it worth the try !
I made a mistake in my last comment : For the Spanish team, the DNA analysis of a sample from the Sudarium was not to study the pollens but the linen of the cloth. Excuse me ! If a DNA analysis can also be done on pollens, then why not ? But like I said, an analysis of the pollens is less evident because they could have come into the Shroud or the Sudarium well after their fabrication. It would be easy I think to cast doubts on the result of an analysis like that. More than a DNA analysis of the linen fibers of the cloth (the Sudarium and/or the Shroud), I’m sure.
Here’s what Baima Bollone said in his 2000 book about the Shroud on the subject of dating old blood samples (forgive my poor english translation, but you’ll get the point anyway) :
“Different methods have been proposed for the dating of blood stains. The first techniques for this estimation have been based on the evaluation of the diminution of the solubility of the hematic substance in a variety of aqueous solvents. Since a long time, the scientists thought that the color changes of the bloodstains from red to black were caused by the oxidation of the haemoglobin. Many researches were done to test that hypothesis. Petterson took measurements of the color changes with a reflectance colorimeter and succeed to invent an objective method for evaluating the age. A non-destructive spectrophotometric method has been developed by Kind and others, and a similar procedure has been applied to alkaline extracts from blood stains by Kind and Wozzon. The immuneelectrophoresis, the surface absorption spectrometry, the changes in enzymatic activities of the blood cells and an electronic resonance technique are some other methods applied to evaluate the age of blood stains.” Note : Baima Bollone then give the reference of a scientific article : J. Andrasko, The Estimation of Age of Bloodstains by HPLC Analysis, in Journal of Forensic Science, 42, 1997, pp. 601-607. He then said : “The same Andrasko has been able to evaluate the age of some bloodstains with a precision of + or – 2 months, thanks to the HPLC method.”
Interesting don’t you think ? Isn’t very strange that nobody (as I know) in sindonology have tried to make some studies like that from blood samples taken by the STURP ??? Nevertheless, I’ve noted that Baima Bollone never speak about the evaluation of VERY OLD BLOODSTAINS. Maybe those methods are only able to evaluate the age of recent bloodstains ? I’ve also noted that he never said a word about the FACT that the bloodstains from the Shroud are very particular in the sense that were not formed with complete blood, but instead, they were mainly formed by the direct contact between the cloth and blood clots that were still humid enough on their surface (at various degrees), so that they were able to leave a mirror imprint. Even if I’m no expert, I’m pretty sure that this particularity of the bloodstains on the Shroud make also things much more complex when it’s time to apply those methods to evaluate the exact age of the stains…
One thing’s for sure, if Adler was still alive, I would try to contact him in order to get is impression about those possibilities ! And I found it strange that a forensic expert like Baima Bollone simply talked briefly about those methods without mentioning if he, personally, have done some analysis like that. After all, he had in his possession some blood samples from his own investigation of the cloth done in 1978, just before the STURP. I would really like to know the point of view of a blood expert (or at least a forensic expert) about those possible methods to evaluate the age of bloodstains. Don’t you ?
Thank you for the quotation Yannick, found it fascinating. And I have never heard about these types of tests before. It always strikes me when I consider the shroud from a scientific perspective how many possibilities there should be out there, 2012, to reach some very conclusive results regarding place, time and authenticity. There is so much “stuff” to analyze. At the same time there seems to be so much ambiguity present, like the interesting contact formation of the blood hypothesis you mentioned for example with all its accompanied complications. Not to talk about what the restoration caused. A link between the Shroud and the Sudarium of Oviedo would really be beneficial. Maybe pollen (introduced again) can play a role here. If I had more time over I would have done some more detailed research in this area and not only present speculative ideas.
I agree completely. I’m sure if a new series of direct researches on the cloth would be allowed by the Vatican, if it is properly done, we will learn some very interesting things about the Shroud. We have to understand that the STURP team did his investigations at the end of the 70s and at the beginning of the 80s. Since, there’s is more avenues open to be explored, that’s for sure ! Let’s just hope that the future series of direct researches will be lead by a team as profesionnal as STURP was and that the Vatican will not hired some “supernatural freaks” to take part of this…
And for the blood stain formation hypothesis, you MUST read the great book of Pierre Barbet (translated in english) called “A doctor at calvary” !!! This hypothesis is well explained in it (even if there’s one particular aspect of Barbet’s idea that I disagree with). Nevertheless, it is a must read for every person interested in the forensic aspect of the Shroud. Here is the link to buy this book online : http://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Calvary-Passion-Described-Surgeon/dp/0912141042/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326673690&sr=8-1