Home > Image Theory, News & Views, Pareidolia > Comment Promoted: Of Coins and Flowers and More on the Shroud of Turin

Comment Promoted: Of Coins and Flowers and More on the Shroud of Turin

October 19, 2011

imageAnd I now think we have a picture of Yannick who has written so many great comments in this blog. This is his best comment (so far). I agree with him:

Because this subject was the starting point of this “debate”, I just want to share a personal reflection with you about the possible images of coins, flowers and other objects found on the Shroud by some researchers. It is a logical argument that goes against all those possibilities.

When it comes to analyse the Shroud, we always have to remember the context of the burial. It’s so important and, unfortunately, it’s an aspect of the question that is often forgotten ! We found a pretty good description of the burial of Jesus and the 2 days after in the 4 gospels. From this description, it is pretty clear that the burial rite was only partially done on friday because there was not enough time left to perform it completely (because the Sabbath and the Passover was at end and everyone had to be at home). From the gospel accounts, we know that the women had to go back to the tomb early Sunday morning to complete the burial rite with, among other things, an anointing with a perfume.

On the other hand, we have to understand that the action of putting flowers, coins or other objects into the Shroud, if it ever was planned, was an action surely reserved for the conclusion of the burial rite. It’s just logical to think that way. You don’t put coins over the eyes or throw flowers on the body before doing all the task of the burial rite, like an anointing with a perfume !

So, in this context, HOW IN THE WORLD THE PEOPLE WHO PERFORMED THE PARTIAL RITE ON FRIDAY WOULD HAVE PUT THINGS LIKE COINS, FLOWERS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT ON THE BODY OF JESUS (OR BESIDE THE BODY, IN THE SHROUD) WHILE THEY ALREADY KNEW THEY DIDN’T HAD TIME TO COMPLETE THE RITE AND THEY HAD TO COME BACK TO THE TOMB ON SUDAY MORNING TO FINISH THE JOB AND PERFORMED AN ANOINTING ON THE BODY ?

When you use your logic, that make absolutely NO SENSE !!! If those objects were left in the Shroud on Friday, they would have to take them out of the shroud on Sunday morning, performed the ritual anointing, and then place again those objects in the Shroud at the very end of the ritual. It’s not logical at all ! If those objects were planned to be left on the body or beside it in the Shroud, it’s almost sure they would have waited until the very end of the burial rite to do it. In the context describe above of an evident lack of time on Friday, wouldn’t you have done the same and wait until the end of the ritual on Sunday morning to add those objects in the Shroud (if there was any object at all to be place there) ??? I really think so !

I think this little reflection is enough to understand that those objects are simply not there on the Shroud… Or, if there really is images of those objects (I really don’t think so), they were surely formed in a separated event that is not related at all to the body image formation and this other image formation process had to take place AFTER the body image formation process was completed, during another period of time that could have taken place decades, if not centuries later. One thing’s for sure, if there really is some images of those things on the Shroud, they are not related to the burial of Jesus-Christ…

One last comment : The practice of putting coins over the eyes was directly taken from a pagan rite of Egypt. In this rite, the family would put coins over the eyes of the dead because they thought he would need money to pay is right to cross the Styx river ! So, in the context of the dead of Jesus, don’t you think it would be VERY strange for his family and disciples to perform a pagan rite during his entombment ??? That makes no sense to me… If there was any Jews who performed this kind of ritual, they were surely Hellenistic Jews and not pious Jews who practice the laws and rules received from Moses… This portrait doesn’t seem to correspond to the family and the disciples of Jesus who was not at all an Hellenistic Jew !!!

See: More on Freeing the HAL 9000: Yes, what is the Archdiocese of Turin afraid of? « Shroud of Turin Blog for all the comments leading up to this one.

And check out his music at http://www.yanmusik.com/

  1. ChrisFromDallas
    October 19, 2011 at 10:12 am

    I agree with your argument from a logical viewpoint. But Yannick, this isn’t just about logic, its about the emotions of the people who knew and loved Jesus. Was it logical to place flowers (and coins?) before completion of the burial rite, no; was it practical, certainly not. But when leaving the resting place of a loved one, how many of us wish to express what we’re feeling toward that person?

  2. Yannick Clément
    October 19, 2011 at 10:50 am

    I understand what you’re trying to say, but please don’t judge it with your modern eyes and try always to stay within the context. This burial wasn’t even supposed to be ! Normally, all the criminals that were executed were put into a common grave… If it wasn’t for the influence of a rich man like Joseph of Arimatea, you can bet your house that the body of Jesus would have been thrown into the common grave ! In addition, the Sabbath and the Passover were about to begin just a few hours after Jesus death ! In this context, when you’re really rushed and NOT PREPARED, do you lose time pickin’ flowers to embellish the shroud ? They just add enough time to take the body down from the cross (after Joseph had gone asking Pilate the permission to take the body of Jesus and after the centurion make sure that Jesus was really dead and also after Joseph had to buy a new shroud and maybe some other linen cloth for the emtombment), then move the body to the tomb, break the rigor mortis of the arms, then put it into a shroud and after that, put the body with the shroud in his resting place in the tomb. They didn’t had time for nothing else. The Jews of that time were not joking about the Sabbath (and don’t forget that it was also the Passover). There was VERY little time left to put the body into the tomb and move back home. From the gospel accounts, we know that they had to come back on sunday morning, which is the best proof they didn’t had too much time on friday and that they were not prepared for it. The ritual was only partialy done on friday, so I don’t see them putting flowers or coins or nothing else on the body or beside it in the shroud… I just don’t see one good reason to do that in the context I just mention.

  3. October 19, 2011 at 10:56 am

    – What Yannick says makes a lot of sense — but then, I still HOPE that the coins and flowers are real, and I agree with Chris that human logic is very often misguided. Most good ideas don’t work.
    – I’ll look on Shroud.com, but does anyone have evidence or arguments FOR these items close at hand?
    – Adrie, if you’ve provided some, I’ve missed it.

  4. Yannick Clément
    October 19, 2011 at 11:32 am

    If the coins and flowers images are real, I really think they have nothing to do with Jesus emtombment. If science prove one day that there are really images of those things, logically, we’ll have to conclude that they were formed AFTER the body image formation… But I don’t want to talk to much about that because it is pure speculation. Logic tells us that those things were not present in the tomb on friday and that those images are simply not there on the shroud.

  5. Gabriel from Spain
    October 19, 2011 at 11:57 am

    I would make a distinction between the flowers and the rest of objects and/or written letters. The reason for that is the the flowers were detected and recognized directly on the Shroud by the israeli expert Avinoam Danin when he personally had the opportunity to analize the shroud. During a private conversation with him at a conference I asked him whether the type of flowers he had identified had any special quality like nice smell or any other. He answered that to the best of his knowledge, they didn`t. Someone asked him whether they had any special meaning in the frame of a 1st Century jewish burial ritual. The answer again was the same. However, they seem to be there. The explanation migh be that those flowers could have been at the feet of the cross and perhaps were soaked with blood from the man being crucified. If so, according to the jewish tradition those flowers had to be incorporated into the tomb because the whole body -including the blood in the flowers- should await for the resurrection on the Last Day.
    A different issue is the coins, letters and rest of things that cannot be identified at first sight. Until HAl9000 images are released and analyzed I tend to think that they are artifacts. However, coming to the point of how strong was the importance of Greek culture on 1st Century Jews and their customs (coins on dead eyes, for example) it seems clear that some of Jesus`s disciples were fluent in Greek and some of them like Philip or Andrew bore greek names. Most probably, they were bilingual (aramaic-greek) and Jesus perhaps could also make his way through Greek, if not completely fluent too. SOme experts consider that the dialogue with Pilatos most probably took place in Greek since no translator is mentioned. With this I suggest that finding two coins on a dead body`s eyes would not be surprising since the Greek culture was strongly present everywhere in the 1st Century Israel. However, I agree that the main difficulty for the coins is the process used to “discover” them. If ever released, HAL9000 images will throw light on this issue.

  6. Yannick Clément
    October 19, 2011 at 1:08 pm

    As I see by the few comments that are already here, I notice that the question of those images are mainly a question of feeling (I think they should be there, I believe they are there, etc.) than reason. Regarding the subject (the possible Shroud of Christ), I think it’s normal in a sense. But I always prefer to use my logic and my reason than my feeling on this particular question because science is far away from giving us any real credible proof that those objects are there. When it is question of dirt, pollens, etc., now it’s a different story because science have proven they are there on the shroud. So, since it’s not the case for the flowers, coins and other images (like the possible goshtly writtings), I think using reason is better. And when we use reason without any feeling at all regarding who the man of the Shroud is supposed to be, again, I don’t see any good reason to think people would have lost time to put those things in the Shroud knowing full well that they had to come back to the tomb to finish the job on sunday morning. And for the argument of flowers cover by blood, if it was an obligation to buried them (I really don’t know about that), then, they could have just let them in some part of the tomb, waiting for the burial rite to be finish on sunday, before putting them into the shroud. And even then, I’m not sure those objects really needed to be put INTO the shroud. I have a tendency to think they would just have to be put into the tomb… Again, this is pure speculation. But the main argument is that there was an anointing of the body to be made on sunday morning, so why putting objects into the Shroud BEFORE accomplishing this task ??? Make no sense at all regarding the CONTEXT.

  7. Ron
    October 21, 2011 at 10:37 am

    From what I have researched of Jewish burial customs, it is essential that anything which held/carried the blood of the deceased must be placed with the deceased at burial (As reasonably possible). Whether they had to place the items in the Shroud or left them strewn in the tomb is unknown to me. Maybe someone with better knowledge can answer that question. Personally I think it is more logical that these items would have been placed with the deceased directly and not just left lying around.
    I also would like to say that from the posts above and hearing no rebuttal from Yannick, that no one caught my last post on this topic (More on the freeing of HAL9000).
    As for the thoughts that the items being placed in the Shroud and them having not enough time is hogwash…The burial tomb was situated in a garden! flowers were easily accessible!…Anyone would have had coins on them, especially a rich man. Scriptures do say he had just purchased the burial cloth. Also how much time would these placements take? Seriously? A few minutes maybe? The reasoning for such items as the coins and flowers being there at all, I mentioned in my last post and the reasoning seems quite logical to me. Sure they may have been rushed but basic things needed to be done. I also see no reason why the coins would need to be removed on the Sunday or the flowers for that matter, and if so, so what? Another thing scriptures were not clear on is how many people actually went to the tomb, I would think several people had gone; so lots of folk helping to prepare the rushed burial seems logical and could explain getting everything done quickly. So you see not so simple or illogical.

    Yannick your statement that the images seem to be ‘feeling’ instead of reason is completely off the mark. Specialists have seen these images, not thought they have.The coins are a perfect example, they show up in all 3d images of the face! Maybe not clear, but something is definately there. How do you explain the typo error seen/found on the coin image, which was not even known about until the coins were seen on the Shroud? …Anyways I don’t really want to get into it too far either, like you, but think about it, Is it logical or scientific to say all these artifacts are not there just because you don’t see them? …I agree with you that much more study is warranted and maybe the new hd images and more chemical studies will shed some light on this topic in particular.

    Don’t get me wrong here, I don’t see any of the artifacts when I look at pictures of the Shroud either, but I have seen some ‘things’ in VP image photos, but not conclusively knowing what they are. Some people with direct access and scrutiny of the Shroud, much more then we have ever had, say they have sen these things…So who are we to say they are not there or they are wrong?
    It’s closed minded, unscientific and just plain wrong to refute any so-called findings until ‘ALL’ possible studies have been done. So….

    Again we await the decision from the custodians of the Shroud.

    Ron

  8. Yannick Clément
    October 21, 2011 at 3:44 pm

    The image you think to have seen can be anything really… I respect your point of view but, as I said so many times : regarding the CONTEXT of a partially done burial rite on friday, it’s ridiculous to think they would have put things (specially flowers !) inside the Shroud with the knowledge they must comeback on sunday morning to do an anointing of the body. You can twist it all you want in your head, I repeat : It simply don’t make any sense… Read my first post : I leave the door open to the fact that there’s a slim possibility that some images are really there but, if this is proven one day, it is sure that those images are not related at all to the burial of Jesus-Christ. If we don’t make any special assumption, the only thing that was inside the Shroud was a dead corpse ! Please, never forget or minimized this fact : When you’re IN A HURRY because of the beginning of the Sabbath that is coming (and you already know you will comeback on sunday morning to finish the job), you just put the body into a shroud and leave it on his resting place inside the tomb and that’s it. That’s the most logical way to see the partial rite that was done on friday in regard of the gospel accounts.

    • Ron
      October 22, 2011 at 9:27 am

      I did say I came to no conclusion on things I’ve seen, and seen only on the vp-8 images, so yes they can be anything, but you cannot say they are not there. There are protrusions over the eyes, everyone sees them, whether they are coins or something else is the question. But you can not refute something is there.

      As for the burial and time needed or logic in placing items on the shroud, I think you’ve made your mind up that your right about what you think and any other possiblilty is illogical. That is surely closing your mind, I see no reason to think these items could or would not be placed on the shroud at the time, rushed or not it would take no time whatsoever!. It almost seems as if you didn’t read my posts very carefully, as I think I made a good argument against your ‘logic’. But you seem to ignore my points. Then to cover your ass you state that the objects, if somehow are concluded are there, could have been placed at another time…what hogwash! How ‘possibly’ could you explain these images showing up on the Shroud afterward? Protrusions over the eyes, impossible. Flower images maybe, if flowers had been placed with the shroud rolled up for many years. But I think logically these ‘artifacts’, if there, occurred at the same time as the image formation….I too respect your ideas, but I don’t think your logic is flawed, they are just your assumptions. I and others have points of view also.

      Ron

      • Yannick Clément
        October 22, 2011 at 6:09 pm

        What show up in the 3D images can be anything ! That’s my point. We’ll have to wait until a chemical test could be done on those possible images. And even if the test is conclusive, that will prove nothing at all since those image have not a good chance to be related to the burial of Jesus and could have been formed in the middle ages for all we know ! And don’t make me laugh about the dates that some researchers thought having seen ! It’s ludicrous…

        And I want to see this : think what you want, most people with a logical mind would agree with me on this subject. Do the test and ask people around you. Ask them if it’s logical to put things like flowers or coins inside a shroud WHEN YOU ARE IN A HURRY AND ALSO WHEN YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO COME BACK TO DO AN ANOINTING OF THE BODY !!! Go ahead and ask people that don’t know nothing about the shroud and see what they will say…

        If the people doing the ritual ever intended to used those objects, why is it so hard to understand that putting those things inside the shroud would have been logicaly the last thing they would have done and that ?!? And if it’s true, then, this operation would have been performed on sunday morning, not friday night !

        What I found profoundly interesting with this debate that I’ve started is this : WHEN PEOPLE HAVE MADE UP THEIR MIND ABOUT THE SHROUD, EVEN IF YOU SHOW THEM THE BEST POSSIBLE ARGUMENTS AGAINST THEIR IDEA, YOU LOSE YOUR TIME IF YOU THINK THEY’LL CHANGE THEIR MIND !!!! NO WAY… Once someone have made up his mind, it’s a lost of time.

        From my personal perspective, I wasn’t sure about the flower question until some years ago. After alot of thinking on the subject, I’ve come up with my rational argument that take note OF THE CONTEXT OF THE PARTIAL BURIAL RITE that was done on friday and reported by the evangelists.

        I just want to say this to finish : Because I defend my point of view, I am accused to have a closed mind. Bull… That just prove that I’m a free thinker and not a sheep. And I’m still open to the slim possibility that there is really some images on the shroud but I will never believe that they are related to Jesus burial because that make NO SENSE in the context describe in the gospels. PERIOD.

        And I don’t think science will ever be able to date those images if they are there. How can you be sure that they are related to Jesus burial ??? Because of the little tiny date on the coin ? Don’t make me laugh… :-)

        P.S. : Ron, be sure that I don’t want to attack you or think that you’re a fool or something like that. I respect you but I disagree with you point of view. That’s it and it’s NO BIG DEAL ! We live in a free world right ?

  9. Max Patrick Hamon
    October 22, 2011 at 8:46 am

    Any commentator on the coin-on-eye issue should be here reminded that only a professional numismatist, an archaeological analyst and/or cryptanalyst are truly qualified to determine (from authentic 2D photographic, 3D eidomatic and/or digital squeeze enlargements of the suspected eye areas) whether or not there are indeed incomplete impressions left by ancient coins on the Shroud. “Non true” specialists’ opinion is pure speculation.

    • Ron
      October 22, 2011 at 9:42 am

      No one here has said conclusively that the objects seen over the eyes are coins. Others have, like Dr.Wanger for example and shown some pretty strong evidence to it. But yes, I agree more investigation is strongly needed by specialised experts and hopefully the new high definition photos can reveal ‘clearer’ detail to help in the analysis. The point here I am trying to make is we would be wrong in dismissing these ‘artifact’ claims ‘completely’ at the moment, as that would be pure speculation also. Doing so would be no different then the scourn Sigondo Pia received by many after revealing his discovery.

      Ron

    • Yannick Clément
      October 22, 2011 at 6:30 pm

      And can I remind you that ONLY A CHEMIST CAN PROVE IF WEATHER OR NOT THERE IS AN IMAGE OF THOSE THINGS ON THE SHROUD ?

      You don’t need to be a scientist to be able TO THINK WITH SOME LOGIC !

      Look at Benford and Marino ! They are the best example of what I’m trying to say ! They prove that it’s not necessary to have tons of diplomas to be able TO THINK… And one more thing that people should always remind : Being a scientist is not the proof that someone is necessarily right… And it’s not even a proof that someone use is brain the right way ! ;-)

      Note : before being misinterpreted one more time, I want to say that the last comment wasn’t at all relate to you in any way… My point is this : even if someone is a flower expert or a numismatist, that doesn’t prove one bit that is idea on the subject is better than mine or than yours because science cannot prove right now if those images are really there ! So, anybody’s opinion is as good as anyone else in my book, as long as he is HONEST !

      My friend, we’ll have to wait until direct chemical test can be performed on samples coming from those possible images. Then we can say who is right and who is wrong.

      And one last comment : I don’t think my reflexion was “pure speculation” because I didn’t made any special assumptions. It was just a logical argument against those images.

  10. Max Patrick Hamon
    October 22, 2011 at 9:48 am

    TURIN SHROUD: THE THIRD SIDE OF THE COIN-ON-EYE ISSUE
    Or
    A Full Reappraisal of Intriguing Tiny Bloodstain Patterns

    By Max Patrick HAMON

    Resume: The present paper assumes that its readers have an elementary acquaintance with the Turin Shroud. It begins by defining the coin-on-eye issue and determining the real problem. In a preliminary approach to evaluate the quality of both arch-sceptics and arch-advocates’ main opinions and reasoning, it demonstrates the need to apply to the suspected eye areas, the strict methodology of an eidomatico-numismatic reading grid based on the bloodstain pattern analytical technique. It then proceeds to a full reappraisal of possible coin impressions left on the said areas. Finally, in the light of the new observations and findings, it considers the necessity to integrate the new data within a more coherent archaeological framework.

    Through mere repetition from one author to the other and via a couple of successful websites, many an interpretation, biased result, received idea, pseudo-theory and half truth have become quasi-facts and even at times quasi-dogmas in Shroud literature of all persuasions.
    In connection with the famous linen cloth, the coin-on-eye issue is no exception to this general state of things. For over three decades, arch-advocates adamantly have been thinking they see coin images on the eye areas while arch-sceptics, just as adamantly, have been thinking they do not. Even among “pro-coin-on-eye” researchers, interpretative discrepancies are observed for each eye area. As an archaeocryptologist i.e. as an ancient enigmatic image, inscription and artefact analyst and cryptanalyst, the issue did pique my curiosity. Are the coin images just mere “figures in clouds” or are they real? Could the problem objectively be ever solved?
    In this light, both proponents and opponents must be reminded that there may be a very fine line between “I think I see coin images” and “I think I don’t see coin images”, depending on five crucial parameters: first and foremost, quality of material (is it biased or unbiased?); secondly conditions for observations (are the tools and technique appropriate?); thirdly observer’s particular field or fields of expertise (is s/he the right or the wrong expert/is s/he speaking inside or outside her/his own field or fields of expertise?); fourthly and fifthly observer’s personal approach and vulnerability (is s/he making use or non-use of inductive reasoning/is s/he the victim of intersubjectivity, unconscious and/or ideological biases in the recording, analysis and/or cryptanalysis of data?).
    In order to get out of the research dead-end, I think it is essential now to go beyond the “pro-and anti-coin-on-eye” dichotomy. One must be fully aware that those who claim the ability to identify the presence or the absence of coin impressions left on the Shroud (a theologian, a psychiatrist, a medical doctor, an amateur scholar of numismatics or coin collector, a technical photographer, a church historian, a mathematician, a linguist, a lawyer, a laser physicist or engineer for instance) are definitely not the best qualified Shroud researchers to analyze and/or cryptanalyze ancient images and inscriptions. How can anyone of them turn into a professional numismatist, an archaeological analyst or cryptanalyst overnight? It does take extensive data-analysis and/or -cryptanalysis before you acquire the proper eye-and-brain. Without such a trained eye-and-brain for forms, how can a non-specialist, credibly discriminate between misspelling, misreading and non univocal forms; between mere “figures in clouds” and genuine palaeographic information embedded in visual background noise and random shapes?
    From an archaeocryptologist’s perspective, the present paper aims therefore at making a full reappraisal of intriguing patterns on the eye areas in an attempt to surface more real facts and reach an illuminating synthesis no matter which side of the Shroud authenticity the coin-on-eye issue may fall.

  11. Max Patrick Hamon
    October 22, 2011 at 9:58 am

    This is the first page of the research paper I presented in Torun (Poland)…

  12. Max Patrick Hamon
    October 22, 2011 at 10:32 am

    I am 100% with you Ron.

  13. Max Patrick Hamon
    October 22, 2011 at 10:35 am

    …except when it comes to Dr. Whangher’s coin image extractions.

  14. Max Patrick Hamon
    October 23, 2011 at 6:01 am

    Yannick, you seem to think and write as if you had attended Yeshoua’s burial two thousand years ago. Have you really? Don’t you THINK your ignorance of the Second Temple Judean funerary customs and rituals far exceeds your claimed knowlegde?

    • Yannick Clément
      October 23, 2011 at 6:19 pm

      You seem to have a big knowledge… Fine for you, but prove to me that the pious jews (and not the hellenistic jews) of this time were really using coins over the eyes in their funeral !!! Go ahead. I wait for your scriptural proof that this use was generalized among the jews…

      Anybody who read this could go to this link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon's_obol

      And here what it is writen : “In Judea, a pair of silver denarii were found in the eye sockets of a skull; the burial occurs within a Jewish community, but the religious affiliation of the deceased is unclear. Jewish ritual in antiquity did not require that the eye be sealed by an object, and it is debatable whether the custom of placing coins on the eyes of the dead was practiced among Jews prior to the modern era.”

      Back to my answer to Max : And even if you could prove that this practice was generalized among pious Jews of Jesus time (but I don’t think so !), even if you’re the best expert on the planet about the ancient coins, sorry but I prefer to wait for a confirmation from A CHEMIST ! Until a direct chemical test could be perform, you can prove NOTHING my friend… I hope you can at least agree with me on this ! You’re in the same position as Avinoam Danin for the flowers question…

      To finish, I have 2 questions for you :

      And how in the world a pious Jew like Jesus would need a pagan coin to pay the pagan god is right to cross de Styx river ?????? Explain this one to me… Don’t make any sense to me ! Maybe you think that Jesus, his disciples and his family were hellenistic Jews ?

      And another thing that I would like you to explain : I’m sure you can agree with me that the burial ritual wasn’t completed on friday and the women planed to come back on sunday morning to do an anointing of the body. In THIS CONTEXT, how in the world someone would put coins over the eyes on friday while they knew the job wasn’t completed and they had to come back to finish it on sunday ? Again, don’t make any sense to me !

      But again, I leave to door open that there is really an image there. But even if a chemist could prove this, how can we be sure that it is not just an image of the of eyeballs that were swollen due to blows received before the crucifixion ? To me, this is a far more logical answer than coins over the eyes… But, we live in a free world and you can believe what you want, just like me ! ;-)

      • Ron
        October 23, 2011 at 9:42 pm

        . The pagan ritual was to place coins in the mouth, not on the eyes. Also fact is that several SKULLS found in ossuaries from 1st cen bc and 1st and early 2nd cen ad Jerusalem tombs have been found with coins in them. Mostly from the first temple period. These coins ranged from Roman to Judean coins, so in saying this, two things have been deduced by archeaologists; One- that it may have been common practice to place coins over the deceased eyes during 1st century Jewish burials and 2-the use of Roman or (pagan) coins were also tolerated or not frawned upon. I really cannot understand adamency to why the simple task of putting coins over the eyes or flowers around the body could ahve been done on the Friday?

  15. Max Patrick Hamon
    October 24, 2011 at 9:39 am

    “I’m sure you can agree with me that the burial ritual wasn’t completed on friday and the women planed to come back on sunday morning to do an anointing of the body.” (Yannick’s quote)

    Yannick ALLOW ME to totally disagree with you. I already presented an oral paper on the subject at The 1998 Turin Symposium – June 5-7, 1998. Yeshua’s first burial ritual was completed (he was tightly wrapped up in funerary linens according to the Judean custom). The women’s visit to the tomb on the following Sunday is to be read in the light of a specific Judean tradition which consisted to pay visit to the deceased during the week that followed his death. The use of perfume here was just to prevent bad smells.

  16. Yannick Clément
    October 24, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    Message for Ron : Anyway the people would put coins in a burial garment, it is A PAGAN RITE !!! PERIOD. You see pious Jews do that ? Fine for you, it’s your freedom.

    • Yannick Clément
      October 24, 2011 at 3:26 pm

      Oups… I meant “anywhere” (not anyway).

      • Yannick Clément
        October 24, 2011 at 3:27 pm

        “No matter where” would be better in my phrase. Sorry, I still have some difficulties with Shakespeare language ! ;-)

    • Ron
      October 24, 2011 at 4:20 pm

      And you are wrong in telling yourself that putting coins over the eyes is or was a pagan ritual or strickly limited to pagen cultures. I just finished telling you, if you had read the link you yourself posted, it speaks of the ‘pagen ritual of placing coins in the mouth’ not on the eyes! Also that many skulls of 1st century Jewish burials have been found with coins in the skull cavity. This would mean it was practiced (maybe not generally), and the coins would have to have been placed on the eyes not the mouth for coins to be in the skull cavity!. It was also in the Talmud that the deceased eyes must be closed. I’am sure Joseph of Arimathea would have full knowledge of the burial customs to a tee and would have seen that the eyes would have been closed, using whatever means at his disposal. The point here and I have been trying desperately to get thru is that we all do not know anything for sure! None of us or the experts were there to witness what happened that particular day. So anything we think may have happened is just SPECULATION. So in saying this none of US have the right to say that any ‘artifacts’ seen on the Shroud by some cannot be there either. You believe they are not there, fine that’s your impression but don’t act like you know for sure and any other person is illogical to believe otherwise! Oh by the way the scriptures do state quite clear that Jesus was buried according to Jewish customs that day, What exactly did that mean? You think they just placed him on the sheet, thru it over his head and left? I find it quite hard to believe that a pias man such as Joseph would have left him this way, time waining or not!!…The deciples were’nt exactly known for keeping strick to things anyways. Plus there were concessions in the Torah for burials needed to be done on the eve of Passover.

      • Yannick Clément
        October 24, 2011 at 4:53 pm

        Anything you want to believe, it’s your freedom. But I have the freedom to disagree with you… Here’s the main argument found in the link I wrote down the other day : “Only rarely does the placement of a pair of coins suggest they might have covered the eyes. In Judea, a pair of silver denarii were found in the eye sockets of a skull (note from Yannick : ONE SKULL, NOT THOUSANDS !); the burial occurs within a Jewish community, but the religious affiliation of the deceased is unclear. Jewish ritual in antiquity DID NOT require that the eye be sealed by an object, and it is debatable whether the custom of placing coins on the eyes of the dead was practiced among Jews prior to the modern era.[153] During the 1980s, the issue became embroiled with the controversies regarding the Shroud of Turin when it was argued that the eye area revealed the outlines of coins; since the placement of coins on the eyes for burial is NOT SECURELY ATTESTED IN ANTIQUITY, this interpretation of evidence obtained through digital image processing would not support the shroud’s authenticity.”

        In another part of the text from the link, here what we found : “Jewish ossuaries SOMETIMES (Note from Yannick : Sometimes doesn’t mean that it was a general practice among pious Jews !) contain a single coin; for example, in an ossuary bearing the inscriptional name “Miriam, daughter of Simeon,” a coin minted during the reign of Herod Agrippa I, dated 42/43 AD, was found in the skull’s mouth.[51] Although the placement of a coin within the skull is uncommon in Jewish antiquity and was potentially an act of idolatry (note from Yannick : do you see Joseph of Arimatea commiting an act of idolatry during the burial of the man he thought was possibly the messiah ???), rabbinic literature preserves an allusion to Charon in a lament for the dead “tumbling aboard the ferry and having to borrow his fare.” Boats are sometimes depicted on ossuaries or the walls of Jewish crypts, and one of the coins found within a skull may have been chosen because it depicted a ship.”

  17. Ron
    October 24, 2011 at 5:56 pm

    Yannick seriously I think you may want to refrain from getting your info from wikipedia. Do more research on the Talmud and try to keep up with archaeological findings! There have been many findings of coins in skull cavities in the Jerusalem area. And mostly from the first temple period. Also remember that the practice of using assuaries was lost after that period.Oh and how would you then keep the eyelids closed if not by placing objects on them? Remember Jesus died a violent death, rigor-mortis would have set in almost immediatley, so in saying he most likely died with his eyes open. Meaning they would have needed help being closed.

    Using coins may not have been a common practice but we do know it was practiced.

    • Ron
      October 28, 2011 at 9:31 pm

      Sorry my error; I meant second temple period. Thanks

  1. October 25, 2011 at 8:09 am
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