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Paul Maier at The Veritas Forum: The Real Jesus

August 1, 2014 29 comments

imageJoe Marino writes:

Paul Maier is retired professor of ancient history at Western Michigan University.  He also attended Concordia Seminary in St. Louis.  I’m not sure when the talk was actually given, but it was put on Youtube on 5/11/13.

Maier is very entertaining.  He once wrote an historical novel in which the Shroud was mentioned as having been proven a fake.  I started corresponding with him and he used to receive my print newsletter and also my email bulletins.

Since he was discussing archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus, I thought he might mention the Shroud or I thought someone would bring it up in the Q & A.  Neither happened.  Granted, the Shroud isn’t "new," but I would have thought it was worth a mention.

He did mention several interesting things not directly related to the Shroud.  Regarding the date of the crucifixion, he mentions 2 things.  He said that Josephus wrote that James the Just was murdered 29 years after Jesus’ death.  Everyone gives the date of James’ death as 62, so that would put the crucifixion in AD 33.  He also said that a Greek writer named Phlegon recounted a darkness at noon and an earthquake in Nicea in the 4th month of the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad, which Maier says matches to April, 33 AD.

He also said that the Jordan River Excavations show that the Strata from 33 AD indicates there was an earthquake disruption.  I’m not sure how you get a Strata for a specific year.

The whole thing is about 1 1/2 hours but it’s very informative and very entertaining.

Origin of the Gammadia

July 22, 2014 52 comments

Click on the image for a larger version

imageRuss Breault writes:

I have run across something interesting and am trying to determine if it has significance.  From the 3rd to the 9th centuries it was apparently common in Byzantine iconography for the outer garments, especially representing people with high authority, to be marked with a stylized "L" called a "Gammadia".  No one seems to know what the origin is but is it possible it is derived from the L-shaped pattern of burns on the Shroud?  These holes when seen on the Lierre copy are very pronounced and for centuries, until the 1532 fire would have been the most obvious marking on the cloth. Was it picked up and turned into a symbol for ancient iconographers?  Would some of your participants like to investigate this further?  Here is an example from Ravenna:

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Newly Published Thomas de Wesselow Video

July 10, 2014 7 comments

I have not seen this video before: Thomas de Wesselow discussing his theory that the Shroud of Turin provides an explanation as to why the first Christians came to believe in the Resurrection. It is an IdeaCity series page at Hulu.com. The video was made on June 18, 2012 and just published yesterday at DailyMotion. It runs 22 minutes.

More on the Long Cloth Mandylion

Categories: Art, History Tags: ,

A Long Cloth Mandylion?

July 8, 2014 24 comments

O.K. writes:

Some time ago I found an interesting illustration of a "long" Mandylion. First in the Holger Kersten&Elmar Gruber book "Jezus ofiarą spisku" (the polish edition of The Jesus Conspiracy) I provide a scan from it [Illustration1]. The picture is not adressed anywhere in the book, and as the source is given simply "Bibliothéque Nationale". The same picture is reproduced in Antonio Teseo blog, who gives the source as Bibliothéque Nationale, ms lat.2688, dated 1280-85.

Another time when I saw this illustration is in Francesac Saracino 2007 documentary LaSacra Sindone; la storia. [Illustration2]. It confirmed that the illustration is generally monochromatic. However it is certain that the cloth is "long" (just look on the position of hands and the frame [Illustration3]), even though nothing more except the face is seen on it. It shows that the cloth have been considered by some as much larger than often claimed, larger than just handkerchief. Possibly large enough to contain the image of the whole body (as implied by Codex Vossianus and Ordericus Vitalis), even though, as I said, only face is depicted on the presented illustration.

Illustration 1:

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Illustration 2:

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Illustration 3:

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It’s a total feeling sort of thing.

June 30, 2014 1 comment

imageBT writes from New London:

I truly appreciate every one of the 300 comments in the recent thread about the Hungarian Pray Manuscript, particularly the skeptical ones. I read them carefully. I also considered the evidence from the Stavronikita Epitaphios. I had always thought the illustration in the codex was possible evidence for the shroud’s existence well before the date determined by radiocarbon testing. But I was cautious. I sometimes wondered if it was really true that features found in the drawing requiring knowledge of the shroud were indeed there because of such knowledge. I was 75% convinced they were. Now, I am 99% convinced.

Yeah, me too.

And you could almost see a small smile in Hugh Farey’s face as he responded to daveb:

You did help. The Byzantine herringbone pattern is another chip on the pile on the authentic side of the balance. It’s still not enough for me, as you predicted, but it’s more evidence. I like evidence!

Hugh is, of course, referring to the pattern on the Stavronikita Epitaphios.

We are talking about two threads: 1)Discussion about the Pray Codex and it’s relation to the Shroud is over? and 2) Comment Promoted: The Stavronikita Epitaphios. O.K. got the first one going. I count 297 comments. That has to be a record. DaveB got the second one going.

It’s a total feeling sort of thing. I can’t prove it. I won’t try. I think the Hungarian Pray Manuscript does represent the shroud. So does the burial sheet in the Stavronikita Epitaphios. I’m convinced.

Comment Promoted: The Stavronikita Epitaphios

June 28, 2014 14 comments

imageDaveb writes in the Discussion about the Pray Codex and it’s relation to the Shroud is over? thread:

Some two years ago on this site, there was considerable discussion [Herringbone Weave within Stavronikita Epitaphios (Revisited)] on the Epitaphios Stavronikita. Several features necessarily connect it to the Shroud, one in particular was an undeniable replication of the herring-bone twill. Other features included a bloodied, scourged, prostrate Christ with crossed hands over the groin. Despite the many similarities, thumbs are nevertheless clearly visible. However, there was clearly disagreement about the date of provenance, some asserting it as late 15th – 16th centuries, while others insisted that it was as early as 12th century, a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. I have attempted to pursue this further via the web, but the only references to this particular epitaphios all relate back to Dan’s web-site only. There appear to be no other web references to it. I can’t even find it on any of the Mt Athos Stavronikita monastery web-sites.

There were several other comments relating to herring-bone twill representations, including several from Max PH referring to the St Mark’s 7th century carving. Someone had found a reference to the Stavronikita in a university library, but the matter of dating it still remains unresolved.

Even though the TS was known in the west by the 14th century, would monks or artisans at Mt Athos be likely to use this knowledge as a model for an epitaphios for use in Greek Orthodox liturgies at this time? I think not! A rational explanation for whatever model was used for it, demands that some remembered features of the Shroud cloth when it was under Greek custody influenced its design.

Meantime, someone may like to pursue the date of provenance of the epitaphios stavronikita with better success and more conclusivity than I’ve been able to manage.

I had said then that the implications are significant. Look very carefully at the weave pattern on the burial shroud pictured (two photographs) and the enlarged section showing the cloth below the shoulder.

Photo 1:image

Photo 2:

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Section beneath shoulder showing herringbone:

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