Dear William Bell:
I am impressed by your blog, The Lessons of Evolution. You are, according to your blog, thirteen years old and hope to become an evolutionary biologist. You write well and seem to have a wonderful grasp of facts, logic and scientific reasoning. I wish you the best of success.
It is unlikely I would have ever encountered your public blog had you not mentioned the Shroud of Turin. Thanks to Google, I did. And I will comment on that portion of your posting. First, however, I notice that you have two survey questions on your blog and here are my answers: To the first question, given the choices available, my answer is that I believe in evolution. I suspect that I believe in it in the same way that you do. As for the second question, my answer is that I am a theist. Theist, however, is not specific enough. I am a practicing Christian, more specifically, an Episcopalian. At one time, certainly when I was thirteen and shared your skepticism, I would have found those two answers incompatible. Now, more than fifty years later, I find nothing in science and cannot imagine anything in science, that contradicts my faith; nothing in evolution, nothing in a possible never-beginning-never-ending multiverse, nothing in Hawking’s cosmology, nothing in neurology, nothing in M theory, etc. etc. etc.
I noticed on your blog that you have read Richard Dawkins’ new book. Excellent, don’t you agree? Much better than his “Delusion.”
You mentioned Prof. Baima Bollone in your posting and expressed doubts about his findings pertaining to the famous miracle at Lanciano, Italy. I share your skepticism. But I must pick on a couple of things. First of all, you write, “it was only experimented on by one scientist who happened to also have worked on the shroud of turin.”
Some of the greatest science the world has ever seen was “only experimented on by one scientist” – at least initially. What we want to know is how right or wrong was he. Science has created many safeguards. Is Bollone’s work peer-reviewed in secular scientific journals? Can his experiments be duplicated? Are there similar studies that confirm or challenge his findings? This is what your readers want to know.
To imply anything because Bollone also worked on the Shroud of Turin is unfair. There have been many dozens of scientists, in many fields, who have worked on the Shroud. They represent some of the finest academic, government and corporate science centers of competency in the world. I have met many of them. I have had discussions with some of them over drinks at a bar – you can’t do that yet. I’ve corresponded with others by email. Most of those whom I have come to know, but not all, would answer those two questions you ask on your blog exactly as I have.
One outstanding example of a scientist who worked on the Shroud of Turin, is Raymond Rogers (1927-2005), a lifelong, distinguished chemist at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. He had been honored as a Fellow of the prestigious Los Alamos lab, part of UCLA and once upon a time the home of the Manhattan Project to build the first atomic bomb. In his home state of New Mexico, Rogers had been a charter member of the Coalition for Excellence in Science Education. For several years, he served on the Department of the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board as a civilian with the rank equivalency of Lieutenant General. He had published over fifty peer-reviewed scientific papers in science journals. He was also a member of the skeptical organization, New Mexicans for Science and Reason (NMSR). This partial description of the organization is telling:
We are skeptical . . . of those groups who misuse and misrepresent science. We oppose the use of fabrication, flawed logic, distortion of facts, and pseudoscientific propaganda by any and all groups who twist science to suit their own ends, whether they are creationists, advocates of intelligent design, proponents of the idea that aliens crashed at Roswell, extreme academic cultural critics who deny objective reality, or promoters of unproved claims . . .
NMSR is a science organization; it is not a civil liberties or an anti-religious organization. Several of our members, like scientists in general, belong to various religious groups. We see no inherent conflict between science and religion, in that science concerns the natural world (the one accessible to our senses and instruments), while religion concerns the possibility of a supernatural world accessible only through faith. While we respect and cherish religious freedom, we stand ready to challenge those who promote bad science to further their goals, religious or otherwise.
In 1978, Rogers had been selected as one of many scientists asked to go to Turin and study the Shroud up and close. From his work on the Shroud, Rogers’ only substantive conclusion was that the Shroud images were not painted. He did not then offer an opinion on its authenticity. Following the carbon dating, he accepted the conclusion that the Shroud was medieval. He had complete respect for the technology and the quality of work done by the carbon dating labs. In 2005, Philip Ball, a former editor of Nature, that most prestigious international journal of science, wrote in Nature Online that Rogers “has a history of respectable work on the shroud dating back to 1978, when he became director of chemical research for the international Shroud of Turin Research Project.”
Kim Johnson of NMSR wrote in an obituary for Rogers on the organization’s web site:
He was a Fellow at Los Alamos National Laboratory, and tried to be an excellent, open minded scientist in all things. In particular, he had no pony in the "Shroud of Turin" horserace, but was terribly interested in making sure that neither proponents nor skeptics let their scientific judgment be clouded by their preconceptions. He just wanted to date and analyze the thing. He died on March 8th from cancer. He was a good man, and tried his best to do honest science.
William, you might be happy to know that Rogers spent a great deal of time and effort trying to make sure that creationism and ID were not taught in New Mexico’s public schools.
Though Rogers had stopped doing research on the Shroud, he had maintained a passing interest, in part because no one had figured out how the images had been made. He was quite sure that they were not somehow miraculously formed. He was annoyed by claims from those who thought they could explain away the carbon dating with pseudoscientific or non-scientific explanations. They were, in his words, the “lunatic fringe” of shroud research.
One hypothetical suggestion, seemingly off the wall, had been gaining traction, particularly on the Internet. Two researchers, Sue Benford and Joe Marino, were suggesting that the sample used in the carbon dating was significantly not part of the shroud but instead part of a medieval repair, a section of the cloth mended using a technique known as invisible reweaving. Rogers thought this was ludicrous, just so much more lunatic fringe thinking. He thought that he could prove they were wrong. He had in his possession some small thread samples taken from the shroud at a spot adjacent to where the carbon dating sample had been snipped away. It would be a simple matter to show that there was no evidence of mending.
As it turned out, Benford and Marino seemed to be onto something. In 2002, after considerable research, Rogers, along with Anna Arnoldi, a chemistry professor at the University of Milan, wrote a paper that strongly suggested that Benford and Marino were right. More work needed to be done, however, and Rogers continued to study the matter with material that had been saved from the actual cuttings from which the carbon dating samples were taken. In January, 2005, following a lengthy peer-review process, Thermochimica Acta, an international journal from Elsevier, the world’s largest publisher of scientific journals, published a paper by Rogers entitled, “Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin.” In it Rogers wrote:
The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis/ms proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud.
This wasn’t religious opinion. In fact, it wasn’t that much of a scientific opinion of the sort that newspapers and television like. If Rogers could have proven that the shroud was the genuine article or at least that it came from the time of Christ, this would have been exciting news. As it was he was only saying, that for all practical purposes, the 1988 carbon dating was meaningless. It was pure science. It was also a personal admission that he had been wrong in thinking that the carbon dating was the end of the story; that the shroud was certainly a medieval fake.
I don’t know what Rogers might have thought about Baima Bollone’s work on Lanciano. I rather suspect that he would have thought it part of the lunatic fringe. But as a true scientist he would have wanted to see the evidence, see the scientific findings published in a peer-reviewed journal and see if the work could be reproduced.
William, you also wrote: “There is no evidence even that it [=Lanciano] is not a hoax . . .” If you had said that you think it is a hoax or believe it is or assume it is, I might agree. But I cannot agree that the lack of evidence can be thought of as a meaningful argument. Isn’t that exactly one of the things you find problematic with Behe’s ID theory. Follow the evidence, never the lack of evidence.
Not too long ago, I had the interesting experience of spending an evening with two very interesting brothers. Both were scientists. One was a Catholic priest. One was an Atheist. The priest did not believe that the Shroud was authentic. He thought the evidence was insufficient. His brother, on the other hand, thought the evidence overwhelmingly supported authenticity. His difficulty as an Atheist was to separate his conclusions from any supernatural implications. He felt he had done so. I thought he had too.
He based his assessment on the work of Ray Rogers. Like this particular Atheist, I also have reservations about the Shroud’s supernatural implications. But the difference for me is that like the Atheist’s brother, the priest, I believe in God, in Christ, in the Resurrection – Shroud or no Shroud.
But I really think the Shroud is genuine. I think the evidence is overwhelming.
BTW: You make a good point about blood type AB. Al Adler, a blood specialist from Western Connecticut State University, and another Shroud scientist, pointed out that all old blood tended to test AB because the compounds that generated the test response were also in the cell walls and if the walls degraded the blood started to test AB. But it was possible, he felt, to discern false AB positive readings from real AB type readings. Do you have any more information on this? And I wonder if Bollone was aware of this. Have you read his paper?
Congratulations on a wonderful blog. Good luck to you.
Andrew Silverman commenting on a story about free will versus determinism. Andrew is known to me as a fellow member of the Shroud of Turin Science Group (SSG):
You could argue that mankind has made God in our own image which is an observation about the way we perceive. For example before Copernicus many people used to believe that the Sun orbited around a stationary Earth. Their error does not disprove the existence of the Sun.
Note: In error, I originally wrote Andrew Sullivan rather than Andrew Silverman. Andrew Sullivan is a journalist writing for The Atlantic. I was not confused, just careless.
Amy Kotlarz in the Catholic Courier in an article entitled, “Black Catholics’ gifts celebrated:”
PITTSFORD — As a self-confessed "Shroudie" with a T-shirt from the Redemptorists’ Holy Shroud Guild to prove it, Deacon Tony Mercadel is clearly passionate about the Shroud of Turin.
He can talk for hours about the controversy over the burial shroud that many believe once wrapped Jesus. The centuries-old, bloodstained cloth reveals an image of a man who appears to have been whipped across his back and legs, pierced in his side, punctured in a circle around his head as if with a crown of thorns and crucified through his wrists.
Arguments have raged for decades over whether the shroud is a religious relic and evidence of the resurrection of Jesus, or one of the greatest hoaxes perpetrated in history, Deacon Mercadel said.
"If nothing else, it is an excellent resource for meditation on what Jesus went through to bring salvation to all of us," he said.
Deacon Mercadel noted that John’s Gospel records that some apostles believed in the Resurrection after viewing the empty cloth that had wrapped Jesus’ body.
The Shroud of Turn also was responsible for a conversion experience for Deacon Mercadel’s son, Daryl, who said viewing an image of it in college led him to get fired up about his faith — years before his father began studying the shroud in depth, he noted.
The shroud, Daryl Mercadel said, allows him to see an image of Jesus that is neither white nor black.
"It bolsters my faith," he said.
Steve, we would like to read it, shortcomings and all: Suburban Journals | News | POKIN AROUND: The passing of my father; our bond as writers.
What I uniquely shared with my father is "The Shroud." I am the only person to have read his one and only opus. I first read it and typed it more than 10 years ago when it was a screenplay. He unsuccessfully tried to sell it and spent the next decade recasting it as a novel. He loved the work; it was his retirement hobby/job.
Since June I have been typing it for him. I am on page 167 of what appears to be 360 pages. I say "appears to be" because everything is handwritten and I’ve already come across an instance where he mislabeled the page count – going from page 137 back to page 132.
Dad did not use a computer. He used white-out. I can hold a page to the light and count 21 blotches of editing.
The novel is big, epic and traces the history of the Shroud of Turin, which some say is the burial shroud of Jesus Christ. Early on one of the main characters is Byzantine Emperor Romanus Lekapenos, a tough old bird with whom, I can tell, my father identified.
I marvel at the parts that are masterfully written. I shared my admiration with my father. But the book has its shortcomings. These, I did not share with him.
In the rush to the emergency room Monday my father, a man with few assets, scribbled a brief will. He wanted his three sons to share equally in any proceeds from the future publication of his literary efforts. I now know, as editor and typist, I had a deadline.
Steve, thanks for sharing your father with us.
The most useful skill we could teach is the habit of asking oneself and others, how do you know? If knowledge comes from intuition or anecdote, it is likely wrong. For one thing, the brain stinks at distinguishing patterns from randomness (no wonder people can’t tell that the climate change now underway is not just another turn in the weather cycle). For another, the brain overestimates causality. In one neat experiment, participants rewarded students’ punctuality or punished tardiness for 15 days, then evaluated whether carrots or sticks worked better. Verdict: punishment. Unbeknownst to the “teachers,” the exercise had been rigged: students arrived at random times (generated by computer) unrelated to what teachers did. Yet the teachers believed their intervention had an effect. (A nickel says parents fall for the same illusion.) Science is not a collection of facts but a way of interrogating the world. Let’s teach kids to ask smarter questions.
Ever read one of Joe’s books?
I have not read the book. I have some reservations, particularly the Shroud of Turin connection. But this needs to examined. Stay tuned.
Available at Amazon, etc. Also available for Kindle (Kindle, iphone, ipad, etc.)
Could CNN have done a worse job of reporting. I have numbered the first three, single sentence paragraphs.
- Stephen Hawking is wrong, Pope Benedict XVI said Thursday – God did create the universe.
- The pope didn’t actually mention the world-famous scientist, who argues in a book published last month that the laws of physics show there is no need for a supreme being to have brought the world into existence.
- In fact, Benedict specifically praised – and blessed – science and scientists in an address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.
Paragraph 2 corrects paragraph 1. Paragraph 3, which should have been the lede since that is what the story is really about. But a bit of the ways down the page the editors of CNN tried to create a disagreement by revisiting the now tired story about Stephen Hawking’s book, which, while great, had nothing to do with the what the pope was talking about.
This was followed by well over a thousand comments proving that no one who believes in God can convince an Atheist otherwise or that an Atheist can convince a believer to not believe. Half of the comments on both sides of the debate were meaningless. Good show CNN!
I have no problem with what Hawking proposes and nonetheless unwaveringly believing in God. Am I the only one? Read Pope praises science, but insists God created world – CNN Belief Blog – CNN.com Blogs
I’d love to be in Ms. Kraft’s Social Studies class at Plymouth High School in Canton, Michigan, today, Thursday, October 28.
- Discuss article – pottery and painting
- Pottery seriation – images
- Pottery seriation – images
- Pottery Sherd Lab
- Pottery Sherd Lab
- Shroud of Turin
- Go over group quizzes
- Dating examples
- Active Reading – due Monday
Father Frank Pavone is the national director of Priests for Life, the largest Catholic, pro-life organization in the country. Here he reacts to the upcoming Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert rally in Washington.
Now when our religion tells us that we can know God’s revealed truth, that is not an invitation to shut down the mind or stop the thinking process. Precisely the opposite is the case. When God speaks, the mind goes to work. Revealed truth opens vistas to the mind that it could not reach before, and when we take revealed truth and think about it, compare it to what we know by reason, and compare one revealed truth to another, we are engaging in the discipline of theology.
So Bart and Homer Simpson are Catholic – Did the Shroud of Turin beach towel have anything to do with it?
How did we miss this on Oct 18. According to CNN:
"Few know it, and he does all he can to hide it. But it is true," Luca Possati writes in Sunday’s Osservatore Romano.
OK, Homer snores through the Rev. Lovejoy’s sermons.
Yes, he relentlessly humiliates his evangelical Christian neighbor Ned Flanders.
But the show is one of the few in American life that takes religion seriously, a Jesuit is arguing – from grace before meals to an (admittedly off-kilter) belief in the afterlife.
The article riffs on the 2005 episode "The Father, the Son and the Holy Guest Star," in which Homer and Bart flirt with the idea of converting to Catholicism (and Homer makes an outrageous confession).
Homer decides against it with "a cathartic D’oh!," Possati writes. But the Rev. Francesco Occhetta praises the episode – and the series –anyway, Possati writes.
Occhetta wrote about The Simpsons in the most recent edition of Italian Jesuit magazine Civilita Cattolica, Possati says.
Remember when Homer Simpson’s neighbor, Ned Flanders, had his Shroud of Turin beach towel stolen? I wonder if that episode, five years ago, had anything to do with this story.
Yes, CNN is reporting this: D’oh! Vatican declares Bart and Homer Simpson Catholic – CNN Belief Blog – CNN.com Blogs
It is hard to imagine even reading this book, Lost at Sea, by Bernie Schwindt, after reading this blurb from the publisher’s website. Maybe the publisher isn’t being fair to Mr. Schwindt. “Bernie, can you send me something I can understand?”
Mocked, scourged, and spit on, He is nailed and raised up into the branches of a tree where one side demands He get down to prove He is the Messiah; while the other side, after 1988 years of decay from this crossover point, admits to these huge carbon-dating errors and ask to be remembered at the end of time.
And this: What does this mean?
LOST AT SEA is about the transformation of Jesus upon this shroud of mystery where 12% more radioactive C14 atoms are metered in this spectrum by the accelerator mass spectrometer than on the stump of the tree Christ is crucified upon: Hidden with chalk slammed across this chalkboard down in the basement of a museum —with exclamation ranging from 1260-1390! — carbon-dating reveals the Trinity bursting into light, as these souls saw the Trinity roar up into light in 1945 AD in the branches of this bush where theses commanding tongues of fire burn away in this wilderness.
And this from a sample page:
After He shed His blood around His doorway where His crucified image appears upon His burial cloth, all hell breaks loose around this controversial three-dimensional negative image where the “radioactive mass of C14 atoms” in this carbon spectrum (C12 + C13 + C14) is charged and accelerated through this magnetic field to strike this instrument head square in the face inside this accelerator mass spectrometer, where it bears witness to the face of Truth crucified: The radioactivity level metered around His image shoots sky-high with 11.6 % more radioactive C14 atoms metered in His spectrum than on the stump of the tree up on which He is crucified.
With 11.6 % more C14 atoms metered around His image than upon the stump of the tree Christ is crucified upon, this “radiocarbon date” shoots up – at the center of this storm – 1292 radiocarbon years into the future … far away from where this soul below denies —with exclamation, “I tell you I do not know this man!”
The accelerator mass spectrometer meters that this mysterious image was fabricated – not in ad 30, but some 1230 – 1360 carbon years into the future – far from the stump of the tree they cut down for Him to carry up to this Place of the Skull, where they challenge Him below to get down from the cross.
Bernie, if you can provide some substantive explanations, I’ll publish them. For now, I’m stuck scratching my head.
A reader writes:
The picture you feature as a new popular picture of Jesus is a painting by an artist named Ariel Aggemian in 1935. He used both the Shroud of Turin and the St. Catherine Monastery icon “The Pantocrator,” circa A.D. 550. Strangly this treatment made to look more shroud-like seems more popular than the full painting.
Full painting below. Any more data? Bigger Size.
If you are near Wichita, you should try to make it. From what I’ve heard from people in the know, this is an excellent presentation
The Campus Ministry office at Newman University will present “Trial of the Shroud of Turin” at 7 p.m., Wednesday, Oct. 27, in the Dugan-Gorges Conference Center inside the Dugan Library on the campus of Newman University. The event is free and open to the public. The event will feature Larry Schauf presenting an examination of the evidence of whether the Shroud of Turin is the true burial cloth of Jesus or a medieval hoax.
Schauf, a board member of the Shroud of Turin Education and Research Association and a former federal prosecutor, will present the strongest evidence for both sides of the debate. At the conclusion of the presentation, the audience will serve as a jury and cast their votes based on what they have learned. A question and answer session will be held while the “ballots” are counted.
You really want to read the entire posting by Damn Swede. (Yes, of course, we are talking here about pareidolia):
For those unfamiliar, the long story is here. For those who want the gist, a salt stain appeared under the Fullerton Avenue underpass in the shape of the Virgin Mary. This caused quite a stir, hundreds of people gathered 24 hours a day for weeks straight when it first appeared, and even now, five years later, the site is still maintained. Fresh and fake flowers, candles and the like are constantly replenished.
. . . As a Protestant, I was obsessed with PROOF. Substantative, real, evidence that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that my beliefs were valid. This involved a lot of science and historical data and, armed with this information, I got into more than one arguement about the topic. It was stressful.
. . . One day I was listening to Dr. Clark Carleton’s podcast on Ancient Faith Radio. He was talking about the debate about whether or not the Shroud of Turin was, in fact, the image of Christ. He explained the history behind the controversey, which includes radiocarbon dating and passionate disagreements from both sides. In the end, he explained that the Orthodox view is – quite simply – that it doesn’t matter either way. Instead, we can see evidence of Christ in it and that’s enough.
Yes, I agree.
Let me tell you, it is very freeing to be relieved of the burden of proof. I heard Fr. Joseph Honeycutt speak yesterday and he said something that struck me. “It’s not that you have all the answers, once you convert to Orthodoxy,” he said, “It’s just that you have different questions.”
So, is the Virgin of Fullerton Avenue 100%-beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt really a sign from above?
Read the full posting Damn Swede » Reverence
Several people wrote to say that John Jackson or John Jackson and Eric Jumper or John Jackson, Eric Jumper and others created the sculpture in the Air Force Academy Chapel of Jesus based on the Shroud of Turin.
John German tells us via Flickr:
[It] is a fiberglass mold of a box cardboard bas relief statue made from a photo of the Shroud of Turin. It was made shortly after the 3-D characteristic of the Shroud was first discovered in 1978. A great photograph of the cardboard version in in the June 1980 issue of National Geographic. I was one of three scientists who made the original cardboard statue.
Here is another picture:
So far, it looks great. There is much to investigate and report about this new Shroud of Turin website. In particular, the 3D content on this site needs to be understood. For instance, as with the Petrus Soons’ site, we need to know how much of the 3D image generation is algorithmic and how much is artful adjustments.
Regrettably, those red and cyan 3D glasses you bought for Soons’ site or the glasses included with all those 3D DVDs (old technology) that you can buy at Best Buy and Amazon won’t work here. For some reason this site has chosen to use red and green glasses, which are not as common. Red and green are a predecessor of red and cyan and are not as good for computer screens. You can get red and green glasses, however, from various internet retailers.
spectacular . . . actually four chapels in one. The main floor houses the Protestant Chapel, while down below there is a Catholic Chapel and a Jewish Chapel (synagogue?) and a Buddhist chapel (?). Note no mosque here.
It is the Catholic chapel (part two) that caught my attention:
necessarily more like a grotto chapel with a flat roof, since it is beneath the Protestant Chapel. Its acoustics are far better than the Protestant Chapel, and it has a spectacular mosaic altar wall, and very unique representations of the stations of the cross, as you will see.
What especially caught my attention was the last photograph:
What you see in the back of this shot is the famous holographic 3-D image of the image on the Shroud of Turin.
Well, not exactly holographic (ala Petrus Soons questionable results). But definitely 3D, definitely based on the 3D data in the Shroud’s image.
See all the pictures at The Cadet Chapel At the Air Force Academy— Part Two – Ben Witherington on the Bible and Culture
When Father Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître, a Catholic priest who happened to be a brilliant Harvard and MIT trained astrophysicist proposed what we have come to call the Big Bang, his idea was not well received. In fact, the term Big Bang was ridicule heaped on Lemaître by the British cosmologist Fred Hoyle. The prevailing ‘scientific’ view was that the universe was static, not something with a beginning. Even Einstein was reluctant to accept Lemaître’s proposal, at first. But Pope Pius XII referred to Lemaître’s findings as a scientific validation of a part of the Catholic faith. Lemaître was put in the spot of having to clarify and publically disagree with the pope. He wrote:
As far as I can see, such a theory remains entirely outside any metaphysical or religious question. It leaves the materialist free to deny any transcendental Being. He may keep, for the bottom of space-time, the same attitude of mind he has been able to adopt for events occurring in nonsingular places in space-time. For the believer, it removes any attempt at familiarity with God . . . it is consonant with the wording of Isaiah’s speaking of a "Hidden God," hidden even from the beginning of creation.
There is a lot of wisdom in the words of Lemaître that we might apply to our thinking about the Shroud of Turin. I think we make a mistake when we try to prove the Resurrection, as some do. We should observe, hypothesize, perhaps experiment and try to explain the image. We should do so without religious or anti-religious prejudice. We should let the evidence lead where it will. It may lead nowhere: to a "Hidden God,” hidden even from the best of science.
Comment promoted: Theologian wants to know if the Shroud of Turin is in Andrew Sullivan’s receding cave.
So is the shroud shrouded in the darkness of the constantly receding cave? And is the shroud more mystery than clarity? Oh, yes! How wonderfully it is an exercise in intellectual sifting.
I hope that we never figure it out. Thanks for posting this. Andrew is oh-so right!
But I do hope we figure it out. I’m not sure, however, that we will. See Intellectual Sifting: Get Real – A Lesson for Shroud of Turin Studies « Shroud of Turin Blog