the whole point of a miracle, of course, is that it cannot be scientifically proven. And every miracle which does get subjected to scientific observation (say, the shroud of Turin), of course proves to be something quite, dully, mundane.
Go read his blog. Yes, we certainly have different religious beliefs. But, go read his blog. Why study. Why not learn what you can. Obviously, he has not really studied the Shroud. I’m not suggesting that he accept its authenticity. I doubt he would. But the Shroud, even without the need for miraculous explanations, is anything but mundane. It has an intriguing history and a wealth of science behind it. To study it poses extraordinary questions without adequate answers, at least so far. There is nothing mundane about.
The overall posting is good. I agree with much of what he says. By definition the Shroud is not a miracle. There may be a miracle at play, but we don’t know that for certain. And that means it is not mundane. Read: Why the judiciary is the only, frighteningly flimsy, barrier between us and a return to the Dark Ages. « The Platonist
Bobby Johnson, technologyl correspondent for the Guardian:
For anyone who loves new technology, getting the first touch of a new Apple device is a little like laying hands on the Shroud of Turin, or seeing a unicorn: the first experience of a mythical object imbued with miraculous properties.
Does that mean it is a medieval fake or the real thing?
Cesare Emiliani, Department of Geological Sciences, University of Miami, world renowned geologist, known for his work on marine sediments and plate tectonics, in a letter to Nature following the carbon dating of the Shroud in 1988.
Religion is perfect and unchangeable, the work of God. Science is imperfect, and, I suspect, the work of the Devil. The two should never be mixed. The scientists who participated in the dating of the Shroud of Turin should >repent and promise to never do anything like that again. Creationists are even more guilty, for they have been mixing science and religion for years and years. They should abandon their evil practices forthwith, last the wrath of God descend upon them like a ton of bricks.
Fun read. I recommend reading Wizard of Otin: Theme Thursday (Felt & Impression)
His hands trembled as he prepared to cut the linen. The surface of it was fuzzy, almost having a felt like quality to it. There were so many eyes upon him that droplets of sweat began to form on his forehead. . . .
. . . As he readied himself to make the cut, he paused for a moment to gaze at the impression that was frozen into the fabric. Brown blood stains formed an outline of a horrible death. He turned his attention back to what he was doing, but before he could collect his evidence, there arose an uproar from the crowd.
Pope John Paul II is on record as saying, "The Church has no specific competence to pronounce on these questions. She entrusts to scientists the task of continuing to investigate.”
And, indeed, most scientists who are doing research on the Shroud and sincerely think the Shroud of Turin is probably authentic — there are many – would like to see more testing.
Over at Namse’s Blog is a well written article on the Shroud. It concludes:
These findings are of great importance, not only because they shed light on the 150 year gap, but mainly because they suggest the existence of the shroud in a historical date before the one indicated by the carbon 14 test of 1988.
Full posting: THE SHROUD OF TURIN « Namse’s Blog
Sometimes a comment is so much better than the original posting it needs to brought to the top. The following comment from Andrea Nicolotti, who has an Italian language website, Christianismus – studi sul cristianesimo e le sue origini, is such a comment.
Andrea concludes with, “PS Forgive my English!” No need for that. It is quite good. Two points struck me as particularly important. I quote them first:
In reality the continuous use of “possibilist” sentences is the style of the entire [Frale] book, where the repeated use the “if” and the “perhaps” in insistent way, is aimed at creating the impression of strong possibility in the reader. . . . If we try to eliminate all the sentences with a “perhaps”, we will cancel the 90% of the Frale’s books.
I have analyzed some of the modern high quality pictures, looking for the handwritings. The most greater part of the presumed signs are clearly fold marks of the shroud or some protuberant threads that, illuminated by the light used by Enrie, appear clearer and therefore dark on the negative image.
There is more. So here is the entire comment in response to other comments:
Before I answer to the two objections:
1) Ad hominem. I have not spoken about Marion to create an argumentum ad hominem, but because Frale introduces Marion as person totally neutral, impartial and disinterested. Before introducing his work, she reconsidered the credibility of Marastoni and Orecchia because they are Catholic; then she created a situation of expectation in the reader, introducing Marion as a super partes scholar. But Marion was a person very interested to the defence of the shroud. The fact that has written some books on the relics, certainly cannot mark him out as an “independent” scientist. Was he agnostic? Strange. He wrote a book on the shroud not limiting himself to speaking of his studies on the handwritings, but making the history of the shroud and concluding with the hypothesis of the resurrection of Christ. If Frale suggests an argumentum pro homine, I use an argumentum ad hominem.
2) “It’s clear it’s just a possibility, not a certitude for Barbara Frale”, you say. In reality the continuous use of “possibilist” sentences is the style of the entire book, where the repeated use the “if” and the “perhaps” in insistent way, is aimed at creating the impression of strong possibility in the reader. The large majority of the possibilities, in the following pages will be turned into reality. If we try to eliminate all the sentences with a “perhaps”, we will cancel the 90% of the Frale’s books. Just against this system (creating an historical reconstruction using undemonstrated hypotheses) prof. Vallerani has written a very incisive review.
The main point is that Frale holds possible that handwriting of the I century can be legible in XIII and then disappear forever. Nobody has ever spoken of them, nobody has ever described them, nobody has ever seen them. The consequences of the fire in Chambery? Someone should explain us *how* the writings did form, and as *why* they disappear. Marion and Frale say that the handwriting possesses the same nature of the body’s image. If the fire has modified the handwritings, has modified also the image of the body. But why? How?
About Capasso: Frale “showed him the handwritings “discovered” by Marion and Courage in a single-blind experiment”? The palaeography is not similar to the medicine. The original is important. Frale has not presented to Capasso the shroud or photos of the shroud, but photographic manipulations of the shroud. The handwritings that are reproduced in the Frale’s book, was prepared by Marion, going over the lines again; if one looks only at the “original” photos, he doesn’t read anything.
Moreover: some of the researchers quoted in the book that I have contacted, are completely against the Frale’s thesis, and in some case spoke with me in terms of “dishonesty”.
The other objections remain: the handwritings do not exist, it is not explained how they formed, the handwritings are integrated in a completely arbitrary way, they are full of errors, the Frale doesn’t know the Hebrew language, the external side of the shroud is completely white, nobody sees the handwritings on the high quality pictures, it is known that the images of Enrie are defective, etc. etc.
I have analyzed some of the modern high quality pictures, looking for the handwritings. The most greater part of the presumed signs are clearly fold marks of the shroud or some protuberant threads that, illuminated by the light used by Enrie, appear clearer and therefore dark on the negative image. It is not necessary to ask a palaeographer to see it.
PS Forgive my English!
Here is the original posting: More: Death Certificate on the Shroud of Turin? « Shroud of Turin Blog
MUST LISTEN TO: This is a discussion on the Shroud of Turin on Coast to Coast AM with host George Noory (pictured) and guests Barrie Schwortz and Jerome Corsi. Coast to Coast AM airs on more than 500 stations in the U.S., as well as Canada, Mexico and Guam, and is heard by nearly three million weekly listeners. Broadcasting live Monday thru Sunday from 1 – 5 a.m. ET, it is the most listened to overnight radio program in North America.
- You can go directly to the show’s site to this broadcast for streaming or MP3 segments of the show. There are four downloadable MP3s.
- There are twelve segments on YouTube. You may also go directly to YouTube and enter the following search argument: “Coast to Coast Shroud of Turin Barrie Schwortz”
With YouTube, on the first segment you will probably want to move the place marker forward to 4:24 to avoid some unrelated chatter. These are not all labeled but they are in order.